beaulieu blue streak 1 18. A fly in the ointment may be CSX. They might raise stiff opposition because FEC might initiate freight service from JAX (NS connection ) to Orlando ( FCEN, SF ) then on to Tampa ?? Going from Jacksonville to Orlando via Cocoa, FL and thence to Tampa doesn't make sense.
blue streak 1 18. A fly in the ointment may be CSX. They might raise stiff opposition because FEC might initiate freight service from JAX (NS connection ) to Orlando ( FCEN, SF ) then on to Tampa ??
18. A fly in the ointment may be CSX. They might raise stiff opposition because FEC might initiate freight service from JAX (NS connection ) to Orlando ( FCEN, SF ) then on to Tampa ??
Going from Jacksonville to Orlando via Cocoa, FL and thence to Tampa doesn't make sense.
No it doesn't make sense, but the motivation may be the freight railroads' opinion of passenger services.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
blue streak 1 b. I would expect that some intermediate stations will eventually be built but only after very thorough ridership studies. Oh will the politicians rant that don't get a station.
b. I would expect that some intermediate stations will eventually be built but only after very thorough ridership studies. Oh will the politicians rant that don't get a station.
Let them rant, more stations will increase the travel time to the stations that FEC wants to serve, reducing the value of the service to the real customers and taking up long-haul seats better utilized to more distant destinations.
17. Planned Speeds 79 MPH to FLL or W PBI almost sounds like cab signals not in use ? 110 MPH to Cocoa. Will need grade crossiing mirtigations. As slow as FRA has been to approve 110 MPH in michigan that may be a problem for FEC.?? 125 to Orlando. Grade separated will run as well as NEC.
Too many grade crossings on this segment, most of which will never be able to be grade separated.
D.
I presume you are talking about RRIF. If so, the answer is yes the FRA reaches into the US Treasury to loan the money at the same cost that the Government is paying of debt of the same maturity. There is a risk premium that the FRA takes off the top. This appears to be similar to points on a home mortgage.
Mac McCulloch
MidlandMike Since I understood they might be seeking FRA loans, I presumed this would involve "public money". Also, wasn't Amtrak studying JAX-MIA service via FEC?
Since I understood they might be seeking FRA loans, I presumed this would involve "public money". Also, wasn't Amtrak studying JAX-MIA service via FEC?
Good question. I believe the FRA doesn't actually reach into the public trough and pull up a bucket of dollars but rather underwrites the loan from an actual financial house or houses. I'll leave that to someone who has been through that process.
As for possible NRPC service between JAX and MIA, I did ask the FECI rep and his response was "It's up to them [Amtrak]." The Orlando to Miami service has nothing to do with the interstate network and is only on their radar to the extent that there is some occasional discussion.
Editor Emeritus, This Week at Amtrak
D.Carleton MidlandMike Since they would only be re-tracking the former FEC 2nd track over existing subgrade and bridges, couldn't they request a FONSI (Finding of No Significant Impact) ahead of a full blown EIS for that part of the project. If they use private funds with no strings attached then they could do whatever they want as "interstate commerce." It's the public money that comes with strings.
MidlandMike Since they would only be re-tracking the former FEC 2nd track over existing subgrade and bridges, couldn't they request a FONSI (Finding of No Significant Impact) ahead of a full blown EIS for that part of the project.
Since they would only be re-tracking the former FEC 2nd track over existing subgrade and bridges, couldn't they request a FONSI (Finding of No Significant Impact) ahead of a full blown EIS for that part of the project.
The real acknowledgement that this is going ahead in no particular order is -----
1. financing
a. selling bonds, stock etc
b. getting possible FRA gants ( may be highly probable )
c. state grants ?
2. acquisition
a. cwr rail
b. ties
c. switch machines
d. signaling equipment ( may be hard to get with all the PTC eequipment needs ? )
3. Contracts signed for ROW
a. Toll way authority
b. ORL airport athority
4. rolling stock.
a. order 125 mph capable locos
b. order new passenger cars and/or -----
c. acquire heritage passenger cars ?
