I found one place where it may have referred to a parlor car and not a coach. That is in Fred Westing's excellent book Apex of the Atlantics, discussing the development of the PRR E-6 Atlantic and its applicaton and longevity. (Kalmbach, probablyi out of print) He excepts Frank Stefeee's Railroad Magazine column on a trip on the Detroit Arrow from Frt Wayne to Chicago, with speeds in the 80's and 90's. He refers to a five car consist, coach-baggage combine, coach, "cchair car," diner, and observation. Possibly this once he means a parlor car. It was 1939 article quoted, with the train at the time. Anyone have an answer?
Seems if "chair car" was a marketing term used at the whim of any given railroad at any time and could be or was whatever the railroad wanted it to be.
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KCSfan The Illinois Central at one time designated cars with walk-over, non-reclining seats as coaches and those with individual reclining seats as chair cars. I suspect this distinction was used by many other roads as well. Both had four across seating as opposed to parlor cars which had two across individual chair seating. For example, the equipment section of the OG for the 1937 Chicago - St. Louis Daylight listed the following consist: Library-Lounge Car, Observation Car, Diner, Parlor Car, Chair Car and Coaches. In the post WW2 period as modern (or modernized) equipment with incividual reclining seats became the norm, the term chair car fell into disuse and these cars were simply designated as coaches. AFAIK parlor cars (which required a first class ticket) were never designated as chair cars. Mark
The Illinois Central at one time designated cars with walk-over, non-reclining seats as coaches and those with individual reclining seats as chair cars. I suspect this distinction was used by many other roads as well. Both had four across seating as opposed to parlor cars which had two across individual chair seating. For example, the equipment section of the OG for the 1937 Chicago - St. Louis Daylight listed the following consist: Library-Lounge Car, Observation Car, Diner, Parlor Car, Chair Car and Coaches.
In the post WW2 period as modern (or modernized) equipment with incividual reclining seats became the norm, the term chair car fell into disuse and these cars were simply designated as coaches. AFAIK parlor cars (which required a first class ticket) were never designated as chair cars.
Mark
20 years later, a public IC TT uses the terms "coaches" on all trains. On the streamlined and better trains such as the City of NO, City of Miami, Green Diamond, Daylight, Land O'Corn and Seminole, the term "Coaches - Deluxe Reclining Seats" is used, as opposed to "coaches" on non-streamlined trains like the Creole, Louisiane, Southern Express, Night Diamond, Chickasaw and Hawkeye. Parlor cars are found on the Panama, Daylight and Green Diamond only.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
The CB&Q used the term "chair cars" instead of "coach" on all their passenger trains, with no distinction between shorter trains like the Morning and Afternoon Zephyrs or the Blackhawk, and the longer distance trains such as the DZ, CZ, KCZ, AZ or TZ. The NP used the term "chair coach" on through trains and "coach" on locals. GN used the term "coach" on all trains.
The CB&Q promoted both Coaches and Chair Cars, the former were found in the shorter distance trains such as the Twin Zephyrs while chair cars were advertized in Denver Zephyr and California Zephyr. The Denver Zephyr also carried Parlor seating and a Parlor Drawing Room on an overnight train. Parlor seats were sold eastbound between Denver and Omaha and westbound between Chicago and Omaha.
The NP Mainstreeter sold Parlor seating in the daytime areas of its schedule as it crossed from Seattle to St. Paul. The parlor seats were used as additional lounge seats for the sleeping car passengers at night. Since the Lounge occupied half the car and the parlor seating the other half. I personally never witnessed more than six or seven parlor passengers on the train and the parlor seats were occupied most of the time by sleeping car passengers. The cars were named Holiday Lounge cars on the NP and they also operated a couple of identical cars in the Seattle Portland pool trains.
I never heard the term Chair cars used on Canadian trains from the latter 1960's through early eighties and rode most . I was a frequent traveller between Toronto - Montreal when the Rapido's first entered service and introduced the Parlor cars with paired seats on one side of the aisle and single seat on the other. These cars had formally had the single swivel seats on either side of the center aisle. Part of the rebuilding included a galley that served airline style meals at the Club car seats as CN promoted the rebuilt cars. Cara was the caterer that prepared the meals and was the same firm that prepared Air Canada's in flight meals at the time. In any case they were excellent for the most part. This same service carried over to the Turbo trains except I never traveled anywhere but in the Turbo Club dome which featured single swivel seats. It was an excellent way to travel.
Al - in - Stockton
BaltACD Rotatable single seat 'chairs' constitute a Parlor Car seating.
Rotatable single seat 'chairs' constitute a Parlor Car seating.
True, but I suspect that Dakguy201 had his tongue in his cheek when posting that. Kind of what I would think is a "proper" chair car as well...
- Erik
Again, before the Amtrak era, at least, the term chair car was only used by railroads to define a coach that was more comfortable than a run-of-the-mill coach. The C&O used the term, and the coaches were air-conditioned and had reclining seats. Parlor cars were parlor cars, whether Pullman or railroad operated. I think the AT&SF may have used the term, but later, lightweight, streamlined, air-conditioned, reclining-seat-equipped was enough and the term was dropped. I don't believe the New Haven, PRR, RF&P, ACL, or SAL ever used the term. Or the NYCentral.
Dakguy201 This is my idea of a proper chair car: The Skytop Dome belonging to the "Friends of 261"!
