Didn't want to ressurect and old thread but wanted to follow-up on this. I was so taken aback by some of the responses the other thread got. I brought the matter to the attention of the Long Distance Passenger customer liason committee that Amtrak has established. They wrote back and stated not only would they take it up but they would forward the idea to Amtrak management in the respective areas.
Specifically, the area of concern was Sleeping Car Passengers with comped meals not tipping the Dining Car Staff for the meal....mistakenly thinking the tips were shared or included. It was stated in the response that the Amtrak rep was aware that Cruise ships have such a automatic tipping and tip share scheme and they are aware of the other side of the argument as well that some would argue automatic tipping erodes the motivation for better service. It will be an interesting topic to be discussed internally at Amtrak and I am happy it is going to be reviewed. :)
I leave a tip for the sleeping car attendant and dining car attndent when the service warrents it. There have been numerous times when the service didn't warrent a tip.
Recently tipped a female sleeping car attendant $25.00 on the California Zephyr. She went way above and beyond what was expected. The male attendant on the Westbound Zephy was also excellent, and he received $20.00. A dingbat attendant on the Capitol Limited spent all her time in another sleeping car paying more attention to that attendant than her customers received zero tip. She was new to Amtrak and completely ignored the call button. Service on Amtrak has always been a mixed bag.
I like New Zealand where they take a dim view of tipping. I never had a problem with service and on occasions offered tips and was told it is not acceptable in that country. I didn't ask if they are all paid a reasonable wage to cover the "lost wages" but assume they must be paid ok. I don't like the fact that in North America tipping is expected regardless of service quality. In some cases the manager scoops these tips or takes a large portion and the workers don't get paid well enough to live on. I also don't like the idea of tipping being a self report come income tax time. I suspect a lot goes un -reported and no tax is claimed. So these people benefit form the rest of us paying taxes on "normal" earned income. I suggest paying all service workers an adequate wage and tipping only when exceptional service has been presented. Just my 2 cents.
Amtrak employees are all UNION and therefore get union wages. I would guess their annual wages exceed more than most Amtrak riders. If they feel they are under paid then I suggest they negotiate a new contract or go find a "better" job. As a frequent long distant train rider [Starlight, & Texas Eagle] I see little exceptional service, mostly marginally adequate and we ride in bedrooms.
jumper I like New Zealand where they take a dim view of tipping. I never had a problem with service and on occasions offered tips and was told it is not acceptable in that country. I didn't ask if they are all paid a reasonable wage to cover the "lost wages" but assume they must be paid ok. I don't like the fact that in North America tipping is expected regardless of service quality. In some cases the manager scoops these tips or takes a large portion and the workers don't get paid well enough to live on. I also don't like the idea of tipping being a self report come income tax time. I suspect a lot goes un -reported and no tax is claimed. So these people benefit form the rest of us paying taxes on "normal" earned income. I suggest paying all service workers an adequate wage and tipping only when exceptional service has been presented. Just my 2 cents.
You two cents is spot-on. I lived in Australia from 1999 to 2004. Tipping is not expected there because service workers are paid a living wage. The same is true in New Zealand, where I traveled frequently on business.
The answer to tipping in the United States, including on-board Amtrak, is to pay service workers a living wage. Come to think about it, according to the BLS, Amtrak's on-board personnel get a reasonable compensation package.
Here is the question that I raised previously regarding this subject. If it is appropriate to tip Amtrak's on-board employees, why is it not appropriate to tip airline cabin attendants, intercity bus drivers, etc? Their compensation packages are similar to those for Amtrak's employees. And their duties are as demanding as those of any on-board Amtrak employee.
Tipping is deeply ingrained in our culture. It is demeaning to the tipper and tippee. Unfortunately, it is not like to change.
Whether a tip is a gratuity or part of a wage payment is ambiguous. While some people do consider tips optional the Internal Revenue Service does not and requires that taxes be paid on them.
There may be a reason for the lack of "exceptional service." Just as you assess the value of the service so to do service personnel assess the probability that exceptional service will be rewarded. This is true not only on Amtrak but in all areas of life where tipping is customary.
I agree with those who prefer the system in New Zealand and other countries where tips are built into employee salaries. However, that is not the case in the U.S.
