This is a very pro AMTRAK article that I find a little amusing;
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/the-gypsynesters/12-things-you-dont-know-amtrak_b_2767395.html
John WRThis year Amtrak has requested relatively little money for operating expenses but it still needs some.
I don't know what Amtrak has budgeted for 2013 (do you? source link?), but the budget for 2012 is at considerable variance from your statement above.
The loss, i.e., the subsidy, for LD services was $529.7 mil. or stated another way, expenses ate up every dollar of revenue and lost an additional $529.7 mil. Compared to other Amrak services, the NEC (made a positive contribution) and state-supported short corridors (small subsidy) it is a very inefficient segment that detracts from Amtrak's reputation and its ability to provide the best transportation for the most people, which is its mission.
http://www.amtrak.com/ccurl/963/948/AmtrakFY12ComprehensiveBusinessPlan-FINAL-wAppx.pdf
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
The signalmanI know about government funding for capital improvement but when did Amtrak get $$$ for operating expenses?
Amtrak has always gotten money for operating expenses. That one thing some people object to. This year Amtrak has requested relatively little money for operating expenses but it still needs some.
Hi Guys,
I know about government funding for capital improvement but when did Amtrak get $$$ for operating expenses?
For New Jersey being part of the Northeast Corridor has always been a problem. Ben Franklin called New Jersey "A barrel tapped at both ends." A great many people and things pass through the state bound for New York or Philadelphia or some place else.
Many trucks avoid the New Jersey Turnpike because of its tolls. Instead they take I-95 on the Philadelphia side to I-295 in Ewing, NJ and hop over to NJ State Route 31 North to SR 202 North to I-287. An alternative to is take Route 1 through Pennsylvania and cross the Delaware at Trenton, continue on Route 1 until it intersects with I-287 and go north there. Either way is somewhat slower but toll free.
Yes, indeed, NY to Phila to Wash D.C., was definitely a corridor...the PRR knew that and poured lots of money into it with electrification over the whole distance, hourly trains leaving NY for Phila and Phila to NY. Even the state of NJ realized the need to move trucks and interstate auto traffic off local roads onto a turnpike...the concept of a corridor was concepted and slowly emerged, it evolved instead of being planned. It wasn't until the mid 70's that corridors were identified as an entity by planners for economic and development purposes. As for Amtrak, the result was a defining the differences between inter city and long distance services by density of traffic.
RIDEWITHMEHENRY is the name for our almost monthly day of riding trains and transit in either the NYCity or Philadelphia areas including all commuter lines, Amtrak, subways, light rail and trolleys, bus and ferries when warranted. No fees, just let us know you want to join the ride and pay your fares. Ask to be on our email list or find us on FB as RIDEWITHMEHENRY (all caps) to get descriptions of each outing.
henry6we didn't have the concept of the Corridor back in the 50's...as urban areas grew and spread, merging into one mass of population, etc., then did the term take effect. And John, that is the answer, too, for your question of NY-Phila. services...90 miles in 90 minutes for the Clockers....It is two cities so close that their metropolitan areas and "spheres of influence" overlap. A lot of travel, traffic, between the two are inter city but there is a segment some commuting. However, they are not a commuter service because most of the travel between the two are business trips rather than home to work and back. Certainly you cannot compare Philadelphia to Port Jervis.
I guess you are right, Henry. In 1950 we were not thinking about corridors. After all, we did have cars which meant we were not tied to any kind of transit to get to work; we could move out any place there was a road and just hop in the car. And since we had so much space to expand what was wrong with that? The pejorative term "suburban sprawl" didn't even exist.
But, as my Greek philosophy teacher explained, the seed of a thing contains an element that will ultimately destroy that thing. And as the suburbs expanded all over the roads became increasingly chocked with traffic until today commuting time has increased and increased and continues to increase. And so we are back to transit.
And of course Port Jervis is a bedroom suburb while Philadelphia is still a city even if it has fallen on hard times.
But the northeast corridor is as old as the country when we used coastwise ships to get from city to city. The railroad followed the shipping channels and the main roads followed the railroad. We may not have been thinking about it but we still built I-95 parallel to the Northeast Corridor rail line. So the more it changes the more it is the same.
