Parent child relationships are not equal; the parent has the power. In the Congress Amtrak relationship Congress has the power. But of course the parent child analogy only goes so far. Both Congress and Amtrak exist within the framework of a democracy. In our democracy there is a very basic right of petition. Advocacy groups use that right for a wide variety of causes. There are advocacy groups that support Amtrak and advocacy groups that oppose Amtrak. Neither is going to go away.
BaltACD I view Congress as somewhat of a parent, a overly controlling parent. A parent that can't let it's children grow up and have their own independent life. They provide the child most of what is needed for the child to become a independent person - but not enough of a financial footing for the child to have it's own selfsustaing job and be able to get and pay for it's own residence, make it's own decisions. The parent while criticizing the child for it's life choices does everything possible to keep the child dependent upon the parent.
I view Congress as somewhat of a parent, a overly controlling parent. A parent that can't let it's children grow up and have their own independent life. They provide the child most of what is needed for the child to become a independent person - but not enough of a financial footing for the child to have it's own selfsustaing job and be able to get and pay for it's own residence, make it's own decisions. The parent while criticizing the child for it's life choices does everything possible to keep the child dependent upon the parent.
How about a child who cannot spend the small amount of money wisely and hence is not trusted with a larger amount of money by its parents (Congress) or by a relative otherwise sympathetic (the Slate columnist), a child with its cohort of bad friends and other enablers (those in the advocacy community who cannot find any fault with Amtrak in its present form) that keep it on its current destructive path?
How about a child that can't take what meager stake they get from their parents and go out and get a job, any job, and show themselves to be resourceful and reliable and work their way "up the ranks"? How about a child that has a cohort of persons constantly making excuses, "Well, that kid over there got all of their college tuition paid for by wealthy parents, so you can't expect this kid to ever amount to anything."
If GM "killed the electric car", what am I doing standing next to an EV-1, a half a block from the WSOR tracks?
Nearly every child I have ever met feels that the parent is overly-controlling. Nearly every parent feels that they are doing everything they can, and trying to let go as soon as the child is ready, with due concern for the child's health & safety. There are always at least 2 views of "what's best" foe the "child".
The reality, if there is such a thing, usually lies somewhere in between.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
John WR Paul MilenkovicOne can draw different boundaries around things or invoke various manners of indirect subsidy or withdraw to claiming that subsidy is "complicated" that it cannot be quantified, or invoke some manner of "allegation." But that one form of subsidized transportation is subsidized at a much higher rate is a consistent outcome of these exercises. Well yes. But one can also use simplistic analysis based on cherry picked facts to avoid the hard work of digging up all of the facts needed for a rational decision.
Paul MilenkovicOne can draw different boundaries around things or invoke various manners of indirect subsidy or withdraw to claiming that subsidy is "complicated" that it cannot be quantified, or invoke some manner of "allegation." But that one form of subsidized transportation is subsidized at a much higher rate is a consistent outcome of these exercises.
Well yes. But one can also use simplistic analysis based on cherry picked facts to avoid the hard work of digging up all of the facts needed for a rational decision.
Passenger train advocacy has been around at least since the founding of NARP, perhaps the Trains Magazine "Who Shot the Passenger Train" article over 50 years ago. The idea is "trains can't compete against subsidized highways and airways" so we have Amtrak. But the Amtrak subsidy has gone on for so long with apparently not much work product in return that even people who "should be on our side", people who are not against the idea of government paying money towards meaningful public and social purposes, that people like the Slate contributor are starting to ask questions.
Maybe instead of throwing up our hands that the cost-benefit relationship of Amtrak is unknowable, maybe people interested in trains need to look carefully at those figures that are known instead of criticizing the Slate writer as being wrong.
John WR Dakota, What I know is that in the past I've purchased a ticket on line and got a bar code to scan on Amtrak's machine. The last time there was no bar code, nothing to scan, so I had to go to the ticket window to get my ticket and produce my id. The ticket clerk explained about the Homeland Security regulations. That is what in fact happened to me and what I do know. John
Dakota,
What I know is that in the past I've purchased a ticket on line and got a bar code to scan on Amtrak's machine. The last time there was no bar code, nothing to scan, so I had to go to the ticket window to get my ticket and produce my id. The ticket clerk explained about the Homeland Security regulations. That is what in fact happened to me and what I do know.
