oltmannd] Now, if you could do a couple/three trains a day and you had a stop in Duluth/Buford..... you might have something. You could even live with somewhat slower trip times.
Now, if you could do a couple/three trains a day and you had a stop in Duluth/Buford..... you might have something. You could even live with somewhat slower trip times.
We went through this before. New Orleans is or shoujld be a popular desination for college students, and their are plenty along the Atlanta-New-Orleans route. Cannot easily use a laptop and get homework done on a bus. Worth the extra fare if marketed properly.
oltmannd You don't have those long 5+ minute station stops ... Schedule would be something like 6:30 AM departure from Atlanta, 11:00 PM arrival in NYP.
You don't have those long 5+ minute station stops
...
Schedule would be something like 6:30 AM departure from Atlanta, 11:00 PM arrival in NYP.
Station stop times would seem to be independent of the service provided. This is just the way they like to do it now. If they got a cross-subsidy equivalent per mile then they have the financial incentive to reduce the dwell as it just cost them wages otherwise.
Yikes, 6:30 AM from Atlanta. Again, I am not saying that a day trip on the corridor is not warranted if you could have more than one train, some type of pair would make the most sense.
How about instead the 1971 schedule come back into play. Or better yet, a 6:00 PM departure out of Atlanta, and then a 11:00 PM arrival into Charlotte. If you could just get the day portion of the trip from New Orleans up to 53 mph average with some station stop discipline, then you are at a 7:30 AM departure from NOL. Could play schedule builder all day...
But that would give you the option of a same day equipment turn in NYC, no way! If the operator had the discipline of being paid by the passenger mile equivalent cross-subsidy, then an incentive exists. Freeing up an entire set of equipment just might be the incentive to make such a short turn work. Have a plan in place to short turn at WAS, PHL, BHM, and Meridian depending of the degree of the delay, with connections provided beyond by train in the NEC and tour bus to the south.
The later rush hour departure would allow long-distance commuters, those that make say two to three trips to the head office a week, to use the service out of Atlanta and points between to Charlotte. Then you fill up the same cars in Charlotte with riders for the NEC, ala Megabus. FIt some refurbished amcoaches out in a full car 2-1 configuration, seating around 60, at a reduced seat spacing, just as a test of the market.
daveklepperNew Orleans is or shoujld be a popular desination for college students, and their are plenty along the Atlanta-New-Orleans route. Cannot easily use a laptop and get homework done on a bus. Worth the extra fare if marketed properly.
Perhaps one obvious approach: make subsidy arrangements with colleges to provide reduced fare for students with valid ID. Follow-on from there might provide advance warning of peak 'academic travel' and allow for special incentives (or tie-ins, or special for-profit amenities just for those times). Should not be difficult to set this up, or get some state-level funding for this specific purpose. Good PR for Amtrak concerning this underrepresented travel group, too.
May I add that recent traffic on this thread is a demonstration of the very best kind of thinking and general discourse that I hoped I would find on this board...
Someone should pass these suggestions on to Amtrak. Possibly they can have a student working on a commission basis on each of the large campuses!
Amtrak has a student advantage program. It costs $20 a year and requires buying a ticket at least 3 days in advance. If provides a 15 per cent discount off regular fares.
Amtrak also recognizes an international student id card. This is a specific organization. Membership costs $25. Whether it is one time or each year is unclear. It also requires a ticket be purchased at least 3 days in advance and Amtrak gives a 15 per cent discount.
Students and all people under age 15 travel for half fare.
but how do the students know about these programs?
daveklepper but how do the students know about these programs?
The info is on the Amtrak web site. Occasionally, it'll show up on Amtrak's home page. I've also seen posters in stations from time to time.
It's also an option when you select "passenger type" when booking on the website.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
Checked the Megabus site. ATL to NO, 8-9 hours, $3.00-45.00, equipped with free Wi-Fi. Amtrak: 11 hours, $61.20 with student discount. Doesn't look like much of a market now. Megabus is now serving 25 million passengers in North America (primarily eastern US and ON and Quebec).. At the rate of growth they currently have, it will pass Amtrak.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
I believe Megabus is running "investment mileage" aka running a loss to enter the markets from their annual reports. They just like Greyhound with Bolt, use their existing business base to provide a below margin product to enter or keep market share. I don't know how long it can go on.
The seat is also quite small.
V.Payne believe Megabus is running "investment mileage" aka running a loss to enter the markets from their annual reports.
That is a fascinating observation about Megabus. Joe Boardman points out that on the whole about 11 per cent of our cities have lost long distance buses and the number of airports is also declining.