This is my idea of a proper chair car:
The Skytop Dome belonging to the "Friends of 261"!
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Why does the forum put all those REs and quotes???
Was this car perhaps Wabash 1602 (built for Bluebird service), which had lounge seats under the dome?
Johnny
But those are still individual parlor chairs.
Look again...the car has parlor turn seats but also in the lower front there are chairs against the outer wall. I think the terms were different from railroad to railroad or that parlor was a Pullman term that some roads perferred not to use so as not to be confused with Pullman service.
On the New Haven, "The Yankee Clipper", 1PM to New York was all Parlor Car train. Each car was named for a Clipper Ship and had a painting of it hanging in the car.
Today, at least in my area, Flip-over Seats are used for Commuter Trains, Amtrak has slide out and spin seats. Amtrak Coach gets you a seat nearly as big as Airline First Class with foot rest and fold down table, Business Class has fewer seats per car and swing up leg rests, First Class cars have big wide seats, two on one side of the aisle and one on the other with free food.
Acela is Business and First Class only, seats MUST always face forward or, if facing backwards have a table between it and the other seat.
Don U. TCA 73-5735
It is certainly a parlor car and a pretty nice one. Not a chair car.
Looks more like a parlor car to me, complete with first-class fare plus seat charge.
Thank you all for your comments.
travelingengineerI agree with "henry6" regarding our need for more practical material, as opposed to vintage photos, et al., about early railroading. In the meantime, amongst my modest railroad library, I have several titles that provide some good pre-WWII information, in story form by trainmen, to wit: Chauncey Del French, RAILROADMAN (1938) and Frank P. Donovan, Jr. and Robert Selph Henry, editors, HEADLIGHTS AND MARKERS: AN ANTHOLOGY OF RAILROAD STORIES (1946). Good reads, both, from which some understandings can arise.
I'll second that. Pictures are available pretty easily, but the background material is much harder to find.
I do not recall any parlor cars or any cars requiring a First Class ticket called chair cars. Chair cars in my experience were simply coaches that the particular railroad wished to indicate were more comfortable than the usual straighit-back flip-seat coaches. Some railroads used the term, and lots did not, being content to note in timetables: "reclining seats, air-conditioned."
Often one read: "Regularly assigned cars are air-conditioned and equipped with reclining seats." However, in we cannot guarantee all cars on this train will meet this specification."
On Santa Fe, Chair Car and coach were interchangable AFAIK (any comment Diningcar?)
The term 'Chair' can mean different things on each railroad. The CB&Q listed their streamline coachs as 'chair' cars. And the dome-coaches were listed as dome-chair cars. These were not 'walk-over' seats. The entire two seat unit pulled away from the window and was rotated....
Jim
Modeling BNSF and Milwaukee Road in SW Wisconsin
Yeah, probably...first class as an operating term rather than a marketing term...long distance passenger trains or locals, just not commute. But nothing was standard...some locals had walkover seats and not swivel; some places probably wyed a whole train so that seats did not have to be reversed. etc.
henry6 First class coaches did not have walk over seats (the back of the seat flipping back and forth in place) but rather the seats swivel in place so that seats face forward all the time.
First class coaches did not have walk over seats (the back of the seat flipping back and forth in place) but rather the seats swivel in place so that seats face forward all the time.
"First class coaches." Do you mean coaches on long distance trains, probably streamined? Only Pullman and parlor car accommodations were first class, never coach, as far as I can recall.
First class coaches did not have walk over seats (the back of the seat flipping back and forth in place) but rather the seats swivel in place so that seats face forward all the time. Thus the need to "service" a train at the end of each run...time and labor consuming.
More fodder for need to get more from Kalmbach about what railroading was like before 1960!
According to the Southern Railway, the Tennessean and the Southerner, which were streamliners, had coaches; I do not think that at any time these trains carried cars with the walkover seats. Other trains did carry such cars at times when passenger traffic was heavy, or had one such car for people riding on passes, but the only description in the timetables for these was also "coaches."
And, many other roads called the coach class accommodations, even those on the streamliners, "coaches."
Some other roads called their coach class (non-first class) accomodations "chair cars". I expect that the combination car actually had both reclining (and, perhaps, revolving) seats and the seats with no reclining ability (it was much easier to reverse the direction on these seats than it was to do so on the seats that could be reclined).
A Parlor Observation was a parlor car with services...chairs and sofa seating. A chair car had just chairs...not seats...and maybe no services or it was a colloquilism. But coach denotes a seat as described; I used couch to describe side by side seating on one piece of furniture. A chair car or parlor car were plush, usually one person chairs or two person sofa's, with lots of leg room to stretch out. Again, railorading, and rail riding, were quite different back then. And, just like today, reflected life styles of those to whom the service was marketed.
schlimm:
I don't think so, since the same consist info would also describe a parlor/observation car.
henry6:
This was part of my speculation, though "coach seats" do not automatically speak to me of "sorta like sofa's", since today "coach seats", whether on Amtrak or ailrlines, are generally chair-like one-seat-per-one-person affairs. And, even my limited pre-Amtrak US passenger rail experience was that "only one chair opposite another per aisle" was only found in parlor or observation car service, which (from the context) was not the distinction which was being described (since parlor cars were also in the same consist).
And, in any case, why both types of seating (in addition to a smoker and a parlor/observation car) in one train, such as Wabash's Banner Blue Limited ("The Finest Day Train in the World", according to the ad!)?
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