A. rehab and/or refurbish
B. certify heritage cars for 125 mph running
5. start double tracking MIA - Cocoa ( this can have benefits even before passenger service starts + this will free up construction crews for the Cocoa - ORL track when that ROW acquired.
6. build stations needed MIA - Cocoa
7. build or get Orlando airport to build station at ORL airport.
8. Get FRA operational approval
The federal authority that they wish to avoid is the STB authority on whether there is a need for this service, not FRA requirements.
Dakguy201 Something that was said in Newswire regarding one of the proposed projects in Florida left me puzzled: The filing stipulates the new passenger service will not be a part of the interstate passenger rail network and should be exempt from federal oversight. All Aboard Florida will not participate in any through ticketing program with Amtrak. It also says no freight service will be operated by All Aboard Florida, or over the new right-of-way to Orlando. It does say that, for flexibility in operations, FEC dispatchers will have the option of using either track on the shared right-of-way for freight and passenger traffic. I fail to understand why this proposed operation would be exempt from federal oversight. Obviously it is intended this railroad be connected to the FEC at several points in order to enable that operating flexibility described, but I was under the impression that if you had as little as one switch that connected your railroad to the national system you are subject to the full range of federal regulations. Can someone describe the loophole that this group intends to exploit?
Something that was said in Newswire regarding one of the proposed projects in Florida left me puzzled:
The filing stipulates the new passenger service will not be a part of the interstate passenger rail network and should be exempt from federal oversight. All Aboard Florida will not participate in any through ticketing program with Amtrak. It also says no freight service will be operated by All Aboard Florida, or over the new right-of-way to Orlando. It does say that, for flexibility in operations, FEC dispatchers will have the option of using either track on the shared right-of-way for freight and passenger traffic.
I fail to understand why this proposed operation would be exempt from federal oversight. Obviously it is intended this railroad be connected to the FEC at several points in order to enable that operating flexibility described, but I was under the impression that if you had as little as one switch that connected your railroad to the national system you are subject to the full range of federal regulations. Can someone describe the loophole that this group intends to exploit?
And, WHY? What federal railroad oversight is so onerous? Presumably any safety and non-discrimination obligations will apply regardless (as well they should).
So, why take such a huge step against intermodal interconnectibilty?
This seems like railroad history repeating itself. Much of the benefit of railroads has been with real estate development along the line along with government subsidies for building. Often railroader insiders brought up land in advance making their personal fortune from land speculation . But if we have learned anything at all to the entent that the taxpayers of Florida and the United States put up money for this line they should benefit from increasing land prices.
As an update, we had a representative from FECI (not FEC proper) at this year's Passenger Trains on Freight Railroads conference. The expectation is that the passenger trains will carry themselves financially. The real money is in real estate development; Henry Flagler would be so proud. The Orlando terminal will be at a yet-to-be-built southern gate complex at Orlando International Airport. This would afford connections with the already established modes and eventually SunRail. The speeds between Orlando and Cocoa may be 125 mph, Cocoa to West Palm Beach 110 mph and West Palm to Miami 79 mph.
With all due respect to the Trains News Wire it should be noted that no one involved with this project describes it as "High-Speed." The HSR canard is the purview of our indolent national press and has no place in serious discussion.
Wondering if FEC isn't also interested in starting up Tampa to Jacksonville Intermodal? Seems to me that might be profitable if they get the bigger Container ships through the Canal.
Today's Newswire article on the Miami-Orlando proposed service fills in some details.
1. Since they will use FEC ROW and lease Florida Highway ROW they do not need to purchase real estate.
2. FRA loans may help with track construction financing.
3. Rolling stock should be relatively easy to finance since it can be repossessed and resold.
If they don't break even, Florida (with it's terminally congested highways) might even look at subsidies or purchase.
Some details revealed today have helped flesh out requirements.
15. Double track from MIA - Cocoa trackage before was 2 track right hand current of traffic..
a. since all subgrade is still in place only vegetation removal should be rather easy.
b. All bridges that were single tracked were kept for a 2nd track.
c. I believe that FEC when they single tracked made their sidings at least 10,000 ft about 10 mile spaciing.
d. There is more trackage FLL south that is double track ?
e. There would be somewhat less than 150 miles of new tracks to be placed. that would probably iinclued some locations needing a third track.
f. Maybe some one has an idea of total cost per mile of installing 150 miles of track ? Mudchicken ?
g. Turnouts -- 3 per location tying in to present sidings.
h. Signals i.
