Ecoli,
I too an a bike nut and train nut.
Two years ago I visited the Golden Spike Tower in North Platte, Nebraska. I had my bike with me. Sunday morning, after having spent Friday and Saturday at the tower, I rode east and back on a road that parallels the UP main east of North Platte. I don't remember the route number, but it had a good shoulder. Best of all, whilst riding along, I was passed by at least three eastbound and four westbound trains. Now, for a bike/train nut, it does not get much better than that.
Just to be sure that we are on topic, I hope Congress does not meddle with the road. I believe it is part of the federal highway system.
Rather than the traditional Amtrak approach of "pack the bike in a box and put it in the baggage car", I much prefer a passenger-accessible bike rack. The main reason is that Amtrak offers checked baggage service at so few stations, particularly out here in the wide-open spaces of the West. If the passenger can handle his or her own bike, rather than having to rely on a station agent to unload it, that opens up many more destinations.
I speak as a train nut who is also a bike nut: I have traveled often with my bike on Amtrak, and a decade ago I commuted daily on Caltrain in the San Francisco bay area, using racks in the bilevel cars--plus, occasionally, the racks on VTA light rail in San Jose. I know some Amtrak California trains also provide racks, though I haven't used them. The potential problems--station dwell time, damage, theft--never surfaced for me. The main problem on Caltrain was that the space available for bikes couldn't keep up with the demand.
Bicyclists are a promising source of ridership and revenue for Amtrak. Often we want to go places where air service is expensive or nonexistent; we need to carry with us an object that is bulky enough to be awkward on an airplane (or, on the smallest regional planes, impossible); we don't care that the train station lacks a car rental agency, because we bring our own transportation with us; and we hate having to partially disassemble our bikes to fit the size restrictions of the airlines (not to mention UPS or FedEx: the under-publicized Amtrak Express service is far preferable in situations where the bicyclist cannot accompany the bike.) Amtrak could charge more than it does today for carrying a bike, and still undercut the airlines. Whenever I can, I evangelize for Amtrak among bicyclists, but the usual obstacle is the lack of checked baggage service at the station (in the most recent case, some friends would have loved to take Amtrak from Klamath Falls OR to Green River UT for a bicycle vacation looping through southern UT and northern AZ--except that there's no checked baggage service on the Zephyr at Green River.)
With respect to baggage in general (not just bicycles) I see only two downsides to eliminating baggage cars: (a) some passengers need assistance and (b) Amtrak Express might no longer exist.
Yes, people make mistakes. But in a well-run organization, symbolic errors like the $15 hamburger get folks fired very quickly. Amtrak seems to have an abundance of goofs who apparently don't have the wherewithal to recognize a potential bomb like that.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
schlimmAn alternative prognostication is that Congress persons, in general, would be less critical of Amtrak and maybe more supportive if Amtrak was more proactive and modern in its planning and also stuck to core missions and reduced operating losses by various means.
Schlimm,
I had to look it up in The Free Dictionary:
prognostication
oltmanndThey are getting hammered for keeping the status quo. How could trying to change be any worse?
Maybe we just disagree here, Don. I think Amtrak is getting hammered by people who simply want to "starve the beast" and would hammer away regardless of what Amtrak does or doesn't do. Trying to change would be worse because they would have to divide their attention between making the change and responding to being hammered. Joe Boardman testifies to the Congress so often I doubt he has much time left for anything else.
John
John WR But there may well be good reason for Amtrak to react to pushes from the Congress, Don. In today's political climate any initiative Amtrak makes will be harshly criticized in the Congress.
But there may well be good reason for Amtrak to react to pushes from the Congress, Don. In today's political climate any initiative Amtrak makes will be harshly criticized in the Congress.
A good point that i've never considered. As a friend used to say "DID squared " darn if you do and darn if you don't .....
John WR oltmanndCan you explain how this principle would apply to this particular circumstance? Some congressman is going to hold a press conference because Amtrak starts to offer bike storage areas in coaches? Don, I do not have any talent for clairvoyance. I cannot predict what anyone, much less a Member of Congress, might say or do in the future. However, I certainly could envision an anti Amtrak member attacking Amtrak for taking passenger seats out of a coach to substitute bike hooks. This then could become a distraction that Amtrak would have to deal with. What we need to understand is that given the political climate right now to do anything requires Amtrak to negotiate a minefield and Amtrak has to act with that understanding. None of this is a criticism of your suggestion, though. John
oltmanndCan you explain how this principle would apply to this particular circumstance? Some congressman is going to hold a press conference because Amtrak starts to offer bike storage areas in coaches?