Tipping is clearly a cultural (national) custom. At a restaurant in Germany, you generally round up to the closest full euro unless it is an inexpensive bill, so the tip is small (pocket change), since the wait staff is paid a living wage. In the US, it is a very different custom, since the wages are often minimum. Perhaps some customers find tipping demeaning, but few wait staff I have talked with outside a restaurant feel that way about it. Amtrak seems to be a gray area, being similar and yet different from the climate prior to Amtrak. Back in those days, tipping was the correct thing to do, but wages were low. Now it appears they are higher to some degree. Like John WR, I personally prefer the system where tipping is minimal because I can feel certain the wait staff is being decently paid and I am not "stiffing" them by leaving pocket change.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
John WR Whether a tip is a gratuity or part of a wage payment is ambiguous. While some people do consider tips optional the Internal Revenue Service does not and requires that taxes be paid on them. There may be a reason for the lack of "exceptional service." Just as you assess the value of the service so to do service personnel assess the probability that exceptional service will be rewarded. This is true not only on Amtrak but in all areas of life where tipping is customary. I agree with those who prefer the system in New Zealand and other countries where tips are built into employee salaries. However, that is not the case in the U.S.
As per IRS 1040 Instructions, as well as IRS Publication 531, wages and tips are separate items, although they are reported on the same line, as is also true for salaries.
Tips, for example, are not restricted to cash. They can be in the form of tickets, passes, etc. Moreover, if the customer puts it on the table or adds it to the bill, it is a tip. If the service provider adds it to the bill, it is part of wages.
The burden of reporting tips falls most heavily on the service person; employers assume the burden of reporting wages and salaries. There are some exceptions. In any case, persons in occupations that depend on tips are saddled with onerous IRS record keeping requirements.
You are right, Sam, that IRS does distinguish between tips and wages.
Generally tips and wages are taxed in the same way; that is they are subject to income tax and payroll taxes (FICA and Medicare). However, there are some exceptions.
1. If tips are not in cash, check or credit card payments they are not subject to payroll tax. This is for tips in the form of tickets, passes and similar things.
2. IRS regulations require people with tip income to keep a record of tips and IRS suggests a tip diary. You then regularly report the amount of tips you receive to your employer who withholds the taxes and sends it to IRS. However, your employer is also required to computed "allocated tip income" which is usually your share of 8 per cent of total sales. If your tip income falls below this amount you still have to pay taxes as if you received that amount. With wages you pay taxes only on your wages. With tips you may be required to pay taxes on more income than your actually have. All of this comes from IRS publication 531.
3. If a person works in an occupation where tips are customary and enough people choose not to tip service providers they may be required to pay extra taxes because some individuals choose not to tip them.
I'm not going to quibble over whether my tip is called for, taxable, or whatever. I like to reward service people even when the tip is not called for, and I do so regularly and copiously.
You can go on Amtrak's website and look at the employment section and see just what the wages are for the jobs that are listed. I can assure you that just because they are union they do not necessarily get great wages.
I agree with another poster who stated he tips based on service received. I have myself tipped car attendants up to 20.00, and leave a tip appropriate to the cost of the meal had it been necessary to pay for it when eating in the diner. In the last several years riding the Builder and CONO we have had some very good crews.
Good recommendation! I looked at the job openings for a lead service attendant and chef.
The beginning pay for a lead service attendant is $18.08 per hour. Presumably there are some subsequent bumps for satisfactory performance. If the person works an average of 2,080 hours per year, which is the standard used by most HR people, his or wages would be $37,606 per year.
Amtrak's compensation package includes paid vacation, health insurance, pension funding, etc. These can add 30 to 40 per cent to base pay, especially for a government or quasi government organization, ala Amtrak, which tend to offer rich benefits. Splitting the difference at 35 per cent, the total compensation package could be worth $50,768 before any overtime for the lead service attendant. It looks like the compensation package for a chef would be in the neighborhood of $53,800. Presumably the numbers for a service attendant would be slightly lower than those for a lead service attendant. In any case, these numbers square with those shown in the BLS tables.
According to the BLS, the average hourly wage in the United States at the end of October was $23.58. This would include all workers from relatively low skilled to highly skilled. In a sense the number is meaningless, but it is a starting benchmark. Assuming Amtrak's on-board service personnel get a bump in their wages upon satisfactory performance, it appears that their compensation packages compare favorably with those across the board as a whole.
