Paui..you are right about the marketing angle. ALso, in auto services that offer $20 oil and lube jobs knowing that they'lll probably find a $500 job to do on your car someplace. Or, fund raising for PBS or other such orginizations...get a DVD set or something with your pledge....sounds like it might wipe out the pledge but only the first one...next year they will get an automatic renewell and more after that. Coupons and come ons are aimed at gettin you a second, third...etc...time. And that you'll either tell or bring your family and friends. Grandpa wants to go..but only by train...he gets a cheap seat but the rest of the family will pay full fare! Marketing. Marketing. Marketing.
RIDEWITHMEHENRY is the name for our almost monthly day of riding trains and transit in either the NYCity or Philadelphia areas including all commuter lines, Amtrak, subways, light rail and trolleys, bus and ferries when warranted. No fees, just let us know you want to join the ride and pay your fares. Ask to be on our email list or find us on FB as RIDEWITHMEHENRY (all caps) to get descriptions of each outing.
That's nothing, Don. I had a roofing contractor out to the place to repair damage to the soffit who charged based on income. The guy they sent out chats me up as he gets his ladders out, "So, what do you do for a living? And your wife? Oh, that must be interesting work that you do!"
The thing about most senior discounts is that none of it is done out of charity and none of it needs to be means tested. Many seniors have leisure time and some amount of money to spend without feeling they have to "save for the kids' college fund" or "save for retirement" (they are already retired and know what financial shape they are in, and maybe some of the money can go to the kids and grandkids, but you can't take any of it with you).
Maybe, maybe, seniors are good customers of many of the goods and services offering "senior discounts", and the senior discount is a marketing tool to get seniors to part with more of their money.
With respect to the demand management fares of airlines and Amtrak, part of this is to fill seats and hence make most efficient use of a resource. Part of it is to maximize the resource (i.e. monetary) yield from the customers.
It is the oldest pitch in the book, a customer walks on to a used car lot and the salesman asks "So, how much are you willing to spend?" I have a level of car that I want, an amount I am hoping to spend on it, and I'll be darned if I tip my hand with respect to a negotiation on the final price this early in the process, thank-you-very-much. Or better yet, don't buy a used car except from someone you know, but maybe not from someone you know too well as there will be bad blood if things go bad.
Why do people joke about used car salesman? Because there is considerable "asymmetry in information" between buyer and seller and the uneasy feeling that however savy you are about cars, you will be taken for a mark and perhaps pay hundreds or thousands of dollars more than another customer. Why are people (like the parent poster) so exercised about "yield management"? Yes, yes, buy your tickets ahead, be flexible in your travel times, blah, blah, but the feeling is that you are getting fleeced.
I am perfectly comfortable with the idea that you get to pay less for day-old bread, for travel at inconvenient times or booking well in advance, and so on. But the purchase of transportation of all kinds increasingly has the feel of participating in a con. Frequent flyer awards used to be useful to attend funerals for friends where you didn't qualify for the "bereavement fares", but now those things have restrictions -- Oh, you want to travel, then? That will require twice as many points. There is this feel that they are making up the rules as they go along.
If GM "killed the electric car", what am I doing standing next to an EV-1, a half a block from the WSOR tracks?
CSSHEGEWISCH Sam1: Wouldn't it be fairer to means test discounts for seniors or other needy classes of travelers as opposed to granting them just because some has passes an arbitrary age mark? I agree that means testing would appear to be fairer but consistent implementation would be difficult at best and a public relations nightmare.
Sam1: Wouldn't it be fairer to means test discounts for seniors or other needy classes of travelers as opposed to granting them just because some has passes an arbitrary age mark?
Wouldn't it be fairer to means test discounts for seniors or other needy classes of travelers as opposed to granting them just because some has passes an arbitrary age mark?
I agree that means testing would appear to be fairer but consistent implementation would be difficult at best and a public relations nightmare.
Gadzooks! (and I mean that in it's least political form) We'd find out Warren Buffet pays less for his Amtrak ticket than his secretary!
I went to a doctor once who charged based on income level. You had to show a tax return to be seen. It felt a little like getting naked before trip to the examining room....
No, thanks.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
I don't think to ask since for most places I don't yet qualify yet but being a thinning Grey Hair some places give me the discount assuming I qualify. Some I'm sure just do it to get a better tip and you know what they tend to be right if they do a great job as I will factor those savings back into their pocket as well as mine...
Darren (BLHS & CRRM Lifetime Member)
Delaware and Hudson Virtual Museum (DHVM), Railroad Adventures (RRAdventures)
My Blog
Sam1 I am 72. That makes me a senior and makes me eligible for senior discounts on Amtrak, ... Granting them a discount just because they have white hair, if they have any hair, shifts the cost burden onto young people.