John
I don't think their web site reflects what the current practice is as you found it. The web site contains references to Quik Trak as well as promoting an E-ticket application for smart phones. In the latter case, there never is a physical ticket to be obtained.
I'll be using the NE Corridor toward the end of this month and will be sure to pay some attention to the ID procedures.
John WR oltmanndI just want to reform Uncle Charlie to the level of the other "boarders" in our house. Well, since those of us who post here are not Members of Congress we probably will not see any of the reforms we want. But given the current Congress perhaps the anti Amtrak people will succeed in zeroing out the Amtrak budget.
oltmanndI just want to reform Uncle Charlie to the level of the other "boarders" in our house.
Well, since those of us who post here are not Members of Congress we probably will not see any of the reforms we want. But given the current Congress perhaps the anti Amtrak people will succeed in zeroing out the Amtrak budget.
As long as there are $15 hamburgers and $200+ per passenger subsidies, 'zeroing out" is a possibility....or worse...going sideways for another 40 years.
The Brooking analysis, the Amtrak NEC plan, the actual forward progress in Michigan and Illinois, the possibility of "off the shelf" standards for the NEC and even the CAHSR project are all creating an opening. They are all focused on the kinds of things passenger rail does well - even though there's lots to nit-pic on all of them. So, now is the time to push - and not for more - or even preserving lines on the map. It's time to push Amtrak to act like a real business. It's time to push Congress - not to keep Amtrak in limbo for another year, but to demand, solid, cost effective, efficient performance from Amtrak - with the carrot of "good behavior will be rewarded with capital".
If all we do is whine about the "unfairness" of it all, while sticking our heads in the sand about the solid facts of the cost and utility of the LD trains, we only have ourselves to blame when this chance is gone and nothing good happened.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
henry6Time and time again we keep rehashing passenger trains,
Henry,
I generally agree with what you say. It also strikes me that if our western transcontinental Amtrak trains serve the fewest people probably that same section of our Defense and Interstate Highway System also serves the fewest people. If we have a coherent transportation policy and we eliminate one we logically should eliminate the other too.
John WR oltmannd"Uncle Charlie" is the long distance trains. Everybody likes him. He's been around so long, no one questions what he's doing there even though he consumes "mass quantities" and doesn't pay his share. Don, What we have here is an allegation. And the allegation fails to consider subsidy to all American transportation except for the subsidy to Amtrak. It is hard for me to see any reason to single out one kind of transportation; the principal should be applied to all transportation or to none at all. John
oltmannd"Uncle Charlie" is the long distance trains. Everybody likes him. He's been around so long, no one questions what he's doing there even though he consumes "mass quantities" and doesn't pay his share.
Don,
What we have here is an allegation. And the allegation fails to consider subsidy to all American transportation except for the subsidy to Amtrak. It is hard for me to see any reason to single out one kind of transportation; the principal should be applied to all transportation or to none at all.
I just want to reform Uncle Charlie to the level of the other "boarders" in our house.
It is very easy to see why one form of subsidized transportation has a "target on its back" that no other subsidized form of transportation has.
One can draw different boundaries around things or invoke various manners of indirect subsidy or withdraw to claiming that subsidy is "complicated" that it cannot be quantified, or invoke some manner of "allegation." But that one form of subsidized transportation is subsidized at a much higher rate is a consistent outcome of these exercises.
Yes, it is unfair that Amtrak gets picked upon whereas the other modes of transportation "get a free pass", except that they don't inasmuch that public spending on anything and everything gets subject to scrutiny and even opposition these days. It is unfair that "people don't listen to us" that every mode of transportation is subsidized and that somehow and in some way the level of subsidy cannot be quantified even though there are these people who add up numbers and add up government appropriations and come up with numbers.
It is also an unhappy state of affairs that people commenting on this Web site of train enthusiasts cannot be relied upon to be in agreement that all of this is unfair. But the question is whether a person values harmony in discussions or values getting to the bottom of why things in the "big world out there" are the way they are.
This thread (I guess) was about the Slate columnist expressing what many of us regard as a "naive" view of passenger trains and their cost effectiveness, and some of us have responded like a NARP Press Release intended to "straighten him out", as if our straightening-out on these matters has had much impact over the last 40 years.