With regard to the Atlanta -- New Orleans service, Megabus serves Atlanta, Birmingham and New Orleans. Amtrak serves those cities as well as Anniston, Tuscaloosa, Meridian, Laurel, Hattiesburg, Picayune and Slidell.
I do not criticize Megabus for ignoring those cities. And I have not checked other companies. Greyhound often serves places the discount carriers do not.
PS. Greyhound does serve many but not all of the cities Amtrak serves. There is no Greyhound service to Laurel and Picayune. In Meridian Greyhound stops at the Amtrak station.
Also, in reference to travel from the college towns, many are not served by Megabus so you first have to get to their terminal, which may erase any savings.
Probably the Crescent route needs a two tier coach pricing and service offering. One a bit better than motorcoach seat spacing the other 2-1.
posters in stations and info on the Amtrak website do not get the message to students
rather than modifying some coaches for deluxe 2 & 1 seating, simply sell moderate price upgrades to privacy in single and double room sleeping cars space as daytime occupancy, since the sleeping cars are heavily booked north of Atlanta
V.PayneProbably the Crescent route needs a two tier coach pricing and service offering. One a bit better than motorcoach seat spacing the other 2-1.
Amtrak could offer a second class coach at a reduced price. But Amtrak has been around long enough so I have to believe that has been considered and rejected. I don't know what Amtrak management's thinking is on the issue. However, I do not expect there will be a change in the foreseeable future.
As far as I know there is no public outcry or strong opinion among a majority (or even a significant minority) in the Congress for second class coaches.
daveklepperposters in stations and info on the Amtrak website do not get the message to students
I can't agree with you, Dave. Today I think all of us, when we are looking to buy something, surf the net early on. Both Megabus and Bolt bus depend on their websites to get their point across. So why should it be different for Amtrak?
Students are people on a budget. I suspect many of them shop by price and Amtrak is not a discount carrier. However, I occasionally travel between New York and Providence and even between Newark and Washington and I often see students on Amtrak.
John
perhaps the website and posters don't describe the advantages well enought, the ability to get homework done.
The mindset of college students going to New Orleans is not likely to include diligence about "getting homework done." Even if that were a factor, the Megabus has electric plugs and free Wifi. I'm not sure Amtrak actually has any advantage for the students and it costs more.
schlimm not sure Amtrak actually has any advantage for the students and it costs more.
not sure Amtrak actually has any advantage for the students and it costs more.
Except that the concept of Bolt and Megabus is to only serve large metro areas and then run non-stop. They seem to be trying to be ground based Regional jet airlines. It seems like most of the college population is not in the large metro areas served, so you have to add the cost of getting to the terminal, which either means driving and parking, sharing a ride with coordinating schedules, or a transfer between carriers. All but somebody happening to go where you need them to go, for both the arrival and departure dates, puts the cost to the user above that of using a long distnace train and getting a short intracity ride or taxi to the station.
I recently transfered between Greyhound and Megabus in Memphis. I choose the carriers to gain access on one end and really just to try the other service while making a one way trip under 400 miles to catch back up with family. There are so few options on the routes that used to have mainline runs up until the late 60's unless you want to spend a few hundred dollars and several connections flying.
Since their terminals are 10ish miles apart and the local bus link was nowhere to be found, though scheduled, it cost me an extra $25 I wasn't planning on spending for a taxi.
There is a certain amount of wisdom to stopping in the towns between the large metro areas in terms of reducing access costs to users.
Just a quick glance at the Megabus web page reveals services to communities with these universities: UI Champaign, UW Madison, UM Ann Arbor, UI Iowa City, Ohio State, U Louisville, U Cincinnati, U Tenn Knoxville U Memphis, Vanderbilt (Nashville), UGA Athens, Georgia Tech and State in Atlanta, UT Austin, Penn State, etc. Many of these are NOT served by Amtrak
Irresponsible, disrespectful commentater that I am, I gotta' say something about Oltmanned's Apr 5 "business plan" to reduce the AMTK subsidy.
'Cause I did not read the rest of the thread toward today, I hope for tolerance if I suggest that, except for Business Class or First Class acommodations, airlines, those that survive after falling into the whirlpools of bankruptcy or merger-ism, have already done what Oltmannd suggested.
1 No Legroom.
2 ibid
3 ibid
4 Hub-and-Spoke
Next 'graph: does he/she want to fund inter-state service, or have AMTK not pass thru Pensacola, I know it's not in the timetable, or Jacksonville?
Airline food service in coach---12 peanuts in a plastic envelope...is that what we're talking about?
Did'ya notice that the airlines immediately jumped to offer to support their Signal Department/ Dispachers (traffic controllers) when their income shrivelled last week?