Don, I do not have any talent for clairvoyance. I cannot predict what anyone, much less a Member of Congress, might say or do in the future. However, I certainly could envision an anti Amtrak member attacking Amtrak for taking passenger seats out of a coach to substitute bike hooks. This then could become a distraction that Amtrak would have to deal with. What we need to understand is that given the political climate right now to do anything requires Amtrak to negotiate a minefield and Amtrak has to act with that understanding.
None of this is a criticism of your suggestion, though.
They are getting hammered for keeping the status quo. How could trying to change be any worse?
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
An alternative prognostication is that Congress persons, in general, would be less critical of Amtrak and maybe more supportive if Amtrak was more proactive and modern in its planning and also stuck to core missions and reduced operating losses by various means. In other words, if Amtrak was largely self-supporting for operations and avoided embarrassments like the $15 hamburger, Congress would not feel the need to attack Amtrak. Just a thought. Sure works that way in many other areas of government.
John WRHowever, if Congress meddles to the point of requiring baggage cars on these trains or on all trains there may be some positive results.
Exactly the point. If there are positive results to be had, why isn't the push coming from inside Amtrak. NC has combines - built from coaches. How about a few Amfleet combines?
matthewsaggieThe NC combines used on he Piedmont's have bike hooks and service is available at all the NC stations between Raleigh and Charlotte.
Nice! The small staff that NCDOT has to oversee the Piedmonts does a nice job. They are really paying attention.
John WROne of the realities of American government is that often changes that clearly need to be made cannot be accomplished by agencies themselves precisely because there are so many critics of government just waiting to jump on the slightest change and use it to attack.
Can you explain how this principle would apply to this particular circumstance? Some congressman is going to hold a press conference because Amtrak starts to offer bike storage areas in coaches?
oltmanndThe problem here is Amtrak is, once again, having to react to a push from the outside. If they were coming up with stuff like this on their own, they could short circuit this Congressional circus.
But there may well be good reason for Amtrak to react to pushes from the Congress, Don. In today's political climate any initiative Amtrak makes will be harshly criticized in the Congress. So it may be better a better tactic not to make a desirable change but let Congress demand it. Then Amtrak can do it without the criticism.
One of the realities of American government is that often changes that clearly need to be made cannot be accomplished by agencies themselves precisely because there are so many critics of government just waiting to jump on the slightest change and use it to attack. If these critics would use a little self restraint agencies would be much freer to make commonsense changes. But that is not the political reality today and Amtrak must live with a political reality.
blue streak 1there is no checked bag symbol on either train..
OK Steak.
Two things come to mind:
Your title: CONGRESS MAY MEDDLE AGAIN suggests that Congress almost never meddles with laws about Amtrak and similar things but in an extremely rare action Congress may just do it. However, I don't think that is what you really mean. I'm not anti government but I think Congress is in the habit of being meddlesome and is not likely to change.
However, if Congress meddles to the point of requiring baggage cars on these trains or on all trains there may be some positive results. First of all, to the extent that baggage cars are expensive there will need to be a proposal for funding them. Second, Amtrak will then have space on trains to carry not just bicycles but all kinds of things that it cannot easily carry now and that will be one more reason to ride Amtrak.
Two problems. One, as you mention, Amtrak can only react to outside demands and pressure. Two, their responses are to do what they and before them, the freight railroads always did.
blue streak 1 John WR" As I read the article you cite Amtrak already has baggage cars in the trains in question and bicycles can be put on as checked baggage. Article appears wrong. Amtrak TT specifically says no checked baggage on Ethan Allen & Adarondiack has no checked bag stations north of SDY + there is no checked bag symbol on either train..
John WR"
As I read the article you cite Amtrak already has baggage cars in the trains in question and bicycles can be put on as checked baggage.
Article appears wrong. Amtrak TT specifically says no checked baggage on Ethan Allen & Adarondiack has no checked bag stations north of SDY + there is no checked bag symbol on either train..
I think the point is the they want Amtrak riders to be able to bring bikes on these routes. Some constituents must have asked. They proscribed baggage cars because that's how Amtrak does it on the Vermonter. I'd be willing to be they didn't do a literature search in order to proscribe the best way. I'd also be willing to bet they'd be satisfied with any method to carry bikes.
The other side of this question is, is there potential ridership growth in accommodating bikes? Anecdotal evidence says it's a small but growing market.
The problem here is Amtrak is, once again, having to react to a push from the outside. If they were coming up with stuff like this on their own, they could short circuit this Congressional circus.
I was responding to this sentence in the article linked to in the first post;
"The lawmakers are asking Amtrak to add baggage cars that could carry bicycles on the Adirondack and Ethan Allen trains, which run from Penn Station in Manhattan to the Albany area, Saratoga and destinations in New York’s North Country and Vermont."