John
Bonas The Pennsylvanian would get more riders if it was sold and connected with the Capital could be gaurenteed as a westbound or the Pennsy and the Capital would combine or split like the Lakeshore does in Albany for a one seat ride with sleepers
The Pennsylvanian would get more riders if it was sold and connected with the Capital could be gaurenteed as a westbound or the Pennsy and the Capital would combine or split like the Lakeshore does in Albany for a one seat ride with sleepers
Indications from the PRIIA reports on the Capitol & Pennsylvanian imply that when the new Viewliner-2s are delivered the following will happen.
1. Thru single level coaches and a sleeper will be added from PHL - Pittsburg - CHI . Probably not originate at NYP so not to compete with Lakeshore but who knows if Lakeshore gets overcrowded + an earlier departure from NYP + DESIRE FOR all long distance cars to be serviced at Sunnyside ??
2. The use on the Capitol of superliners with a transition car would allow a dual height Capitol train to operate.
3. There is the ;ossibility that the Capitol could revert to all single level cars to free up more superliners for western trains.
True...two to ten postings can happen between seeing the thread, and some of those posts get lost or otherwise unnoticed. Sorry.
schlimm: "Do you understand the concept of a corridor? Oh wait, they didn't have corridors back in the 1950's"
henry6Actually. Schlimm, we didn't have the concept of the Corridor back in the 50's...as urban areas grew and spread, merging into one mass of population, etc., then did the term take effect.
Apparently you don't/can't read posts very carefully or you would have realized I had already said the same thing. No wonder these threads drift, coupled with the posts of two members who seem to reside in "Another World"
Actually. Schlimm, we didn't have the concept of the Corridor back in the 50's...as urban areas grew and spread, merging into one mass of population, etc., then did the term take effect. And John, that is the answer, too, for your question of NY-Phila. services...90 miles in 90 minutes for the Clockers....It is two cities so close that their metropolitan areas and "spheres of influence" overlap. A lot of travel, traffic, between the two are inter city but there is a segment some commuting. However, they are not a commuter service because most of the travel between the two are business trips rather than home to work and back. Certainly you cannot compare Philadelphia to Port Jervis.
South Shore RR is like 85 miles to Randolf Street Station from the South Bend Airport,,,Then add another 15 miles to Elkhart IN via local bus and thats 100 miles...The Hiawatha is like 85 miles and they have 14 trains a day. The Pennsy would get more riders if it was sold and connected with the Capital could be gaurenteed as a westbound or the Pennsy and the Capital would combine or split like the Lakeshore does in Albany for a one seat ride with sleepers
So Acela is an LD service or a commuter service? Seriously? Do you understand the concept of a corridor? Oh wait, they didn't have corridors back in the 1950's.
henry6Yes. I never said it was anything other than commuter.
How about New York and Philadelphia which is about 100 miles? And a Vice President I can think of once commuted between Washington and Wilmington on Acela. He wishes he still could but the Secret Service won't let him.
If you want to claim the NEC services are long distance trains, go to it.
Yes. I never said it was anything other than commuter. Same with Montauk at 112 and Greenport at 94 miles on LI; Poughkeepsie and Wassaic on MNRR in NY and Waterbury and New Haven in CT both are over 80 miles, too.
You probably know this, Henry.
According to the Port Jervis website the rail line to Hoboken is 95 miles. The fastest train, No. 50, leaves Port Jervis at 5:55 am and arrives in Hoboken at 8:00 am. To get to World Trade Center change to the PATH and arrive at 8:20. Or with a change at Seacaucus you can arrive at New York Penn Station at 8:08. 95 miles and that is definitely commuter service, not intercity service.
Since Amtrak runs the trains, they get the final say on how to classify them, not me, not you. And Amtrak is quite clear in their operational definitions, so all the obfuscations and irrelevancies in the world really don't matter. Last I checked, we are in the 21st century, where the definition of short -distance intercity (not commuter) travel is different than 70 or 150 years ago.
Why in America they haven't spoken English for years! How many times have we seen discussions and arguments here over words and meanings. The words and wording of the U.S. Constitution are great examples, so much so that we impanel nine Supreme Court Justices to define what it says and bring questions to them by the dozens! Railroad Books of Rules were carefully parsed to fit any given application and yet there were constant explanations for most of what was presented. One word I always marveled at in railroading was "annulled" as applied to a train that was cancelled. It was specifically used because of the way the timetables and books of rules were written, used because "cancelled" did not fulfill the meaning. .
henry6 Don...everything is perception, especially in the public's view. Acela is a Long Distance train and not a commuter coach ride to work and back.