For foreign tourists, Amtrak can be a good American face to the world. Making travel uncivilized certainllly does not prsent a good face. One of many reasons to keep dining cars and sleepers,
V.Payne I recently transferred between Greyhound and Megabus in Memphis. I choose the carriers to gain access on one end and really just to try the other service while making a one way trip under 400 miles to catch back up with family. There are so few options on the routes that used to have mainline runs up until the late 60's unless you want to spend a few hundred dollars and several connections flying. Since their terminals are 10ish miles apart and the local bus link was nowhere to be found, though scheduled, it cost me an extra $25 I wasn't planning on spending for a taxi.
I recently transferred between Greyhound and Megabus in Memphis. I choose the carriers to gain access on one end and really just to try the other service while making a one way trip under 400 miles to catch back up with family. There are so few options on the routes that used to have mainline runs up until the late 60's unless you want to spend a few hundred dollars and several connections flying.
This is interesting, for a number of reasons.
Megabus in Memphis departs from the south end of the main MATA (city bus) "North End" terminal, about 50 feet from the trolley line.
The Greyhound terminal used to be in downtown Memphis, which was only a few blocks from the North End terminal. They moved it (in late 2011) to be out by the airport... actually in the Airways MATA bus plex. Almost all the buses from Airways go to North End, and special care is made in MATA's route and headway scheduling to meet incoming Greyhound buses (perhaps on the not-too-silly assumption that people traveling by bus don't want to spend their pocket change on taxis).
Evidently there is a profound breakdown both in the information/signage provided at the Greyhound terminal for people to reach Megabus, and in the arrangements made to direct travelers on one bus line to reach the other. I would suspect THAT is a principal issue that should be taken up ... perhaps in the context of the recent discussions on the Forum of the 19th-Century railroad practice of intentionally impeding connections to 'competing' roads.
But there is also a fairly profound cost in inconvenience to the great majority of travelers on the bus who are not going to one of those towns.
I well remember riding the dog between Erie, PA and Cleveland. Bus was already a number of hours late when I got aboard. I lost track of all the miserable stops we made ... Ashtabula was notable because it reminded me of a different kind of horror.
I remember staying in San Diego a bit too late without knowing about bustitution, and having to ride the bus back to LA ... making all those stops. My knees have never been quite the same since.
I can even remember riding one of the old American Airlines 'mail runs' hopscotching across from Shreveport to somewhere -- Atlanta or Charlotte -- making a bunch of stops enroute. In those days it was something of an adventure to be landing *just* as thunderstorms moved off the field, and to be on the airplane for hours and hours. Not sure I'd like it if I were a business traveler wanting to get somewhere.
I can easily understand why a carrier predicated on the old People Express model of transporting people quickly and cheaply only between a select set of destination pairs would be attractive to a bus operator. I can equally understand how profits would be chewed up by having to drive off the Interstates and into various town centers where there may or may not be a few stragglers on and off. And is there really that much benefit in main line buses serving all those town centers, when they're almost certainly miles from where the majority of passengers ultimately intend to go?
As with the mail -- some carriers get stuck with having to provide the public service or access, while others get to skim the cream. In the days of regulation, some of those things were cared for. Nowadays it would make somewhat better sense to keep local carrier routes, to serve all the little town destinations, and run the intercity buses with minimal interruption. But there is little profit in local service... especially when distances are relatively long and subsidies from cities or regions sparse for such service.
daveklepperFor
...a very tiny number of....
daveklepperforeign tourists, Amtrak can be a good American face to the world. Making travel uncivilized certainllly does not prsent a good face. One of many reasons to keep dining cars and sleepers,
efftenxrfe Irresponsible, disrespectful commentater that I am, I gotta' say something about Oltmanned's Apr 5 "business plan" to reduce the AMTK subsidy. 'Cause I did not read the rest of the thread toward today, I hope for tolerance if I suggest that, except for Business Class or First Class acommodations, airlines, those that survive after falling into the whirlpools of bankruptcy or merger-ism, have already done what Oltmannd suggested. 1 No Legroom. 2 ibid 3 ibid 4 Hub-and-Spoke Next 'graph: does he/she want to fund inter-state service, or have AMTK not pass thru Pensacola, I know it's not in the timetable, or Jacksonville? Airline food service in coach---12 peanuts in a plastic envelope...is that what we're talking about? Did'ya notice that the airlines immediately jumped to offer to support their Signal Department/ Dispachers (traffic controllers) when their income shrivelled last week?
Here's the original post:
The way to reduce the operating subsidy is this:
1. Minimize non-revenue space
2. Maximize seats per train
3. Maximize seats per on-board employee
4. Maximize stops at the greatest travel markets on the route at times people are awake.
This means you chop and flip the Eastern LD train into day trains and drop thier diners and sleepers. Serve the intra-FL market with intra-FL trains. Fix the food service - contract it out or re-engineer the whole thing.