Paul Milenkovic henry6 It should be that easy, Oltmannd! First is to determine the needed space for passengers. Second, finding a car and a space on that car for space to put a bike and rider. Third, getting bikes on and off the train in a timely and convenient manner; ya can't do a bike rack like on a bus or the roof of a car. Fourth, liability matters have to be considered should a bike be scratched or dented, should it scratch or dent another bike, or strike and maime a person (yeah, I'm being sarcastic here, but it will and does happen). It is a cumbersome item which needs space and time and has to be weighed against what is lost to accomodate. As if Don Oltmann of Norfolk Southern doesn't know what he is talking about . . . http://www.oregon.gov/ODOT/COMM/docs/Talgo_Facts_Apr13.pdf "Each trainset provides seating for 275 passengers and offer a bistro-car, a dining car, bicycle storage and more. Oregon’s trainsets will join the existing fleet of five Talgo trainsets." If those enviro-conscious folks in Oregon can put a bike rack on a train, it is indeed that easy.
henry6 It should be that easy, Oltmannd! First is to determine the needed space for passengers. Second, finding a car and a space on that car for space to put a bike and rider. Third, getting bikes on and off the train in a timely and convenient manner; ya can't do a bike rack like on a bus or the roof of a car. Fourth, liability matters have to be considered should a bike be scratched or dented, should it scratch or dent another bike, or strike and maime a person (yeah, I'm being sarcastic here, but it will and does happen). It is a cumbersome item which needs space and time and has to be weighed against what is lost to accomodate.
It should be that easy, Oltmannd! First is to determine the needed space for passengers. Second, finding a car and a space on that car for space to put a bike and rider. Third, getting bikes on and off the train in a timely and convenient manner; ya can't do a bike rack like on a bus or the roof of a car. Fourth, liability matters have to be considered should a bike be scratched or dented, should it scratch or dent another bike, or strike and maime a person (yeah, I'm being sarcastic here, but it will and does happen). It is a cumbersome item which needs space and time and has to be weighed against what is lost to accomodate.
As if Don Oltmann of Norfolk Southern doesn't know what he is talking about . . .
http://www.oregon.gov/ODOT/COMM/docs/Talgo_Facts_Apr13.pdf
"Each trainset provides seating for 275 passengers and offer a bistro-car, a dining car, bicycle storage and more. Oregon’s trainsets will join the existing fleet of five Talgo trainsets."
If those enviro-conscious folks in Oregon can put a bike rack on a train, it is indeed that easy.
John WRAs I read the article you cite Amtrak already has baggage cars in the trains in question and bicycles can be put on as checked baggage.
Yes, but they must go in a box. The box costs $15
http://www.amtrak.com/servlet/ContentServer?c=Page&pagename=am%2FLayout&cid=1251621565020
(halfway down the page)
Oh, this is soooo hard!
Google, "bikes on trains". Then click on "images"
This is simple.
We need spaces for bikes and skis. We need more baggage room. It seems also that people go away for a week and don't know how to travel light....folks have more bags then they weigh. Baggage Cars can pay for themselves by way of mail contracts and exess bag charges
blue streak 1Although bicycles now require a $10 fee you can bet that this would still be revenue negative ?
Streak,
As I read the article you cite Amtrak already has baggage cars in the trains in question and bicycles can be put on as checked baggage. However, not all stations accept checked baggage. The problem seems to be what do you do at those stations. In other words, could there be a way of dealing with bicycles at those stations without hiring extra personnel to deal with checked baggage?
Yes, I've ridden the RIver Line, NJT, MNRR, LIRR, NYC subways, SEPTA, HBLRT, Newark City Subway and SEPT transit and trolleys at various times on various days. And all accomodate bikes in different ways and bikes get in the way or out of the way differently, too. It is not as quick and easy as removing a couple of seats when you need the seats for passenger loads. Or if it is peak rush hour or a weekend with families and groups going to the city for tours or coming back. Libility for the bike and other passengers is a reality to be dealt with. It is just not as easy as it sounds.
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I am sure you've ridden the NJT RiverLine from Trenton to Camden. They have bike hooks on the inside, just like the demo in the M7s cars. It is really that simple.
It's only hard if you automatically think "baggage car" because of tradition.
If GM "killed the electric car", what am I doing standing next to an EV-1, a half a block from the WSOR tracks?
You put take a couple of coaches, remove a row of seats, and put in bike hooks.
NJT's RiverLine has them. I believe I saw them on intercity trains in Germany, too. Even MetroNorth has them
http://www.streetsblog.org/2009/01/07/metro-north-makes-its-m-7-train-cars-more-bike-friendly/
No baggage car needed.
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