The compensation for most beginning jobs is 80 per cent of the mid point for the job. If this is true for the Amtrak service attendent job, the mid point would be $22.60 per hour, which would put them very close to the national average. What I don't know, however, is how many hours an on-board Amtrak employee works per year and how much they earn in overtime. I was told by a Los Angeles crew person that the overtime can be significant.
The wait persons at my local Denny's get $2.62 per hour. They get no benefits, although this is about to change with the full implementation of the Affordable Care Act. They are dependent on tips for their survival. This does not appear to be the case for Amtrak's on-board service persons.
The Amtrak compensation numbers are in line with or better than those for airline cabin attendants. So back to one of my original points. Why should a traveler tip an Amtrak waiter or car attendant when she is not expected to tip an airline cabin attendant? Or a Greyhound bus driver?
But Sam, a Lead Service Attendant is s Supervisor. What do management salaries have to do with the wages paid to ordinary workers? Also, since Lead Service Attendants have a long list of responsibilities it is hard to see how they have much time to assist ordinary service attendants in serving passengers. Here is a link to Amtrak's manual that describes the job:
http://www.governmentattic.org/4docs/AmtrakServiceStandardsManual_2011.pdf
John WR But Sam, a Lead Service Attendant is s Supervisor. What do management salaries have to do with the wages paid to ordinary workers? Also, since Lead Service Attendants have a long list of responsibilities it is hard to see how they have much time to assist ordinary service attendants in serving passengers. Here is a link to Amtrak's manual that describes the job: http://www.governmentattic.org/4docs/AmtrakServiceStandardsManual_2011.pdf
I ride the Texas Eagle four or five times a year. I eat in the dinning car. The lead service attendant performs many of the duties of a service attendant, albeit with additional duties as per the job description. They are working supervisors. I doubt that they are paid a great deal more than a service attendant.
Let's say that a service attendant's compensation package is between $40,000 and $45,000 per year, which is suggested by the BLS numbers. That puts them in range of an over the road truck driver, whose job is a lot more challenging that serving meals and making up beds. We don't tip truck drivers!
With the exception of Amtrak's long distance trains, most of the trains don't have a lead service attendant. If they offer food service, it is in a cafe car or bistro car with one service attendant, who is responsible for inventorying the car, serving food and beverages, taking payment, etc.
Two weeks ago I rode the Cascade from Seattle to Portland and back. I visited the bistro car where I got a snack and coffee. The attendant had a cup for tips sitting on the counter. A few people in line placed money in it but not many. The same situation is extant on the Pennsylvanian, which I rode in August, and the NEC regional trains, which I have ridden five times this year. What is the justification for tipping someone who pulls a cup of coffee or heats up a sandwich in the microwave?
The BLS data, which is shown for all on-train service employees, including dinning car and sleeping car attendants, suggests that Amtrak's on-board service personnel are compensated competitively for the work they do and the skills required to do it. As these discussions have unfolded, I have come to the conclusion that tipping Amtrak's employees is inappropriate, although I am sure that I hold a minority view.
So back to my question. Why should Amtrak's dinning car and sleeping car employees be tipped when we don't tip airline cabin attendants and intercity bus drivers. Their duties are very bit as demanding as the duties of Amtrak's on-board employees? In fact, the duties of a Greyhound bus driver, who has to help passengers on and off the bus, as well as load and unload bagage at unattended rural stops, has a more demanding job.
Tipping is not obligatory, Sam. If you decline to tip employees who serve you that is your individual business and I do not question your decision. Neither do I question the decision of an individual who does choose to give an tip for personal service.
However, I do think it is valid to distinguish between labor and management. If you read Amtrak's manual you will see that the first duty of a Lead Service Attendant is to supervise service attendants. If there is time the Lead Service Assistant also assists in providing actual service. But that assistance should not blur the distinction between labor and management. Certainly in the private sector that distinction is drawn sharply and clearly.
In our country, who gets tipped, and who doesn't, is a matter of usage ... period. Demanding rationality or consistency is futile.
Usage says we tip those who serve us food, so the tipping in the dining car is easy. As for the sleeping-car attendant, I would say that -- on an overnight trip, at least -- he or she gives us a lot more individual attention than that received by the average bus or airline passenger. Making down the bed at night and restoring seats in the morning, etc.
