I was half-joking before; but the more I think of it, maybe new services to the Delmar Peninsula and Norfolk, VA could start from outside New York Penn Station. Hoboken may have limited space and terminal capacity to accept Amtrak. Similarly, Newark may have limited space and terminal capacity at Manhattan Transfer; but Exchange Place may have some space to restore terminal capacity and fill slots at Newark opened by diverging traffic out of Penn Station.
The few hundred Amtrak passengers on each train could be gathered from two PATH high capacity routes from Manhattan as well as Acela and Regional connections from east of New York City. The downside is cutting off potential new Long Island connections by introducing a short shuttle to Newark and taking up precious capacity on Amtrak and NJT out of Penn Station. Furthermore, PATH capacity is pretty tight as well even if travelers bound for Amtrak would be dispersed.
Has something like this been looked at? Any comments?
There would be no recapturing Exchange Pl, However, the area south of the Hoboken Terminal is open at the moment. And the Erie tunnels are not now in use (but being cleared and relaid?) The BLRT uses the old NYC/ERIE ROW along the foot of Bergen Hill, CSX and CSAO the rest of the remaining ROW's. The DL&W tunnels in heavy use by NJT and now leading only directly to NJT services, the WS/OW tunnel is used by BLRT and the ROW alongside PATH through Journal Sq. are the only viable cuts through the hill; the CNJ Newark Br and Main Line bridges were cut a long time ago and only a single track LV track traverses Newark Bay to JC. So, from the waterfront would be pretty tight under current conditions...not that it couldn't be done with enough money and political sway. But where there's a will there's a way...and so it is not entirely out of the question...just differently than you propose.
How much more development could be built upon The Meadows is a question, too. So lets turn to Staten Island and revive the SI-Brooklyn Tunnel story here (tie into the old LIRR Bay Ridge branch to Fresh Pond Jct and either the old Montauk to LIC or connect to the LIRR for NYP or GCT entry?
The growth pattern of NYC Metro has to be watched and planned from there...there is going to be a need for a lot more egress from the area westward for both people and off loaded ship cargo, so some planning has to be done. Now.
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One thing that bean counters overlook with regularity in opining about capacity utilization is that in the transportation field.....the moving vehicles have to have ASSURED clear SPACE ahead of the vehicle to be able to move at it's maximum speed.
Bean counters tend to view SPACE as unutilized capacity and think one needs to fill the space.
When it comes to utilization the question becomes how much delay is acceptable to a line at it's maximum capacity.
Line capacity is a function of the speed one intends to operate the line at....the lower the speed the higher the capacity as the braking distances are shorter, however it one applies slower speeds to a single track operating environment they capacity gets decreased and the time consumed between meet and pass locations increases slowing down the number of vehicles the line can handle.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
BaltACDOne thing that bean counters overlook with regularity in opining about capacity utilization is that in the transportation field.....the moving vehicles have to have ASSURED clear SPACE ahead of the vehicle to be able to move at it's maximum speed. Bean counters tend to view SPACE as unutilized capacity and think one needs to fill the space. When it comes to utilization the question becomes how much delay is acceptable to a line at it's maximum capacity. Line capacity is a function of the speed one intends to operate the line at....the lower the speed the higher the capacity as the braking distances are shorter, however it one applies slower speeds to a single track operating environment they capacity gets decreased and the time consumed between meet and pass locations increases slowing down the number of vehicles the line can handle.
BaltACD,
The stuff you're talking about is appropriate between Penn Station and Newark, beyond which the line goes from two tracks to four.
The problem for Amtrak is that, notwithstanding the suburban traffic around New York, Philadelphia, Baltimore, and Washington, DC, only 3-4 trains an hour in one direction are run over the Corridor. This certainly reflects under-utilization. Most high speed lines in Europe and Asia would have twice or more that number.
Four Tracks, let me count the rails.