Start with a clean sheet of paper, not the 1950 Official Guide.
So, let's take'm one at a time!
1.Minimize non-revenue space: Does NOT mean less leg room. How about this: No rooms for car attendants. No seats for trainmen. No baggage cars (put it under the coach. Bi-level coaches (ala NE commuter roads). No dining car kitchens. Higher density sleeping car accommodations. I'm sure there are many, many more .....
2. Maximize seats per train: ibid!
3. Maximize seats per on-board employee: Day trains don't need cooks, car attendants, dining car staff.
4. Maximize stops at the greatest travel markets on the route at times people are awake: The rail network is a poor fit for hub and spoke. There are a few natural hubs like Chicago, otherwise it's more of a grid. The country that Amtrak started serving in 1971 ain't the one that's there now yet they haven't moved one iota to try to connect where people live NOW to where they want to go NOW vs. 1971. Exhibits A, B, C and D are Florida, South Carolina, Georgia and North Carolina. Just looks at some census data... It's free and easy to find on line.
Florida is the 4th largerst state in the nation now. It was way down the list in 1971. It is also a naturla for corridor service. Intra-Florida service would connect the largest population centers in the state. Miami, Orlando, Tampa, Jax. It's been totally and completely ignored by Amtrak over the years. Pensacola is tiny by comparison isn't worth the effort to connect to anywhere else with rail service. Rail is "batch mode" transportation by it's nature, not boutique service.
Who said anything about "AIRLINE FOOD"? Not me! I want GOOD FOOD, like I got at Longhorn last night, or Bonefish a month ago. Why not just load preplated meal on the train like the dinner trains do? These restaurant chains are everywhere Amtrak trains go in the east. You can't go 30 miles without going past one. Contract the business to them - lock, stock and barrel. Heck, even Chilli's or Applebee's would do.
efftenxrfeDid'ya notice that the airlines immediately jumped to offer to support their Signal Department/ Dispachers (traffic controllers) when their income shrivelled last week?
Did you notice that the airlines did not offer to make up the lost $$ from sequestration in order to get the traffic controllers back to work?
oltmanndDid you notice that the airlines did not offer to make up the lost $$ from sequestration in order to get the traffic controllers back to work?
I did notice that, Don. But I would cut the airlines a little slack here.
After all, airlines to pay a whole group of fees and taxes to use the airports. Traditionally the Federal Government has always provided air traffic control and even now no one suggests that is not a government responsibility. I the airlines pay it themselves they could find they are setting a precedent which would come back to haunt them.
oltmannd daveklepperFor ...a very tiny number of.... daveklepperforeign tourists, Amtrak can be a good American face to the world. Making travel uncivilized certainllly does not prsent a good face. One of many reasons to keep dining cars and sleepers,
I wonder just how tiny this tiny number is. And there may well also be American tourists who want to see our country in comfort and, perhaps, with a little luxury. Success may lie in doing a lot of little things right.
I suggest that where the commercial airlines fly, it is not the government's responsiblity to provide air traffic control without being compensated for the control.
Were the airline traffic not be there, traffic controllers would not be an expense....to US (Paul Harrrvee just rotated in his coffin) and consider if air traffic controllers were taking care of military and civilian flights (no doubt corporate jets would buy in when they flew.) only, relegating every other flight to mandatory visual flight rules.....crop dusters, medivac copters, fire fighting flights....that's what they do, anyway they can. Recreational flights, Air Shows, business owners, let them buy in for specific flights, like home to work and back-----each flight.
What precedent verifies and justifies government subsidizing air traffic, road traffic, canal lock and river, harbour and port, when it doesn't provide for railroad (commercial) traffic control.....then mandates the industry pay for PTC?
"pay it themselves....precedent.....could come back to haunt them," Verdad!, Vrai, You Betcha.
That commercial airlines are doing now is what was suggested that AMTK implement is now extant in airline's version of "steerage,"
Intended was the content of the previuos 'graph.
John WR oltmanndDid you notice that the airlines did not offer to make up the lost $$ from sequestration in order to get the traffic controllers back to work? I did notice that, Don. But I would cut the airlines a little slack here. After all, airlines to pay a whole group of fees and taxes to use the airports. Traditionally the Federal Government has always provided air traffic control and even now no one suggests that is not a government responsibility. I the airlines pay it themselves they could find they are setting a precedent which would come back to haunt them. John
It may bite them anyway. The money to put the controllers back on came from diverting money from the capital improvement fund. So, is there now net $$ flowing from the airline tax/fees to the treasury? Or, is there just less net flowing the other way?
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