As silly as it may seem, the reason for having two powered locomotives on the Vermonter is the required engine change at New Haven. The ex-metroliner cab cars used to run through from Washington. They were usually run behind the AEM7 and only used cab-first south of Palmer as they were unpopular with the crews due to grade crossing exposure. Use of a an NPCU would require a switcher at New Haven where the P42's can be operated right to (or from) both ends of the consist. Typically one of the two units supplies HEP for the whole consist, with the lead unit supplying traction power.
With next years' cut in of the Conn River line between Springfield and E. Northfield MA, only a short backup move (back in SB, out NB) is required at Springfield, so only one engine will be required.
DMUinCT It takes more power to tackle the (Green Mountains) at Speed.
It takes more power to tackle the (Green Mountains) at Speed.
I don't believe it. Typically, when you have a steep grade, you have speed restrictions on account of curves.
Let's say you have a P42, 6 Amfleet cars, and an ex-F40 cab car. That is 600 tons, total, right there. We can leave out rolling resistance because that is some small fraction of the tractive effort requirement of almost any grade. Let us say this consist requires 2800 HP to maintain 79 MPH, which is largely aerodynamic resistance (assigning 2 gal/mile for a single locomotive to maintain track speed with that consist, 7 pounds/gallon, 79 MPH, .4 lb/HP-HR specific fuel consumption), aero HP goes as the cube of speed, 700 HP at 50 MPH.
3300 HP at 50 MPH generates 25,000 lb tractive effort (well within the "continuous rating" limit of the traction motors Don Oltmann told me about), which can send that train up a 2 percent grade.
Any fool can maintain schedule by way over-powering a train, but the whole point of trains is that a small amount of HP can move a heavy train. Since the George Stephenson days, economical operation of trains, even express passenger trains, was obtained by dispatching the right level of HP.
If GM "killed the electric car", what am I doing standing next to an EV-1, a half a block from the WSOR tracks?
I don't believe Amtrak has any "real" F40PH's on their roster; they have all been converted to NPCU's. I have some rare video of F40's from the summer of 2000, when several were reactivated to assist with equipment shortages. The end would come in 2001, when 85 more P42's came.
watch?v=oc8IDXktzk
watch?v=yjtA0LEP2c8
watch?v=6F9XKfqUiWo
The Land of the Lime Green and Yellow!
[View:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U4ivk2zhp5E]
The "Vermonter" departs the "corridor" at New Haven and heads north to Hartford and Springfield MA on a 79mph line now being Double Tracked. Then east on the CSX Main (B&A) to Palmer MA and the Central New England (Central Vermont). CNE is finishing the re-laying of the line with welded rail all the way to At. Albins, 79mph posting.
CNE and CN now have a government grant to rebuild and upgrade the line from St. Albins to Montreal including increasing bridge capacity for freight as well as faster passenger service. The old, and more direct, Springfield MA to Vermont line is being rebuilt by Norfolk Southern as part of the Pan Am Southern alliance and again with government money.
It takes more power to tackle the Green Montains at Speed.
Don U. TCA 73-5735
Paul Milenkovic YoHo1975: Most often, when I lived down there, such a trainset used P42s at both ends So then, what is the story behind having a P42 Genesis locomotive at both ends of a corridor consist? I saw the Vermont train with that kind of consist, and it seemed that both locomotives were powered as I saw haze coming out of both exhaust stacks as the train departed a station. Is having a P42 locomotive (running) at both ends of a 4-6 car train an expedient way of having a cab at each end of the train? Or do the schedules benefit from that amount of power? And if the trains don't need that much power, could they simply shut down to trailing unit to save fuel? Or is one of the units in idle so as to power air brakes and other auxiliaries?
YoHo1975: Most often, when I lived down there, such a trainset used P42s at both ends
Most often, when I lived down there, such a trainset used P42s at both ends
So then, what is the story behind having a P42 Genesis locomotive at both ends of a corridor consist? I saw the Vermont train with that kind of consist, and it seemed that both locomotives were powered as I saw haze coming out of both exhaust stacks as the train departed a station.
Is having a P42 locomotive (running) at both ends of a 4-6 car train an expedient way of having a cab at each end of the train? Or do the schedules benefit from that amount of power? And if the trains don't need that much power, could they simply shut down to trailing unit to save fuel? Or is one of the units in idle so as to power air brakes and other auxiliaries?
"The Vermonter" or "When Good Trains Go Bad."
A brief history (as good as my recollection anyway)
It used to be the Montrealer and was a pretty popular train - in good part because you could ride it local between DC and NY and it had a really nice lounge car. It ran all the way on the NEC to New London and then on the CV to Montreal - overnight.