Don...everything is perception, especially in the public's view. Acela is a Long Distance train and not a commuter coach ride to work and back.
And the people have spoken!! Or, alternatively, " 'When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean.' "
Don...everything is perception, especially in the public's view. Ten bucks can be a bite in one's weekly budget but is nothing in the budget of a business or public agency. Some people ride up to 100 miles each way a day commuting to and from work while others think that is too far, that even 10 or 20 miles is too far. Riding one way 100 or 200 or 300 miles for many is long distance no matter how legislation defines it. If it means that I leave before the sun comes up and get home after it goes down, that's a long distance. I live in a county where two towns less than 10 miles apart are considered foreign countries between some inhabitants who have never set foot in the other, that the 10 miles is long distance. I can multiply that story several times in this and other areas. Yeah, you can clip off NY to D.C. in under 3 hours on Acela but that is still a long distance as perceived by the average person. It is public perception that determines the cost and payment of those costs. Acela is a Long Distance train and not a commuter coach ride to work and back.
oltmanndI have no idea what Mica did or didn't do [about Amtrak's continuing support of the Pennsylvanian]. I am guessing that Bill Shuster strong-armed Amtrak. The train runs through his district, not Mica's.
Don,
Do you think perhaps Amtrak's resistance to being strong armed on this issue might have been somewhat less than wholehearted? And do you think that some other representatives whose trains are threatened might try the same strong arm tractics?
After all, pork barrel legislation goes back to the early days of the republic. Although the Shusters, father and son, may be skilled at it they are not the first to use such skills nor will they be the last.
henry6So what we've got here is an unclear interpretation of words and concepts by the public despite specific determinations for illustration by Amtrak. For me, I'm with the public.
Maybe there is a deliberately "unclear interpretation of words and concepts" in order to continue certain appropriations which, on first reading, it would seem that the new law stops.
"State-supported and other short distance corridor services" includes the Ethan Allen Express and the Vermonter, which are considered extensions connecting into the NEC.. The route length is 241 miles. By virtue of federal law (PRIIA 2008), these routes are short distance and must be covered by the states they serve by Oct. 2013. You apparently feel that your opinion = that of the "public minds."
John WRSo what happened with the Pennsylvanian when the State of Pennsylvania got the Federal Government to pick up part of the cost rather than none of the cost at all? Did John Mica simply cave in?
We don't know how much of the "gap" comes from cost/revenue changes and how much Amtrak is going to "pick up". All we know is that PA will pay $3.8M and the train will run.
I have no idea what Mica did or didn't do. I am guessing that Bill Shuster strong-armed Amtrak. The train runs through his district, not Mica's.
His dad had a long tradition of getting pork for his district. One example - the requirement that Hollidaysburg Car Shop remain open for five years after the NS/CSX Conrail split. Another - Federal funding to get the Railroader Memorial museum in Altoona up and running.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
A quick perusal indicates that Amtrak either has LD trains superimposed on the SD of the Corridor or the SD of the Corridor being needed for the LD trains. Now, the public definition of the Ethan Allen from Rutland, VT to NYC. I bet they think in terms of Long Distance rather than Short Distance. Likewise, even Boston to D.C in public minds is Long Distance. So what we've got here is an unclear interpretation of words and concepts by the public despite specific determinations for illustration by Amtrak. For me, I'm with the public.
If you are willing to accept Amtrak's definitions of long distance routes, go to C-3 from the January report: and you will see the names of the current routes:
http://www.amtrak.com/ccurl/834/888/Amtrak-Monthly-Performance-Report-January-2013-(revised).pdf
What is your definition of a long distance train, Blue Streak? Boston to New York or to D.C. or Norfolk or to Atlanta or New Orleans or Orlando or Miami or? These are all Corridor train routes. So is Boston or NY to Chicago via the Cardinal or the Capitol (? out of Baltimore). Yes, the core of the Corridor is either Boston to NY and NY to D.C. but a lot of those trains are also carrying loads beyond the Corridor.
AMTRAK's request for the $2.1B capital budget stated that almost 1 million passengers on the NEC came from long distance trains. I find that hard to believe ?? and does that NEC figure contain those long distance figures and how are the LD trains accounted for on the NEC ??
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