So we tip that attendant, where coach passengers don't tip their "attendant," the conductor.
Not so irrational, really.
She is totally guessing at their Salaries and when or how often they get paid. It would be proper to just ask or check into the reports on glass door dot com. Most flight attendents only get paid while they are on the aircraft, a good portion of them are not paid for a full 40 hour week. I would presume the same is true of Amtrak. So the salaries your seeing are more than likely substantially inflated.
As to a container for tips on the counter, it is not just a Cascades train that has such; I believe you will find such in almost every lounge car operated by Amtrak. I also do not not feel that I have to tip when I buy something there, but I do tip when sitting down for a meal and when riding in a sleeper.
Johnny
CMStPnPShe is totally guessing at their Salaries and when or how often they get paid. It would be proper to just ask or check into the reports on glass door dot com. Most flight attendents only get paid while they are on the aircraft, a good portion of them are not paid for a full 40 hour week. I would presume the same is true of Amtrak. So the salaries your seeing are more than likely substantially inflated.
Also note the use of the term "total compensation package" which includes various benefits. Of course, those are great, but an employee can't pay his or her monthly bills with that. And as you point out, even if a lead service attendant gets $18.08/hr, [According to glassdoor, a lead attendant gets $23.05] that does not necessarily mean they always get a 40 hr. work week. if the lead gets that amount, the attendants who are supervised would get less, maybe ~$16.00/hr [$19-21 hourly gross, according to glassdoor]. Not bad, but certainly not extravagant. So, perhaps the customary tip for dining on Amtrak should be in a lower range than in a middling restaurant?
It will be interesting to see what Amtrak decides in the next few months. I think I would first investigate what was going on via the long distance trains. Pretty sure they will find most people are NOT tipping. Hopefully they implement either a policy of tip sharing between attendant and dining car or one where there is a minimum gratuity percentage of say 8-10% per head and anything above that voluntary from the passenger is great.
Compensation and Benefits Managers, when performing salary surveys, look at wages and salaries, which is an employee's spendable income, as well as total compensation. The key number is total compensation. Potential employees almost always ask about the benefits when apply for a job because they know they are a critical component in their well being.
If an employer does not provide health insurance, the employee has to buy it out of his or her pocket, or do without, which is not a good idea. If an employee has to set aside money for a 401k, for example, he or she has less disposable income.
As noted, the $18.08 is a beginning wage for a lead service attendant. It comes off of Amtrak's job posting. As I stated, it is probably 80 per cent of the mid-point for the job. Most jobs in business (Amtrak is a business) have a wage/salary range of 80 to 120 per cent of mid-point. Also as noted, if $18.08 is the beginning wage, the mid-point probably is $22.60. If a service attendant gets 80 per cent of the mid-point of a working supervisor, who is not considered part of management in most businesses, that would peg the mid-point of his or her wage at $18.08 or $37,606 for a standard work year. Adding the typical overheads would bring the average compensation package to approximately $50,768.
According to the BLS, the annual mean wage for a train attendant is $38,740 per year. This does not include benefits, but it would include overtime. This data probably includes all train attendants, i.e. Amtrak, Alaska Railroad, etc. And it is an average of all attendants, i.e. dinning car, sleeping car, coach, etc. Depending on the raio of lead attendants to attendants, the wages for a lead attendant would not distort the averages for attendants significantly. In any case, the BLS numbers tend to support Amtrak's lead attendant number and the estimates for the service attendants.
How does glassdoor.com get its data? Does it conduct extensive salary surveys or does it just rely on what it is told by current employees? What is its statistical methodology? If it does not have any data for an attendant, as opposed to a lead attendant, this tells me that it is stripping its data off Amtrak's website and, therefore, does not have any better data than that offered by Amtrak's website.
The median compensation reported for flight attendants is not a guess. According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS) , the estimated mean annual wage for flight attendants is $41,720. The median is $38,020. They range from $24,990 in the 10th percentile to $62,470 in the 90th per centile. Applying the same burden to the median as I applied to the Amtrak positions, the outcome would be $51,327. The BLS uses reasonably robust survey and statistical models to gather and process data.