Then it go flipped to a day train and cut back to St Albans VT. It ran up the NEC to NH and then on the branch to Springfield MA. From there it went straight up the B&M (Guilford, now Pan Am) where it picked up the CV route near the VT border.
But, Guilford/Pan Am let their portion of the route deteriorate and/or there was flooding (10-15 years ago?) and the train was rerouted over Conrail (B&A/Boston Line) to where they could get back on the "old" CV route at Palmer. The problem is you have to reverse directions at Palmer.
For quite a while, Amtrak used ex-Metroliner cab cars for this, but now, locos on both ends? I guess the cab cars are all busy with Harrisburg service these days. Amtrak really could use some cab cars. Bad enough they lug those cider-blockish "cabbage" things around, consuming fuel and generating no revenue. But, two P42s?
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
I assume it's just to facilitate a control car. Maybe having two improves it's acceleration out of stations? I believe the F59s are better at that.
I've also see Surfliners run with Dash 8 32s so they'll pull whatever they have in the LA pool when they're short trainsets.
YoHo1975 Most often, when I lived down there, such a trainset used P42s at both ends
Those are emergency equipment used when not enough surfliner sets are available. They are not normal. The F40PHs in use, at least recently aren't actually cabbage cars, they are control cars off of Cascade service used with the Talgos since the Talgo control car didn't meet FRA requirements. There is no baggage in them.
Most often, when I lived down there, such a trainset used P42s at both ends, so I'm not sure the lament is well founded.
And to me it is a wise reuse of existing resources, and Amtrak gets my approval for doing so.
The Budd equipment on the Canadian still gets raive reviews and it is a lot older than Surfliner Anfleet cars.
ontheBNSF DwightBranch: ontheBNSF: A more common site on the Amtrak surfliner is the sight of vintage Amtrak f40ph's they look so old school along with that single decker cars, seems like such old equipment that you would find in a museum does Amtrak keep these because they don't have enough new equipment to go around? I am honestly curious. I am not familiar with that train, but I believe most of the remaining F40PHs have been converted to "cabbage" cars, with the engine removed and a baggage area where the engine used to be. They prefer those to lead on push-pull trains rather than a cab car because they stay on the rail better when they hit a car at a crossing. You would be able to tell because another engine would be on the other end supplying the power. I see them in configurations used by itself or with the assistance of GE P42s
DwightBranch: ontheBNSF: A more common site on the Amtrak surfliner is the sight of vintage Amtrak f40ph's they look so old school along with that single decker cars, seems like such old equipment that you would find in a museum does Amtrak keep these because they don't have enough new equipment to go around? I am honestly curious. I am not familiar with that train, but I believe most of the remaining F40PHs have been converted to "cabbage" cars, with the engine removed and a baggage area where the engine used to be. They prefer those to lead on push-pull trains rather than a cab car because they stay on the rail better when they hit a car at a crossing. You would be able to tell because another engine would be on the other end supplying the power.
ontheBNSF: A more common site on the Amtrak surfliner is the sight of vintage Amtrak f40ph's they look so old school along with that single decker cars, seems like such old equipment that you would find in a museum does Amtrak keep these because they don't have enough new equipment to go around? I am honestly curious.
A more common site on the Amtrak surfliner is the sight of vintage Amtrak f40ph's they look so old school along with that single decker cars, seems like such old equipment that you would find in a museum does Amtrak keep these because they don't have enough new equipment to go around? I am honestly curious.
I am not familiar with that train, but I believe most of the remaining F40PHs have been converted to "cabbage" cars, with the engine removed and a baggage area where the engine used to be. They prefer those to lead on push-pull trains rather than a cab car because they stay on the rail better when they hit a car at a crossing. You would be able to tell because another engine would be on the other end supplying the power.
I see them in configurations used by itself or with the assistance of GE P42s
Here is a photo of one on the Surfliner, five digit numbers if they no longer have an engine, note the sliding door toward the back for baggage.
DwightBranch ontheBNSF: A more common site on the Amtrak surfliner is the sight of vintage Amtrak f40ph's they look so old school along with that single decker cars, seems like such old equipment that you would find in a museum does Amtrak keep these because they don't have enough new equipment to go around? I am honestly curious. I am not familiar with that train, but I believe most of the remaining F40PHs have been converted to "cabbage" cars, with the engine removed and a baggage area where the engine used to be. They prefer those to lead on push-pull trains rather than a cab car because they stay on the rail better when they hit a car at a crossing. You would be able to tell because another engine would be on the other end supplying the power.
Railroad to Freedom
ontheBNSF A more common site on the Amtrak surfliner is the sight of vintage Amtrak f40ph's they look so old school along with that single decker cars, seems like such old equipment that you would find in a museum does Amtrak keep these because they don't have enough new equipment to go around? I am honestly curious.
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