Instead of trying to straighten out the Slate commentator, maybe we would do better to understand the Slate commentator so as to build a bigger political movement in support of trains.
BaltACD oltmannd BaltACDAmtrak's act is securing operating and capital funds from Congress - services to a paying public are a secondary concern to the primary one of continuing to get funds from Congress. Yup. Wrong mission. BaltACDThe Amtrak is the family that can barely keep the 'important' bills paid every month as the live paycheck to paycheck, being criticised for not having lawn care, fresh paint on the siding, new carpeting and all the other things the neighbors think they should have as well as a 401K and IRA's for their retirement. The family can barely keep heat and lights on and food on the table with their income from all sources and we expect them to have the 'Life Styles of the Rich and Famous'. Meanwhile, housing everyone's favorite Uncle Charlie in the master bedroom. He keeps the heat set at 74 and the AC set at 68 and eats the household cupboard bare. But, he does toss in $100 a week from his 16 hours of work each week at the typewriter repair shop. But Uncle Charlie controls those that control the income. No Uncle Charlie, no income, no business. If Congress would set up a 'sustainable funding mechanism' that Uncle Charlie's whims didn't affect they could change their mission - but Congress wants Amtrak to come on bended knee every year and beg, so Congress can feel 'All Powerful' in making Amtrak dance to their toon tune.
oltmannd BaltACDAmtrak's act is securing operating and capital funds from Congress - services to a paying public are a secondary concern to the primary one of continuing to get funds from Congress. Yup. Wrong mission. BaltACDThe Amtrak is the family that can barely keep the 'important' bills paid every month as the live paycheck to paycheck, being criticised for not having lawn care, fresh paint on the siding, new carpeting and all the other things the neighbors think they should have as well as a 401K and IRA's for their retirement. The family can barely keep heat and lights on and food on the table with their income from all sources and we expect them to have the 'Life Styles of the Rich and Famous'. Meanwhile, housing everyone's favorite Uncle Charlie in the master bedroom. He keeps the heat set at 74 and the AC set at 68 and eats the household cupboard bare. But, he does toss in $100 a week from his 16 hours of work each week at the typewriter repair shop.
BaltACDAmtrak's act is securing operating and capital funds from Congress - services to a paying public are a secondary concern to the primary one of continuing to get funds from Congress.
Yup. Wrong mission.
BaltACDThe Amtrak is the family that can barely keep the 'important' bills paid every month as the live paycheck to paycheck, being criticised for not having lawn care, fresh paint on the siding, new carpeting and all the other things the neighbors think they should have as well as a 401K and IRA's for their retirement. The family can barely keep heat and lights on and food on the table with their income from all sources and we expect them to have the 'Life Styles of the Rich and Famous'.
Meanwhile, housing everyone's favorite Uncle Charlie in the master bedroom. He keeps the heat set at 74 and the AC set at 68 and eats the household cupboard bare. But, he does toss in $100 a week from his 16 hours of work each week at the typewriter repair shop.
But Uncle Charlie controls those that control the income. No Uncle Charlie, no income, no business. If Congress would set up a 'sustainable funding mechanism' that Uncle Charlie's whims didn't affect they could change their mission - but Congress wants Amtrak to come on bended knee every year and beg, so Congress can feel 'All Powerful' in making Amtrak dance to their toon tune.
"Uncle Charlie" is the long distance trains. Everybody likes him. He's been around so long, no one questions what he's doing there even though he consumes "mass quantities" and doesn't pay his share.
John WR Actually picking up an Amtrak ticket, as it was explained to me when I did so, has nothing to do with Amtrak ticketing systems. Rather, Homeland Security now requires people to present a picture id (like a drivers license or passport) before being given their ticket. I think we all know that since the World Trade Center was destroyed there are a lot of security regulations that did not exist before that happened. Amtrak does not get a free pass from these new regulations.
Actually picking up an Amtrak ticket, as it was explained to me when I did so, has nothing to do with Amtrak ticketing systems. Rather, Homeland Security now requires people to present a picture id (like a drivers license or passport) before being given their ticket. I think we all know that since the World Trade Center was destroyed there are a lot of security regulations that did not exist before that happened. Amtrak does not get a free pass from these new regulations.
