Bill Metzger's map of rail lines in and around Pittsburgh shows a CSX track that runs along the Youghogheny River. The Capitol Limited runs along this line betweent Connellsville PA and Pittsburgh. There are no stops along the 60 mile run. About midway (I don't know the exact distance) is Ohiopyle where trains once stopped. Edgar Kaufman, Jr. would leave New York Penn Station Friday nights and ride along this route getting off at Ohiopyle to spend the weekend at his house on Bear Run, Falling Water. According to its website today about 160,000 people visit Falling Water each year but they don't take the train because there is no longer a stop there even in the summer months. Many people consider Falling Water to be Frank Lloyd Wright's iconic home; it is certainly the most famous home he designed and today it is open to the public. From Washington the Capitol Limited passes through Ohiopyle late in the evening and the return train leaves early in the morning. If it were possible to take the train there as Edgar Kaufman, Jr. did there are nearby hotels and restaurants.
I don't know how Amtrak decides where its trains will stop. When I visited Falling Water several months ago I looked at the tracks and wished I might have taken the train. Other Amtrak enthusiasts may have the same wish.
A couple things immediately come to mind:
Its not just "late in the evening." Its the middle of the night. There aren't exactly a lot of services in Ohiopyle. That's not super-convienent.
Secondly, the overwhelming majority of those 160,000 just make the drive in from Pittsburgh. You'd be looking at, at best, single digit passengers per day in the summer.
Honestly, I had no idea the Capitol Limited even went through Ohiopyle. Its in my post-dinner snooze or post-breakfast nap.
The borough has a population of 77. if you got off the train there (if it stopped) how would you get to Falling Water, which is over two miles from the borough? Maybe the train made a special stop for Kaufman, since the B&O runs very close to the property.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
The Capitol Limited arrives in Connellsville at 9:47 pm and in Pittsburgh 11:48 pm. These are not ideal times but they are not impossible either. There are accommodations close by; we stayed at a hotel a few miles down the road. There would have to be a shuttle bus but that too is not impossible.
Do you have any evidence that almost all of the 160,000 yearly visitors are from Pittsburgh? The day I visited there were people from all over the United States and from foreign countries.
Ohiopyle certainly is a small place. But Falling Water is a world famous home. Perhaps it is even worth a visit from an alumnus of Penn State.
The train stops so late in the evening there would have to be a shuttle bus to hotels and motels in the area. I stayed at one hotel and I saw others.
Here is one link that lists 7 places to stay:
http://www.fallingwaterlodging.com/
Have you written Amtrak with the suggestion?
No I haven't. Is there a way to send Amtrak a suggestion? If there is I would do it. Frankly, I don't know how they make decisions about where to stop or not to stop. However, it seems to me that it is worth considering a stop for people who might want to consider the train. Falling Water is in the mountains and the roads, especially local roads, are steep and treacherous;
Edgar Kaufman, Jr. didn't get off or board at Ohiopyle, Penna.; he boarded in Manhattan at Pennsylvania Station and took the Pennsy westward to Greensburg. At Greensburg he would be met by a car (think chauffeur) and be driven to Fallingwater (one word). He would return home the same way.
He didn't take the B&O to Ohiopyle for several reasons. First, imagine a rich man using Pennsylvania Station. He gets out of his car (chauffeured) and walks a few feet downstairs to his waiting and cozy Pullman room or suite. Now imagine this same man getting out of his chauffeured car....and boarding a bus? that takes him to Jersey City? No way. Second, the B&O wasn't the Pennsy. With the Pennsy, Mr. Kaufman would have had a choice of fine trains at different times. With the B&O from NYC, not so much.
No train that Mr. Kaufman might remotely consider riding stopped at Ohiopyle. Ever. Not even upon his command. Should he somehow have to ride the B&O, he would debark at Connellsville.
Mr. Kaufman mentioned Penn Station in his reminiscences; no word about the B&O.
As far as Amtrak stopping there, I'm afraid I agree. Nothing short of a local train is suitable. I can't imagine an Amtrak station there, manned or unmanned. Even so, how would tourists then physically get to Fallingwater?