I am 72. That makes me a senior and makes me eligible for senior discounts on Amtrak, ... Granting them a discount just because they have white hair, if they have any hair, shifts the cost burden onto young people.
With yield management it's the last minute travelers who pay the extra since so many more tickets will already have been scooped up by seniors. Now if I could just remember to ask for the senior discount.
Means testing is interesting...but it would lead to a class system and we all know the United States is a classless society. Giving each person a different card based on income and assets won't fly in this country. Even AARP is based on the fact that everybody over 50 is in the same boat. By and large, a great many more are going to have a lot less in the future if politically based threats about SS and Meidicare and Medicaid continue. Realisitcally, the older we get there are more who need the discount(s) than don't. But the discounts also work as a marketing tool to encourage travel and increase spending stayhing in hotels and eating in restaurants...And don't forget the (grand)kid factor, that the offspring and the offspring of offspring just might be along for the ride, which is a positive.
Sam1 Wouldn't it be fairer to means test discounts for seniors or other needy classes of travelers as opposed to granting them just because some has passes an arbitrary age mark?
That is a good arguement for more than just train fares, Sam 1, and I tend to agree. I'm not so lucky nor are many I do know. The low commuter district fares in the NYC and Philadelphia area, along with NJT's interline fares, allow for me and my ridewithmehenry group(s) to enjoy many and long days riding trains instead of just sitting at home thinking about them or playing like this on the internet. I've got one day coming up of almost 10 hours of train riding, two NJT lines, electric and diesel push pulls, EMU option, two states, rural, suburban, urban surroundings, historical lines dating back to the 1840s and services and equipment as contemporary as you can get: OFF (Old Fart Fare): $8. Plus food and gas. Can't bowl for that, can't do a round of golf. But can see and do a lot of railroading; and often,too. Thank goodness for the Sr. fares or else our wives would have killed us off long ago!
We did travel from Boston to LA. Most routes run fron Rensellar NY to CHO. The on to Denver to Fallstaff to LA or there abouts.
The trip without delays should be lat least 4 days.
I'm 57 and already get seniors discounts on a lot of fares anymore...and like Sam1 I've been pretty lucky to have the $$$ with which to do this...we're looking at a July/August timeline for a trip to LA via Chicago from NYC if we can figure that out...
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
henry6 Actually time related fares have been eliminated on NJT: full fare is in effect at all times, round trip being the same as double one way on NJT. MNRR and LIRR both have peak and off peak fares. All have discounts for commuting. And there are senior discounts of up to 60%, too (62+ NJT, 65+ MNRR, LIRR). Amtrak has demand fares which may or may not be equal in both directions plus a senior discount for those over 65 of 15%. SEPTA has a 65+ fare of $1on trains and free on subways and light rail with presentation of SSMedicare cards.
Actually time related fares have been eliminated on NJT: full fare is in effect at all times, round trip being the same as double one way on NJT. MNRR and LIRR both have peak and off peak fares. All have discounts for commuting. And there are senior discounts of up to 60%, too (62+ NJT, 65+ MNRR, LIRR). Amtrak has demand fares which may or may not be equal in both directions plus a senior discount for those over 65 of 15%. SEPTA has a 65+ fare of $1on trains and free on subways and light rail with presentation of SSMedicare cards.
I am 72. That makes me a senior and makes me eligible for senior discounts on Amtrak, Southwest, etc. Yet, thanks to a deferred salary plan, plus a wise (lucky) investment program, I have more income today than at any time in my life. And I am not alone. Whilst 20 to 30 per cent of seniors are strapped, many others have substantial income. Granting them a discount just because they have white hair, if they have any hair, shifts the cost burden onto young people.
Many of the people who participate in these forums appear to be seniors. Moreover, from their accounts, many of them appear to be able to afford to travel first class, whether by Amtrak or any other commercial mode of transport.
Wouldn't it be fairer to means test discounts for seniors and/or other needy classes of travelers as opposed to granting them just because someone has passes an arbitrary age mark?
I've also seen that the various New York area transit agencies also have both peak and off-peak fares with the timetables indicating the trains on which off-peak fares are not applicable. Also, Megabus, which is a regional discount bus operator famous for its $1.00 fares, varies its fares depending on when you buy your ticket and which trip you are riding.
Dakguy201 For the shorter runs, I think time of day might be a factor as well. Recently, I traveled from Washington to Baltimore in the morning and returned in the afternoon. Both fares were purchased on a walk-up basis and both coaches appeared 2/3's full. However, one fare was nearly 40% more than the other.
For the shorter runs, I think time of day might be a factor as well. Recently, I traveled from Washington to Baltimore in the morning and returned in the afternoon. Both fares were purchased on a walk-up basis and both coaches appeared 2/3's full. However, one fare was nearly 40% more than the other.