16. FEC until the strike was a passenger carrier first then freight.
a. Tourists now must be an order of magniture more than in the early 1960s .
19 If Orlando station near on at Orlando airporrt route will to cross the CSX Stanton (?) power station spur ( coal trains that are often parked on spur ). Most likely a flyover.
...read Fred Frailey's latest blog. The plan is real, and is being pushed by a guy who knows what!
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
BTW remember that the FEC is already equipped with a Cab Signalling system that meets FRA requirements for PTC Mandate.
Where will they get passenger cars ? any Heritage cars are not qualified to run speeds contemplated ? Would need Amtrak type trucks and then need qualification tests to verify speed. Any 3 axel trucks ??
blue streak 1 DwightBranch: . What you are suggesting is not "high speed rail", certainly not a dedicated right of way for most of the way as the Orlando-Tampa proposal had. I see no benefit in building tracks down the middle of the 528 (which isn't as wide as I-4, I live a few miles from the 528) to Cocoa for diesel powered trains and then dodging aggregate trains from there to Miami. The HSR proposals I have seen had a dedicated, electrified right of way running along the turnpike from the east side of town. that At no time have I suggested this is HSR. I did refer to the possible use of the FL HSR ROW that is just sitting there. IMHO HSR for the 240 miles is not a good investment. The proposal said 3 hrs which is an average of 80 MPH. That concurrs with the HrSR CHI - STL portions that are being rebuilt for 110 MPH. NEW locos are being specified for 125 MPH which could be easily atained Orlando - Cocoa. Rest to route 100 - 110. Article also noted limited stops MIA: FLL; West Palm: Orlando. Maybe other trains more stops and longer times ; releases always gill the lily with best possible times ?? But Orlando - MIA 3 hrs vs Amtrak's 6 hours + is definitely a crowd pleaser. Certainly allows morning in Orlando and train to FLL / MIA and catch a cruise ship. Who knows Disney might bundle ?? Again the problem of easy access by public to ROW Cocoa - MIA will need addressing. Electrification?? No way for a few years due to expense.
DwightBranch: . What you are suggesting is not "high speed rail", certainly not a dedicated right of way for most of the way as the Orlando-Tampa proposal had. I see no benefit in building tracks down the middle of the 528 (which isn't as wide as I-4, I live a few miles from the 528) to Cocoa for diesel powered trains and then dodging aggregate trains from there to Miami. The HSR proposals I have seen had a dedicated, electrified right of way running along the turnpike from the east side of town.
What you are suggesting is not "high speed rail", certainly not a dedicated right of way for most of the way as the Orlando-Tampa proposal had. I see no benefit in building tracks down the middle of the 528 (which isn't as wide as I-4, I live a few miles from the 528) to Cocoa for diesel powered trains and then dodging aggregate trains from there to Miami. The HSR proposals I have seen had a dedicated, electrified right of way running along the turnpike from the east side of town.
that
At no time have I suggested this is HSR. I did refer to the possible use of the FL HSR ROW that is just sitting there. IMHO HSR for the 240 miles is not a good investment. The proposal said 3 hrs which is an average of 80 MPH. That concurrs with the HrSR CHI - STL portions that are being rebuilt for 110 MPH. NEW locos are being specified for 125 MPH which could be easily atained Orlando - Cocoa. Rest to route 100 - 110. Article also noted limited stops MIA: FLL; West Palm: Orlando. Maybe other trains more stops and longer times ; releases always gill the lily with best possible times ?? But Orlando - MIA 3 hrs vs Amtrak's 6 hours + is definitely a crowd pleaser. Certainly allows morning in Orlando and train to FLL / MIA and catch a cruise ship. Who knows Disney might bundle ??
Again the problem of easy access by public to ROW Cocoa - MIA will need addressing. Electrification?? No way for a few years due to expense.