Btw, have any of you who have been to Fallingwater been to nearby Cucumber Falls? Gorgeous place. At Ohiopyle, one can go whitewater rafting, bike to DC on the former WM mainline bike path, tour Fallingwater, or have lunch at Cucumber Falls (that's 2 water falls in a day). Not bad for a hamlet of 77 persons.
I have ridden the Capitol Limited through Ohiopyle many times, always with the door window open, head hanging out, inhaling the fresh mountain air, taking in the sights, remembering my own former times there. A magical place.
But an Amtrak stop? Fuggeddaboutit.
John WR No I haven't. Is there a way to send Amtrak a suggestion? If there is I would do it. Frankly, I don't know how they make decisions about where to stop or not to stop. However, it seems to me that it is worth considering a stop for people who might want to consider the train. Falling Water is in the mountains and the roads, especially local roads, are steep and treacherous;
Freight trains do not even stop at Ohiopyle.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Having grown up in Pittsburgh, Fallingwater was always a school field trip sort of place or a out-and-back on a Saturday with the girlfriend.
Suppose there was a stop. Its times would only be useful to the visitor from west of Ohiopyle. And those people are driving because its time competitive and cost competitive for visiting just Fallingwater. Perhaps it would be useful for people doing other things, like whitewater rafting or kayaking.
But.
Thurmond WV has a stop. Its in the New River Gorge, a national park. Its one of the top whitewater rivers on the East Coast. The park sees over a million visitors a year. Thurmond is the second least used stop in the US. There's another station at the other end of the park, the name of which escapes me right now. The two of them combined average to just over two passengers per day.
That's not to say that historic sites with six digit tourism would not be well served by Amtrak. Harper's Ferry has around 260,000 visitors a year and sees 5,000 passengers a year at the station. But it also serves as a major jumping off or end point for the C&O Canal or Appalachian Trail. Lots of people with bikes and backpackers getting on and off there. They're just different situations.
About Edgar Kaufman, Jr's trip I stand corrected.
Driving around I saw campers and whitewater rafters enjoying the river. It certainly is a beautiful place and attracts a lot of people or at least it did when I was there. I didn't write about it because aside from driving by I don't know anything about it. Also, from the perspective of taking the train I think campers are unlikely to.
However, as I said above the Fallingwater website states that about 160,000 visitors come each year. There are hotels nearby. Shuttle buses between hotels and railroad stations and hotels and points of interest are not unheard of. Driving by I could see the tracks running right along the road and the map published in "Trains" made me think that the Capitol Limited could be a reasonable way to get to Fallingwater.
Perhaps you are right and Amtrak would not consider such a stop. I hope you continue to enjoy the fresh mountain air.
John WR,
I cringed when I saw just now that this is only your 10th comment here! I'm afraid my earlier contribution might be a bit too "edgy" for one so new here as yourself. In any event, welcome! and don't allow yourself to be bullied around here, by me or anyone else.
That being said, you're 100% correct about shuttle buses between hotels and railroad stations. I can think of a number of such examples.
I'll hope that the next time you are enjoying the natural and rail-related beauty of Ohiopyle, that when you look up and see The Capitol Limited passing by, the guy in the sleeper with the door window open, waving back at you, will be me!
John WR No I haven't. Is there a way to send Amtrak a suggestion? If there is I would do it. Frankly, I don't know how they make decisions about where to stop or not to stop. However, it seems to me that it is worth considering a stop for people who might want to consider the train. Falling Water is in the mountains and the roads, especially local roads, are steep and treacherous.
No I haven't. Is there a way to send Amtrak a suggestion? If there is I would do it. Frankly, I don't know how they make decisions about where to stop or not to stop. However, it seems to me that it is worth considering a stop for people who might want to consider the train. Falling Water is in the mountains and the roads, especially local roads, are steep and treacherous.
Send your suggestion to Mr. Boardman in a well formatted snail mail letter. Briefly state your issue, along with a recommended solution(s), and outline the benefits of your proposal. State the benefits for Amtrak as well as its customers. Doing so is likely to get a better play than just stating the benefits from the customer's point of view.