The price you pay can differ throughout the day, week, month, and year. I too have experienced significant swings during the day in the Northeast corridor as well as the southern California corridor. Also, I have taken trips on the Empire Builder during the first week of December, which is after the heavy Thanksgiving travel period and before the heavy Christmas travel season, for half of what it would have cost to take the same trip during the summer season.
As a rule, the further ahead one makes an booking on Amtrak, the better the price. For example, the fare from Miami to New York City on September 19th is $135 plus $372 for a roomette or a total of $507. Two weeks from today the fare would be $176 plus $529 for the roomette or a total of $705.
A room at the Roosevelt hotel for September 20th would be $299 plus taxes. The one way airfare from Miami to New York on September 19th would be $110. The total cost would be $409 plus taxes. The first class ticket on Amtrak would include meals, but the meal(s) bought between destinations whilst traveling by air would be minimal.
The Roosevelt hotel is located in the heart of Manhattan. It is a very nice hotel. With estimated taxes of 20 per cent, the cost of a room would be $358, which is less than the cost of the roomette on the train. I'll take a night in the Roosevelt over a night in a roomette or bedroom, which is even pricier, any night of the year. As I noted in a previous post, my days of overnight on Amtrak are over. I'll fly to my long distance destination and use the train for relatively short trips between my destination and other cities that I may want to visit, i.e. New York to Philadelphia, New York to Hartford, etc.
An interesting question is how Amtrak sets the base prices that subsequently move up or down depending on demand. I suspect they use regression analysis to plot historical prices and project future demand, but I am not sure.
Amtrak loses approximately $1.3 billion a year on operations. It is under significant pressure to capture as many dollars as it can through the fare box. Doing so is good marketing and good business. It is not gouging. It is called whatever the traffic will bear.
Brother, you have my sympathy, It happens all the time. I believe it's called something like "yield management" and this wonderful practice was brought to us by the airlines a number of years before Amtrak introduced it.
If you think the rail fares are subject to fluctuation (and they are), you ought to see what happens to the prices of roomettes and bedrooms. I think that in some cases, as the departure nears some rates actually fall, but this isn't sure and predictable. This makes long-range travel planning much more important, in order to get the lowest price, something which is not convenient for everyone all the time.
This form of pricing makes many people feel gouged and angry, I fondly recall that a ticket price once was what they said it would be, not, "fares from $xxx." Before 1970, a plane ride to Chicago from Cleveland was $40 one way, $80 round trip. No matter which airline you called, or which time of year or day you were traveling, it was $40. Period. This was a great help in planning travel. Amtrak was the same way until this program was introduced. The airlines at that time offered the traveling public a high level of service, paid their employees well, and paid dividends on their stock.
Of course, the god some call "Deregulation" changed all of that and we must now worship at that altar. So we have unpredictable prices, charges for certain seats, bags, and food, and we must navigate a ticket service or two to shop for cheap fares. A whole industry has grown up around this. By the way, ever read the Q/A section in the Sunday paper Travel section and read about people trying to deal with these ticket "services"? A tale of woe each week.
Just like we can't do our own taxes any longer, and have to pay an industry that's grown up to serve that need, this is one of the realities of life in America today. Like Whack-a-Mole, we try one method of solving a problem, only to find out another one has popped up as a result.
However, I can't help noting, mbtacommuter, that the Bolt Bus is taking people between Boston & New York, and likely elsewhere, for ridiculously low fares. Amtrak has got to know this and see it reflected in their rider counts.
Let's bring out the bean counters at this point and ask, what is the real cost of moving people between Boston & New York? (Vicious debate follows here)
In the meantime, mbtacommuter, I sympathize. You can cry on my shoulder and I'll buy you a beer. But the toothpaste ain't gonna go back in the tube.
That is normal in the transportation industry. Go to your favorite airline's web site. Price a ticket for travel 35 days from now. Then price the same ticket for travel this afternoon.
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
Not strange at all...it is the way airlines have been doing business for decades....and it has been very successful for Amtrak for the last several years.
On May 2, 2012, I checked fare prices for the Boston to New York on May 12, 2012 for train Day.
At that time, May 2, 2012, the one way fare was $69.00. On Friday, may 4, 2012, I was going to make reservations for round trip Boston/Penn Station/Boston. To my surprise, the Fare from Boston increased to $98.00, Boston.New York Penn Sta. and the fare from New York Penn sta. to Boston, went from $98.00 to $118.00.
I called Amtrak, and was told the following by the Amtrak agent. "As any specific scheduled train nears sold out status, the price increases as needed to prevent a sold out train. In the case, 2 price increases. That makes the round trip, Boston/New York/Boston increase to $216.00.
With Amtrak fighting government funding cuts, and promoting travel by train, the increase prices without notice to discourage people from useing Amtrak.
Strange way of doing business.
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