Amtrak's short haul employees probably don't rack up a lot of overtime inasmuch as the short haul trains have had a better on-time performance record than the long haul trains. The on-time performance record for the long haul trains, however, suggests that the through crews probably collect a significant amount of overtime pay. In FY11 Amtrak's system on-time performance was 78.1 per cent. The numbers were 84 per cent for the Acela, 82.1 per cent for the Corridor (NEC), 78.1 per cent for the Short Distance trains, and 63.7 per cent for the long haul trains
According to several articles that have appeared in the Dallas Morning News in conjunction with American Airlines bankruptcy proceedings, the typical wage for a flight attendant is approximately $41,000 to $44,000 per year before benefits. This information appears to square with the data reported by the BLS.
As noted by another participant, at the end of the day tipping Amtrak's employees but not tipping airline attendants or bus drivers is a function of tradition. It does not make sense to tip one group of employees and not another providing a similar service for similar compensation. But it is what it is, and it is not likely to change, at least in the short run.
^^^ OK it is different in the Private sector than it is for state government. Private Sector I can hire someone and deliver enough cash to their bottom line that they do not care about IF there is a health insurance, medical or even a pension. It's why we have independent contractors earning $50-70 an hour in this country with no medical or pension. Nothing wrong with that as they are compensated for it and can pay for their own plans. Further some benefits really do not put food on the table. Your in good health what value really does health insurance add to your bottom line? I am going to pay approx $2500 a year for Obamacare coverage by law (I have no choice). My average annual medical costs have never even approached half that number but thats another conversation on why we should never trust government Accountants.
Onto the BLS, it should be the BILS for Bureau of Inflated Labor Statistics. You know I worked for some fairly well known Fortune 100 firms in my time, IBM and General Motors to name a few. My Salary was always lower than what the BLS said it should be and I was paid median or above median for the job positions I held. BLS figures are a joke and Private employers do not even use them. Instead Private Employers contract with private companies to conduct surveys. Perhaps the State or Feds use the BLS and thats why we pay so much for State and Federal Labor that is largely unskilled for the positions they hold? Not sure.....it would be my guess though.
In terms of tipping, I always hand it to the service crew that offers me great service on my convenience. Say for example in a restaurant, I don't want my tip to be included on my bill because I want it to personally hand to my server. One of the reason that I choose to tip servers in cash is that cash goes in their pocket right away. With credit or debit tips, they have to wait until the end of the night to get them, which they might not. I am not generally speaking to the whole restaurants, but there are some restaurants that are not always exactly honest with their waitstaff.
aminaMiller In terms of tipping, I always hand it to the service crew that offers me great service on my convenience. Say for example in a restaurant, I don't want my tip to be included on my bill because I want it to personally hand to my server. One of the reason that I choose to tip servers in cash is that cash goes in their pocket right away. With credit or debit tips, they have to wait until the end of the night to get them, which they might not. I am not generally speaking to the whole restaurants, but there are some restaurants that are not always exactly honest with their waitstaff.
Tips are these grey area of worker compensation in this modern IRS regulated wage employment world.
How do you know that your wait-person is getting that tip money "right away" and that it isn't going into a pool to share with all the workers? How do you know that it isn't going to the restaurant management to be parceled out once tax withholding is taken?
Tips are an anachronism from when workers were are personal servants. I think Rodney Dangerfield had it right when he said he was nervous about riding on an airline where the captain gets on the PA speaker and announces "Your tips . . . are my salary."
When is the last time you tipped a member of an airline flight crew? That and this emphasis that trains and especially long-distance trains are the last "civilized" mode of transportation (i.e. dating from an era of distinctions of social and job status) emphasize that trains are an anachronism.
Not that there is anything wrong with that !
If GM "killed the electric car", what am I doing standing next to an EV-1, a half a block from the WSOR tracks?
That's exactly what I do M'Lady. Us working stiffs have to look out for each other.
One other thing: If I go to a restaurant that I find is dishonest or abusive of their waitstaff you can bet I won't go there again!
I assume the custom of tipping sleeping car porters goes way back to the days when most of the Pullman staff where black and did not get paid much to begin with. Pullman porters had to put up with a lot of BS treatment especially from drunk ivy league college students. Phillip Randolph changed that with the sleeping car porters union and Amtrak runs its sleepers instead of outside contractors.
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