The Superliner cars are no greater in length than the pre-Amtrak cars were and having traveled on the pre Amtrak Empire Builder that train was fifteen cars in summer and the combined Western Star/ Fast Mail often ran twenty-two cars and sometimes even longer when they had off-line sleepers going to and from Glacier National Park. I dont remember either train having to make multiple stops then, so what is the problem today.Personally I believe it is the extreme shortage of Superliners. If another order for Superliners is built then they should be able to increase Empire Builder train lengths particularly during the summer and holiday peaks. What to do with the excess equipment in the winter, simple use it for a winter service between Chicago and Miami. The City of Miami route always had good passenger loadings right up to Amtrak, but instead of using common sense they chose the PRR route to Miami. The Empire Builder and a City of Miami would fit together very nicely using the same equipment after cleaning in Chicago.
Al - in - Stockton
I have noticed that the majority of passengers on most trains are coach passengers and i assume that the onboard staff knows who supposed to board and since the privacy of the sleeper passengers is a priority and since very few sleeper passengers board at the smaller outposts why not board them on the coach closest to the sleeper. If time is of an essence . After all most service stops and smoking stops have longer platformsThe Empire Builder sleepers are generally full after Minneapolis and you may have a passenger or two for the sleepers which shouldn't poses a major problem. the City of New Orleans sleepers are usually full after Memphis. I have seen on the EB and CoNO people from sleeper using the coach exits, especially late at night. I was even told by a sleeper attendant that at Spokene if I wanted to see the switching Wi wouls have to go to the coachs because they would not use the sleepers and an exit or entrance
I C,
If we are able to go to the moon it is ridiculous to think we are unable to allow passengers to get on and off a train.
John
Johnny,
You have a good point about boarding problems at certain stations such as Greenwood, Mississippi. However, it seems to me that to accommodate a passenger with a disability it would be reasonable for the train, after others had boarded, to simply back up or move forward enough so the the person could board from the platform.
Certainly, on the Northeast Corridor, you have few passengers who may have to manage two suitcases and a laptop computer through several cars after boarding or before detraining. It can be different for passengers at stations along the way of long distance trains--especially where there is little or no platform at the door of one of the cars. Four and a half years ago, my wife and I boarded the northbound City of New Orleans at Greenwood, Mississippi (a train crew change point). The sleeper was stopped at a spot where the platform ceased to exist, and I do not remember just how the attendant and I were able to get my wife up from the ground to the floor of the car, even with the help of the step. When we last went through Greenwod (two and a half years ago), the situation was better, with more ballast on the ground (we had boarded in Jackson), but it still was not perfect.
Johnny
Paul MilenkovicSo why then would a passenger train that is longer than the platform, need to make multiple station stops to allow boarding and disembarking from each of the individual train cars? Especially for an intermediate station stop, couldn't passenger be directed to use the doors from only certain train cars?
On the northeast corridor line at least Amtrak does exactly that. It is common to open doors on only 3 cars and to direct passengers alighting to use those doors. It really is not a big deal.
The Texas Eagle makes two stops at Taylor, as well as several other stations in Texas, if it is entraining or detraining first class and coach passengers.
Taylor has a very short ADA compliant platform. It has a longer non-compliant platform, but the crews don't use it to load passengers, in part because of the verification process described below. Detraining passengers are permitted to get off the train onto the non-ADA portions of the platform, if the coach attendant opens the door and places a step stool on the platform.
Numbers 21 and 22 have the sleeper ahead of the dinning and lounge cars. The train stops first for sleeping car passengers. Once they are on-board, it pulls ahead and stops again for coach passengers.
The conductor examines each passenger's ticket before he or she is permitted to board the Eagle. They do it at the ADA compliant platform to cover any mobility challenged passengers. Having the conductor verify each ticket before a passenger boards the train is a TSA requirement. After the conductor looks at the ticket, the car attendant looks at it and directs the passenger to her room or gives the coach passenger a seat check and tells him which car to sit in.
Once the train is underway, the conductor will check each coach seat passenger to be sure that she has placed the seat check above her seat. He is also checking to see who is getting off at the next stop. This takes about 10 minutes.
If coach passengers board through the sleeper, they have to walk through the lounge and dinning cars with their luggage to get to one of three coaches. This can be a minor albeit not insurmountable problem. If sleeping car passengers entrain through a coach, they have to tote their luggage through the dinning and lounge cars to their room, although one would think that the sleeping car attendant could handle this problem.
Another reason for the two stops, so I was told by a UP employee, who may or may not know what he is talking about, is because Amtrak does not want coach passengers walking through the sleeper, thereby potentially disturbing the first class passengers.
jrbernier Passenger train length is too short to really cause any braking issues. The big operational problem is station platform length. If they have to make multiple stops at a station, it can affect time keeping. When I worked for the cB&Q, we had a combined Morning Zephyr/Empire Builder/North Coast Ltd that ran over 25 cars. This was the day before Memorial Day when the train where split up for the summer. Making 3 stops on the short Winona Jct platform resulted in a 20 minute delay.