It will be a tough sale here if we (the taxpayers) are expected to pay for it, it would be better to rebuild the CSX route I think, it is shorter and wouldn only miss Cocoa as far as population areas. The only advantage I can see of the 528 is it would pass closer to UCF (on the east side of town) but even at that it would still be five miles away.
blue streak 1 1. The FEC RR and FECi web sites do not have anything as of 1430 today Thursday. It may be the WSJ scooped or maybe got misled. 5. How does FECi go about raising $1.0 Billion ?? 7. Of course details are sketchy but what max speed does FEC want to operate ? The faster the trains go over 79 MPH the more track structure is required. Am assuming freight moving at FEC freight 70 MPH and Passenger trains faster but having to make station stops. A real study for Railplanner ? 12. Downtown MIA station location is also a problem as I believe old station location not available ? It could be that a new station could located on the island where cruise ships dock as that track connection is or has been restored.??
1. The FEC RR and FECi web sites do not have anything as of 1430 today Thursday. It may be the WSJ scooped or maybe got misled.
5. How does FECi go about raising $1.0 Billion ??
7. Of course details are sketchy but what max speed does FEC want to operate ? The faster the trains go over 79 MPH the more track structure is required. Am assuming freight moving at FEC freight 70 MPH and Passenger trains faster but having to make station stops. A real study for Railplanner ?
12. Downtown MIA station location is also a problem as I believe old station location not available ? It could be that a new station could located on the island where cruise ships dock as that track connection is or has been restored.??
1. Try http://www.allaboardflorida.com/ for their website. Very sketchy on the details, but I expect that is an intentional strategy on their part to build public and political support. For a simplified map of their proposed routes: http://www.allaboardflorida.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/All-Aboard-Florida-Infographic.jpg
Where the route would go in Orlando is not stated, but the map suggest Orlando Airport? Would they go to downtown Miami on the FEC or cross over to Tri-Rail and the new Miami airport intermodal station? Or both? Have to wait and see.
Even if there is a lot of PE on a Orlando to Cocoa route, that is a long way from Tier II EIS, agreements, ROW acquisition, final design, and construction. My bet is the 2014 date is for Miami to Cocoa service, but they are not stating that so as to drum up more public attention. Then Miami to Jacksonville, while building the 40 mile Orlando extension if they succeed in getting that far.
5. $1 billion is not that hard to raise if they can back up the projected revenue. They may be planning to get a RRIF loan for much of the $1 billion or in addition to $1 billion of private money.
7. Since the Florida plan for the FEC was for 90 mph operation, their plan is likely 90 mph speeds. Improving grade crossings may add to their costs.
DwightBranch. What you are suggesting is not "high speed rail", certainly not a dedicated right of way for most of the way as the Orlando-Tampa proposal had. I see no benefit in building tracks down the middle of the 528 (which isn't as wide as I-4, I live a few miles from the 528) to Cocoa for diesel powered trains and then dodging aggregate trains from there to Miami. The HSR proposals I have seen had a dedicated, electrified right of way running along the turnpike from the east side of town.
blue streak 1 This is an interesting proposal. 2. Much preliminary engineering work for the Florida HSR has been completed of the 528 tollway from Orlando airport to Cocoa, Fl. Since the tollway authority may own all the proposed ROW enviromental reviews may be minimual especially if the FRA / DOT will speed up that item. The 528 goes about 1-2/10 miles north of the airport terminal that had provisions for a rail station as part of the original FL HSR.. At Cocoa the 528 actually crosses over the FEC so only a connection ROW might be needed.from 528 to FEC RR. The 528 tollway is owned by florida tollway authority so ROW costs may be just from 1 entity.
This is an interesting proposal.
2. Much preliminary engineering work for the Florida HSR has been completed of the 528 tollway from Orlando airport to Cocoa, Fl. Since the tollway authority may own all the proposed ROW enviromental reviews may be minimual especially if the FRA / DOT will speed up that item. The 528 goes about 1-2/10 miles north of the airport terminal that had provisions for a rail station as part of the original FL HSR.. At Cocoa the 528 actually crosses over the FEC so only a connection ROW might be needed.from 528 to FEC RR. The 528 tollway is owned by florida tollway authority so ROW costs may be just from 1 entity.