I don't doubt that is what you were told, but it makes little sense. For one thing, at many stations those who have reservations may purchase the ticket using a Quik-Trak machine rather than a live person.
Secondly, ID verification serves no useful purpose unless the passenger list is cross referenced against a "do not train" list. Does such a list exist?
Finally, there must be hundreds of thousands of individuals who use commuter rail on monthly passes. Why should security be different for commuters than for Amtrak passengers?
I agree that if you purchase an Amtrak ticket from a live person you must furnish ID. However, as nearly as I can determine, it is just another meaningless exercise in security theatre.
OvermodIf that can't be integrated into the fare system -- you need a better systems integrator.
oltmannd D.Carleton oltmannd But, it's pretty clear the future is in corridors The future is corridors... operated by entities other than Amtrak. Well, not if Amtrak gets their act together....
D.Carleton oltmannd But, it's pretty clear the future is in corridors The future is corridors... operated by entities other than Amtrak.
oltmannd But, it's pretty clear the future is in corridors
But, it's pretty clear the future is in corridors
Well, not if Amtrak gets their act together....
If Amtrak didn't have it's act together - it would have ceased to exist many years ago. Amtrak's act is securing operating and capital funds from Congress - services to a paying public are a secondary concern to the primary one of continuing to get funds from Congress.
Until Congress sets up a long term sustainable funding source, Amtrak can only pay lip service to getting its 'act together' in other areas of it's operation as all those areas have a political voice that can hurt Amtrak in the short term with Congressional appropriations.
The Amtrak is the family that can barely keep the 'important' bills paid every month as the live paycheck to paycheck, being criticised for not having lawn care, fresh paint on the siding, new carpeting and all the other things the neighbors think they should have as well as a 401K and IRA's for their retirement. The family can barely keep heat and lights on and food on the table with their income from all sources and we expect them to have the 'Life Styles of the Rich and Famous'.
Can Amtrak do better - Yes. Any organization can do better than their present performance - all it takes is ideas and the resources to implement the ideas. One without the other gets you nowhere.
You cannot have someone on a starvation diet for their entire existence and expect them to grow into a 360 pound NFL lineman that runs a 4.6 second 40 yard time and bench presses 500 pounds multiple times.
henry6 Deggesty schlimm Deggesty The writer of the piece should try riding one of the trains "nobody rides." This past Monday night, I went to the Salt Lake City station to pick up the reservation I had made that morning, and I had to wait (my trip is still in the future) until all the people who had not yet bought their tickets to ride #5 that night had bought theirs; it took the agent more than an hour to take care of them. Lining up at the trough. That is a great example of what is wrong with Amtrak. SCHLIMM, can you please explain your comment? Quite often, when people buy transportation, they have to visit an agent to obtain the proof that they have paid for it. On Friday we experienced lines of people waiting for transportation every where we went: lines for tickets and lines to board. This included Amtrak, NJT trains and buses, SEPTA transit, trolleys, and trains. Public transportation....get in line, pay your fare, get aboard. If that didn't happen, then getting rid of the trains, buses, trolley cars and subways would be an easy decision. You gotta end up at the station to board...so I don't understand the comment which seems to misunderstand how life works.
Deggesty schlimm Deggesty The writer of the piece should try riding one of the trains "nobody rides." This past Monday night, I went to the Salt Lake City station to pick up the reservation I had made that morning, and I had to wait (my trip is still in the future) until all the people who had not yet bought their tickets to ride #5 that night had bought theirs; it took the agent more than an hour to take care of them. Lining up at the trough. That is a great example of what is wrong with Amtrak. SCHLIMM, can you please explain your comment? Quite often, when people buy transportation, they have to visit an agent to obtain the proof that they have paid for it.
schlimm Deggesty The writer of the piece should try riding one of the trains "nobody rides." This past Monday night, I went to the Salt Lake City station to pick up the reservation I had made that morning, and I had to wait (my trip is still in the future) until all the people who had not yet bought their tickets to ride #5 that night had bought theirs; it took the agent more than an hour to take care of them. Lining up at the trough. That is a great example of what is wrong with Amtrak.