I have written to Mr. Boardman or one of his predecessors at least 10 times. I use snail mail as opposed to e-mail. I have received a thoughtful reply each time. Amtrak did not adopt most of my suggestions, i.e. assigning seats on most trains, running the Texas Eagle over the Trinity Railway Express (TRE) line between Fort Worth and Dallas, but I always got a reasonable explanation as to why my idea did not meet Amtrak's needs.
One idea that is getting some traction is the recommendation for running the Eagle from Fort Worth to Dallas on the TRE. I am sure that my letter is not what triggered Amtrak's serious consideration of the idea, as reported in another thread, but it is nice to think that it had may have had some impact. Shortly after I received a reply to my letter from the VP of Amtrak's operations, Amtrak ran a test train (P42 and one Superliner coach) from Fort Worth to Dallas and back over the TRE.
Give it a go! The only thing that it will cost you is a little time and the cost of a sheet of paper, envelope, and stamp.
Falling Water is a great design by my favorite architect and probably America's greatest, FL Wright. The state park there is also great as i recall one glorious fall day years ago. However, it is unlikely the traffic would warrant a train stop, anymore than Thurmond, WVA does. Almost anyone going to either attraction would need/want an automobile to get to the site, even if they were staying nearby.
schlimm Falling Water is a great design by my favorite architect and probably America's greatest, FL Wright. The state park there is also great as i recall one glorious fall day years ago. However, it is unlikely the traffic would warrant a train stop, anymore than Thurmond, WVA does. Almost anyone going to either attraction would need/want an automobile to get to the site, even if they were staying nearby.
The difference between Thurmond, WV and Ohiopyle,PA - Thurmond has been a stop on the C&O as a predecessor to Amtrack on the route. Ohiopyle has never been a stop on the B&O as the predecessor to Amtrak. While passenger counts may be nearly equal, the history is not.
There was a B&O station in Ohiopyle. It wasn't called Ohiopyle, but Falls City.
According to my Baltimore & Ohio Railroad System Time Tables issued May 22, 1927, there most certainly was a station stop at Ohio Pyle (note spelling). The schedule shows Ohio Pyle to be milepost 451.1 with an altitude of 1223 feet above sea level. Westward, several trains stopped at Ohio Pyle: No. 511-11-23 the Western Express, a Baltimore to Pittsburgh train of coaches, with a parlor car and diner only as far as Cumberland, stopped at Ohio Pyle at 4:05 PM. Train No. 43-69, a Cumberland to Pittsburgh accommodation, stopped at 8:17 AM. Train No. 3-17 stopped on flag at 6:26 AM. Train 41-65, another such accommodation, stopped on flag at 4:21 PM. Eastward, train No. 16-528, the Chicago-Pittsburgh-Washington-Baltimore Express, stopped at 3:13 PM. Train No. 66-42 stopped at 9:01 AM, and train No. 44 stopped at 4:50 PM.
I am as surprised as anyone upon seeing this in print. Busy place, huh?
Btw, no reference to Falls City in this timetable.
Thank you, Sam, for your information. I appreciate it and the interest several people have shown. However, after a lot of thought and some research I think I shall not write the letter.
What would make the most sense here is to offer a package of both train fare and cost of lodging to Pittsburgh. Amtrak does this already in its "Getaway" packages for Boston, New York, Philadelphia, Washington DC, Chicago and a number of other cities around the country. Pittsburgh has a population of about 300,000 with about 230 million in the metropolitan area. The cities I like are all larger; Boston and Washington have populations of about 600,000. I suspect Amtrak is not inclined to offer a "Getaway" combination for a city the size of Pittsburgh or it would already be doing so.
One poster noted that Amtrak does offer service at white water rafting sites in West Virginia. However, simply because Amtrak has traditionally offered service in certain places, perhaps in continuation of similar services offered by earlier railroads, it does not follow that Amtrak is looking to innovate by opening up new places to similar services in the absence of strong local interest to do so. One thing jumps out from Amtrak's time table. Two trains run to Pittsburgh but 14 trains run to Harrisburg, a city of abut 50,000. The Harrisburg trains are part of Amtrak's Keystone service which is paid for by the State of Pennsylvania. I can only wonder why Pennsylvania doesn't consider a second daily train to Pittsburgh to be funded by a reduction of the total number of trains to Harrisburg. I know Harrisburg is the Capital city but 14 trains is still a lot. Considering the number of trains running to Harrisburg relative to Pittsburgh it it clear that Pennsylvania is not making much effort here.