3. The same problem of downtown Orlando to the airport as FLA HSR had rears its ugly head.
4. What will the Florida governor do ?? That can be a real political problem for him or will he let his nose get bloody again ?? Or could he have connections to FECi ??
6. IMHO this route has a much higher passenger potential than Orlando Tampa. .
8. PTC will be a factor but the FRA ability to postpone up to 2020 may be a plus.
9. Stations along the east coast are just about non existent but the mild weather would allow a small building with quick trak ticket machines. Platforms should be built long or at least planned for extensions so large loads of passengers can be carried on one train because too many passenger trains could clog the FEC route that is essentially single track CTC. The FEC ROW was once all 2 track current of traffic so extra siding and double track can be installed.
10. Where in the world will FEC get locomotives and more importantly passenger cars ? Isn't most of the car builders filled up thru 2014?
11. Florida DOT might be willing to build some road flyovers Cocoa - MIA
13. What effect on TRI-RAIL expansion plans to Stuart ?
14. If service is started the non-union status of FEC might enable for contract train service company and / or employees ?
DwightBranch D.Carleton: In brief, the Florida East Coast Railway intends to operate passenger trains between Orlando and South Florida starting in 2014. Full story: http://www.marketwatch.com/story/florida-east-coast-industries-inc-announces-plans-for-private-passenger-rail-service-in-florida-2012-03-22 I live in Orlando, this has been tried before, most recently the "Florida Fun Train," which was owned by now-bankrupt Colorado Rail Car as I recall and used equipment similar to what they use in Alaska for cruise ship passengers. I am not quite sure why Rail America/FEC thinks they can make a better go of it (on CSX track) nor why it would cost a billion dollars, unless they are planning to build across the swamps between here and the East Coast. Amtrak has a service between here and Miami that is quite popular, and there just doesn't seem to be a market for an upmarket version.
D.Carleton: In brief, the Florida East Coast Railway intends to operate passenger trains between Orlando and South Florida starting in 2014. Full story: http://www.marketwatch.com/story/florida-east-coast-industries-inc-announces-plans-for-private-passenger-rail-service-in-florida-2012-03-22
In brief, the Florida East Coast Railway intends to operate passenger trains between Orlando and South Florida starting in 2014.
Full story: http://www.marketwatch.com/story/florida-east-coast-industries-inc-announces-plans-for-private-passenger-rail-service-in-florida-2012-03-22
I live in Orlando, this has been tried before, most recently the "Florida Fun Train," which was owned by now-bankrupt Colorado Rail Car as I recall and used equipment similar to what they use in Alaska for cruise ship passengers. I am not quite sure why Rail America/FEC thinks they can make a better go of it (on CSX track) nor why it would cost a billion dollars, unless they are planning to build across the swamps between here and the East Coast. Amtrak has a service between here and Miami that is quite popular, and there just doesn't seem to be a market for an upmarket version.
A few thoughts.
Florida Fun Train wasn't really corridor service like FEC seems to be contemplating. It was a single round trip run under Amtrak's rights. This sounds like multiple round trips per day.
I wonder why Amtrak has not tried to implement corridor service in FL after all these years. ...or even pitched it to the state to see if they could snag some subsidy. (Actually, I don't wonder.)
This only works if people have a decent way of getting from train to resorts and between resorts in Orlando w/o renting a car. If you need a car, might as well drive...
I can't see this coming anywhere close to being able to fund 40 miles of new road. If they can get the state to pay for that, and perhaps the equipment (or they could pick up "scrap" Amfleet as it becomes available), then maybe they have a shot at covering variable costs of operating the train (with some change to pocket)
I agree with that it'll take a LOOONG time to get route and permits for new road.
Could this be related to something else FEC wants or needs?
Is my calendar 10 days slow?
D.Carleton In brief, the Florida East Coast Railway intends to operate passenger trains between Orlando and South Florida starting in 2014. Full story: http://www.marketwatch.com/story/florida-east-coast-industries-inc-announces-plans-for-private-passenger-rail-service-in-florida-2012-03-22
Doubt that they will get the environmental permits for the construction of their 40 mile extension until 2020.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
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