Deggesty The writer of the piece should try riding one of the trains "nobody rides." This past Monday night, I went to the Salt Lake City station to pick up the reservation I had made that morning, and I had to wait (my trip is still in the future) until all the people who had not yet bought their tickets to ride #5 that night had bought theirs; it took the agent more than an hour to take care of them.
The writer of the piece should try riding one of the trains "nobody rides." This past Monday night, I went to the Salt Lake City station to pick up the reservation I had made that morning, and I had to wait (my trip is still in the future) until all the people who had not yet bought their tickets to ride #5 that night had bought theirs; it took the agent more than an hour to take care of them.
Lining up at the trough. That is a great example of what is wrong with Amtrak.
Quite often, when people buy transportation, they have to visit an agent to obtain the proof that they have paid for it.
On Friday we experienced lines of people waiting for transportation every where we went: lines for tickets and lines to board. This included Amtrak, NJT trains and buses, SEPTA transit, trolleys, and trains. Public transportation....get in line, pay your fare, get aboard. If that didn't happen, then getting rid of the trains, buses, trolley cars and subways would be an easy decision. You gotta end up at the station to board...so I don't understand the comment which seems to misunderstand how life works.
Well, that was the whole point about how buying your fare online was supposed to improve how life works. You show up at the boarding point, hand over or scan the item QUICKLY, and get aboard.
Having to run your receipt past bored human eyes at the end of the one open line, or having to produce secondary ID or swipe the credit card used for the original order at the one open kiosk that everyone else is using to pay for and buy their tickets and passes, destroys the whole point of the exercise.
If that can't be integrated into the fare system -- you need a better systems integrator.
RME
RIDEWITHMEHENRY is the name for our almost monthly day of riding trains and transit in either the NYCity or Philadelphia areas including all commuter lines, Amtrak, subways, light rail and trolleys, bus and ferries when warranted. No fees, just let us know you want to join the ride and pay your fares. Ask to be on our email list or find us on FB as RIDEWITHMEHENRY (all caps) to get descriptions of each outing.
Johnny
Time and time again we keep rehashing passenger trains, Amtrak, profits, loses, political postures and trains. We have yet to bring it all into the perspective of defining the purpose of the passenger train, defining the specifics of operating a passenger train or all passenger trains, balancing it all against other modes, and tying it all together as a total service in relation each other. We either have to weigh each train and track one by one or lump them all together as a service feeding upon itself or adding the service as a whole to the transportation system as a whole. We can pick apart everything to the point it all costs too much per unit, per train or bus or car or mile. Does a coast to coast Route 80 make sense when one drives only across the G.W. Bridge or halfway across the state of NJ? But Route 80 stretches to the Pacific coast, too. Do we dump the interstate highway routes because there are stretches in some places that don't have more than two an hour? What I am saying is that we have to look at our transportation system with all forms of transportation included, figure out what we need and what we want, and what we want to pay for all of it. Or none of it.
oltmanndI reject the "social need" argument because it is extremely unevenly distributed so therefore cannot be an actual need. Southern Kansas has more "social need" than South Dakota? How so?
Do you mean that the social need is evenly distributed but unevenly served? That Amtrak meets a social need in southern Kansas but does not meet that same need in South Dakota?
Certainly it can be argued that Amtrak should not meet any social needs at all. And it can be argued that Amtrak should meed all social needs for transportation equally. But what Amtrak seems to me to be doing with its long distance routes is to meet social needs to the extent its budget will allow. In our society it is very common for social needs legislation to help some people while ignoring the equally valid needs of other people but that does not lead to a conclusion that social needs do not exist.
Editor Emeritus, This Week at Amtrak
schlimm You set up a straw man by suggesting this is about making a profit versus serving a social purpose.
Schlimm,
I don't suggest profit vs social need. I suggest prolfit and social need is the historical reason for long distance routes.
You argue that the money spent on long distance routes could be better spent to serve more people. That argument is fair enough. But what does it have to do with the reason that Congress mandated long distance routes back in 1970? And while Congress no longer mandates long distance routes it has clearly said it wants Amtrak to continue these routes.
It is true that you and others disagree with Congress's decision that it wants long distance routes maintained. But that does not alter the reason these routes were set up in the first place.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
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