Passenger train length is too short to really cause any braking issues. The big operational problem is station platform length. If they have to make multiple stops at a station, it can affect time keeping. When I worked for the cB&Q, we had a combined Morning Zephyr/Empire Builder/North Coast Ltd that ran over 25 cars. This was the day before Memorial Day when the train where split up for the summer. Making 3 stops on the short Winona Jct platform resulted in a 20 minute delay.
I don't "get" this thing about a long passenger train having to make multiple station stops.
"Back in the day" the concern was whether the airlines could board/disembark a 747 "jumbo jet" without having to use multiple boarding ramps. I remember seeing "concept" drawings of the then proposed 747, showing boarding ramps at multiple doors, including "bank shots" of cantelevering a boarding ramp to an over-the-wing door.
Don't know about the A380 super jumbo, but it seems the airlines manage, no, they actually enjoy herding the passengers on and off even their biggest jets, all through one door. The only reason, it seems, that they have more than one door is for an emergency situation, such as a hard landing, where they have to get everyone out of the plane in the Federally mandated 90 seconds.
So why then would a passenger train that is longer than the platform, need to make multiple station stops to allow boarding and disembarking from each of the individual train cars? Especially for an intermediate station stop, couldn't passenger be directed to use the doors from only certain train cars?
If GM "killed the electric car", what am I doing standing next to an EV-1, a half a block from the WSOR tracks?
dakotafred jrbernier Sleeping car space can also be affected by ' shorts' - Like someone booking space between Chicago and Fargo.. That space is now tied up and Chicago-Seattle passengers will not see a room the first night out. We took the EB a few years ago from Winona to Seatlle to meet an Alaskan cruise. I was able to get sleeping car space WB, but we could not get space EB. I kept checking and finally got a cancelled space while in Alaska! I am not sure if it was cancelled by an individual party or was part of a group bock that was released. Bingo, surely one of the flaws of the LD rail-passenger model. I thought of this a couple of months ago, when my wife and I enjoyed a roomette on the Builder for the 12 hours (daylight both ways) between Minot and Whitefish, Mont. I had booked 10 months ahead of time to ensure the space -- always a good idea -- and I'm sure some other poor soul wanting to go Chicago-Seattle was subsequently out of luck.
jrbernier Sleeping car space can also be affected by ' shorts' - Like someone booking space between Chicago and Fargo.. That space is now tied up and Chicago-Seattle passengers will not see a room the first night out. We took the EB a few years ago from Winona to Seatlle to meet an Alaskan cruise. I was able to get sleeping car space WB, but we could not get space EB. I kept checking and finally got a cancelled space while in Alaska! I am not sure if it was cancelled by an individual party or was part of a group bock that was released.
Sleeping car space can also be affected by ' shorts' - Like someone booking space between Chicago and Fargo.. That space is now tied up and Chicago-Seattle passengers will not see a room the first night out. We took the EB a few years ago from Winona to Seatlle to meet an Alaskan cruise. I was able to get sleeping car space WB, but we could not get space EB. I kept checking and finally got a cancelled space while in Alaska! I am not sure if it was cancelled by an individual party or was part of a group bock that was released.
Bingo, surely one of the flaws of the LD rail-passenger model. I thought of this a couple of months ago, when my wife and I enjoyed a roomette on the Builder for the 12 hours (daylight both ways) between Minot and Whitefish, Mont. I had booked 10 months ahead of time to ensure the space -- always a good idea -- and I'm sure some other poor soul wanting to go Chicago-Seattle was subsequently out of luck.
To be flipant --- when enough equipment is available -- long enough to carry everyone who wants a reservation can get it with 3 days notice. ( that allows time to make up consist in CHI / SEATTLE and maybe even spares in St. paul / Spokane).
Your correct. I mistakenly mixed rooms and spaces; I have corrected and adjusted my original post.
Sam1 The pro-forma numbers for the Empire Builder show that approximately 87,000 passengers will book sleeping car space in FY12. The trains offer 245,280 rooms for sale during the year. Assuming one passenger per room, the load factor would be approximately 70 per cent, which means that during the high season(s) the train probably would be sold out on occasion. Assuming two people per room, the occupancy rate drops to 35.5 per cent, whilst it would be 47.2 per cent if the occupancy rate averaged 1.5 person per room. The actual occupancy rate probably is somewhere between the low and high estimates.
The pro-forma numbers for the Empire Builder show that approximately 87,000 passengers will book sleeping car space in FY12. The trains offer 245,280 rooms for sale during the year. Assuming one passenger per room, the load factor would be approximately 70 per cent, which means that during the high season(s) the train probably would be sold out on occasion. Assuming two people per room, the occupancy rate drops to 35.5 per cent, whilst it would be 47.2 per cent if the occupancy rate averaged 1.5 person per room. The actual occupancy rate probably is somewhere between the low and high estimates.