As much as I like Amtrak and want to ride it right now I don't think we can look to Amtrak to change what it is doing. But as I say, I appreciate your interest and the interest of everyone.
There's far, far more towns and just flat out more people between Harrisburg and Philadelphia than Pittsburgh and Harrisburg. Its also a lot slower and less direct. There's also different attitudes towards mass transit in SEPTA country versus PAT country. Its been 23 years since PATrain stopped operating but SEPTA keeps on going.
City population is sort of a meaningless measure. Its so...randomly laid out as to challenge logic. But city population, Pittsburgh is smaller than Corpus Christi TX. But Corpus Christi encompasses a much larger area. If Pittsburgh and Allegheny County merged (like Philadelphia and Philadelphia County), Pittsburgh would be a larger city than Philadelphia. Or Boston, DC, Miami, and Atlanta. Yet by every other definition, all those cities are larger than Pittsburgh. Metro area is the best measure, which is what the government uses. Pittsburgh is sitting at around 2.3 in the area, but Boston is closer to 5.5 and DC is closer to 6.
We agree about DC. I looked up Boston on Wiki again and it gave several population figures so I went to Information Please Almanac. It says the 2010 census shows Boston has about 617,000 people.
Frankly, I don't understand your comment that "City population is almost a meaningless measure." Certainly there are other factors to be considered but it seems to me population is not totally irrelevant.
What did strike me is that while Amtrak offers a number of "Getaway packages" which include train fare and lodging there are none for Pittsburgh even thought it is a good sized city with a number of cultural attractions. The attractions included several colleges and universities where parents might want to visit children. I wonder why Amtrak does not offer them. Is it because Amtrak has considered a Pittsburgh "Getaway" and rejected it? Or it is because it has never been considered? Intuitively it seems a reasonable idea to me but since I don't know what Amtrac's thinking is and since I've never been to Pittsburgh I'm not inclined to make a judgement about the issue.
I read Fred Frailey's article about Amtrak and Joe Boardman twice. Frailey reports Amtrak is not pursuing a daily Sunset train from New Orleans to Los Angeles which would greatly improve service with a small saving in cost. I think that says a lot about Amtrak.
Metropolitan Statistical Area is the standard metric used in evaluating market potentials. While Pittsburgh ranks #22 with 2,359,746 people in 2011, Boston ranks #10 with 4,591,112 people, Philly #6 with 5,992,414, and Washington, DC #7 with 5,703,948. Additionally, DC, Philly and Boston have far more cultural and historical attractions than Pittsburgh. So there really isn't any comparison with those other three cities. As far as air travel goes, Pittsburgh's one airport ranks # 46 with just under 4 mil. passengers, while Philly ranks #18 with almost 15 mil., and DC's three area airports have 30.8 mil. passengers combined.
"Rejected" and "never considered" are functionally the same for Pittsburgh. Its not a tourist destination. There's no shortage of things to do there and its a hidden gem as far as cultural attractions go, but its not the sort of city that you take the train to.
MSAs are the best way to measure how large a city is. DC, for instance, cannot annex any more land. It has a cap on its absolute maximum population. But to say that it only has 600,000 people doesn't really tell the story. There's 350,000 people in Arlington and Alexandria, which used to be part of DC. No we don't count in DC's population, but guess where we work, what city we identify with, what media market we're in, where we spend our entertainment money, and so on. Because of the peculiarities of geography, a lot of those people are actually closer to the National Mall and all the landmarks than actual DC residents. Then, there's places like Fairfax County (1.1 million) and its enormous commuter population. And that's not even going in to Maryland. That's why city population doesn't tell the whole story.
The numbers for the three MSA'a were above your post.
It may be worth considering that electric service ends at Harrisburg and this may be part of the reason that west-of-Harrisburg service is not so frequent or available.
aegrotatio It may be worth considering that electric service ends at Harrisburg and this may be part of the reason that west-of-Harrisburg service is not so frequent or available.
The PRR never built cat west of H'berg. NS owns and operates the rails west of H'brg. It is therefore a freight railroad in the minds of the operators.
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