I'm missing something here It seems to me that if you have 245,280 rooms and 87,000 are occupied by one person that is a 35.5% rate. If the average occupancy is 1.5 people per room the occupancy drops to 23.6%. What did I misunderstand?
For the first 10 months of last fiscal year, the Builder had 70,027 sleeping car passengers, so I can accept the 87,000 as a reasonable yearly figure. However, I'm wondering about the 245,280 rooms available. Is that the result of an analysis of the Builder consist or did it come out of some Amtrak report?
Finally, I'm disturbed by the (apparently widespread) reports of trains sold out of sleeping car space and the results being calculated here.
dakotafred Sam1 The overall load factor for the Builder was 60.9 per cent through August 2012 vs. 62.8 per cent for the long distance trains as a whole. In FY11 the overall load factor for the Builder was 57.5 per cent. Given these numbers, whilst it may be a good decision to add cars to the Builder during the high season(s), it does not appear that they would be required for most of the year, which means that they would have to be stored and, therefore, would not earn any revenue whilst idle. Or they might be useful on other routes, like New York-Florida, in the EB's off-season.
Sam1 The overall load factor for the Builder was 60.9 per cent through August 2012 vs. 62.8 per cent for the long distance trains as a whole. In FY11 the overall load factor for the Builder was 57.5 per cent. Given these numbers, whilst it may be a good decision to add cars to the Builder during the high season(s), it does not appear that they would be required for most of the year, which means that they would have to be stored and, therefore, would not earn any revenue whilst idle.
The overall load factor for the Builder was 60.9 per cent through August 2012 vs. 62.8 per cent for the long distance trains as a whole. In FY11 the overall load factor for the Builder was 57.5 per cent.
Given these numbers, whilst it may be a good decision to add cars to the Builder during the high season(s), it does not appear that they would be required for most of the year, which means that they would have to be stored and, therefore, would not earn any revenue whilst idle.
Or they might be useful on other routes, like New York-Florida, in the EB's off-season.
They could not be used on the New York to Florida services because Superliner cars cannot operate north of D.C. They could perhaps be used on the Auto Train if demand warrants it. The average load factor on the Auto Train for FY11 was approximately 68 per cent, which is considerably above the load factor for the long distance trains and well above the average load factor for the system as a whole.
Jim
Modeling BNSF and Milwaukee Road in SW Wisconsin
The pro-forma numbers for the Empire Builder show that approximately 87,000 passengers will book sleeping car space in FY12. The trains offer 102,200 to 122,640 rooms or 204,200 to 245,280 spaces for sale during the year. The difference depends on whether the train has a transition sleeper to Seattle or whether it uses a portion of one of the sleepers for the crew.
I understand that the train has three sleepers to Seattle and one sleeper to Portland. That was the case when I rode the train two years ago. And I rode it in the first week of December, which is clearly not the high season.
Assuming one passenger per room, the average room load factor would be would be approximately 85 per cent to 71 per cent whilst the average space load factors would be approximately 42 to 35 per cent. The actual occupancy rate would be somewhere between the low and high estimates.
The key question is whether the incremental or marginal cost of the additional space (coach and sleeper) would be offset by the incremental revenues. I suspect that management has looked at the issue and decided that it cannot justify the additional space.
This post has been corrected and updated.
jrbernier . The big operational problem is station platform length. If they have to make multiple stops at a station, it can affect time keeping. Amtrak's big issue is getting more equipment - The Empire Builder is always running short on sleepers. Jim The only solution would probably add another loco to increase acceleration not only out of stations but after the many slower sections ? correct about short on sleepers but also now short on coaches. See the following AMTRAK ink pages 14 - 15 to see how Williston has increased passengers twice as much due to the fracking boom. Also other ND stations. http://www.amtrak.com/ccurl/880/348/Amtrak-Ink-Oct-2012.pdf The coach shortage probably can only be solved if superliner coaches are robbed from midwest service but the inability of substitute Horizon equipment to handle the harsh winter weather will have to be solved first. 6 train sets really ups the requirement for finding additional cars.
. The big operational problem is station platform length. If they have to make multiple stops at a station, it can affect time keeping.
Amtrak's big issue is getting more equipment - The Empire Builder is always running short on sleepers.
The only solution would probably add another loco to increase acceleration not only out of stations but after the many slower sections ?
correct about short on sleepers but also now short on coaches. See the following AMTRAK ink pages 14 - 15 to see how Williston has increased passengers twice as much due to the fracking boom. Also other ND stations.
http://www.amtrak.com/ccurl/880/348/Amtrak-Ink-Oct-2012.pdf
I noticed that Amtrak is thinking about changing the consist of the Empire Builder, and I was wondering whether anyone had ideas as to the ideal train length for the Empire Builder route, keeping in mind that the train has to be split at Spokane.
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