Yes, once you clear the Burgen Tunnels, Amtrak has mostly four tracks south to Philadelphia. The story in January "Trains" gives the breakdown on Penn Station and the Hudson Tubes, 232 trains a day through the tunnels. South of Philly, it's mostly two tracks with passing sidings, all the bridges are only two tracks. Heading into Baltimore you do get some more four track lines untill you hit the two track tunnels in and out of Baltimore Station. Then on to Washington on a two track line.
Now let us add to that SEPTA (Philadelphia) and MARC (Baltimore to Washington) commuter service little space is left.
Lots of money, more tracks, better signal systems, anything is possible.
Don U. TCA 73-5735
The NEC is not underutilized but full most of the time...you need the empty blocks to maintian speeds. Of course once you get a braking system that stops a 200 mph train on a dime withing 3 seconds, the the concept changes. Commuter services from New London to D.C. complicate Amtrak's own operations with their attendant patterns. Peak times packs the mains with bottle necks at junctions and major stops where dwell times are longer than 15 to 30 seconds. The PRR wisdom was as many fly overs and duck unders as possible which is why the Corridor is actually as funcitonal as it is. I'm not sure a 5, 6 , 7 or 8 track main is the answer, either, but certainly 3 or 4 tracks in selected 2 track territory could be wise. Most importanly is to not let the momentary decrease in passengers and use fool one into thinking improvements and expansion are not needed.The future shows there will be more people and more need for transportation of them and thier freight. If anything is underutilized on the NEC is the opportunity to plan and build for the future.
Trying to predict traffic 10 - 20 yrs in the future much less 50 Years. I will try to take the capacity problems south from New York. But first a couple of maybe conditions.
A. Signaling improves to decrease the headways.
B. Rolling stock will meet a certain minimum acceleration slowing specs.
C. Upgrade CAT to Constant tension 60Hz 25Kv.
NOW
1. The east river will have two more single track tunnels with high clearances built feeding into lengthened platforms.
2. The new NJ Transit tunnels will finally be connected from NYP to NYG. They will also be connected to the additional east river tunnels.
3. 4 tracks from the west of Hudson ( 2 north river, 2 NJTransit) through Secaucus thru Portal bridge ( now under preliminary contracts thru Dock.
4. Six tracks leading thru Dock (an additional bridge) into Newark Penn Sta. Provisions to add track over the present Newark Penn as well ( a very long range plann )
5 . Necessary flyovers to/from the Raritan Valley line.
6. Move that part of the PATH storage yard south of Newark Penn to get other necessary flyovers to improve fluidity.
7. 6 tracks to the Long branch junctions should be enough.
8. 4 tracks to north of Trenton except maybe more tracks a few miles north of Trenton to additional PHL tracks to cover SEPTA.
9. 4 tracks on to WASH to allow fast AMTRAKs to overtake SEPTAs and MARCs locals and semi - locals.
If all this is accomplished along with lengthening NYP platforms then enough trains could run to reach capacity.
Note: there are four tracks from Trenton to the Meadows where the line crosses NJT Morristown line. Note: the new NJT tunnels are dead ended and at a different level than NYP. Note: even the new NJT tunnel tracks will join the NEC while also feeding the Bergen Co and Main Lines. Note: Only planning right now under the East RIver is to GCT for LIRR, but need for more to NYP is almost a given. Note: There are plans already in place to replace Portal Bridge. These conditions and provisions will probably last the next 10 to 20 years at least.
blue streak 1Trying to predict traffic 10 - 20 yrs in the future much less 50 Years. I will try to take the capacity problems south from New York. But first a couple of maybe conditions. A. Signaling improves to decrease the headways. B. Rolling stock will meet a certain minimum acceleration slowing specs. C. Upgrade CAT to Constant tension 60Hz 25Kv. NOW 1. The east river will have two more single track tunnels with high clearances built feeding into lengthened platforms. 2. The new NJ Transit tunnels will finally be connected from NYP to NYG. They will also be connected to the additional east river tunnels. 3. 4 tracks from the west of Hudson ( 2 north river, 2 NJTransit) through Secaucus thru Portal bridge ( now under preliminary contracts thru Dock. 4. Six tracks leading thru Dock (an additional bridge) into Newark Penn Sta. Provisions to add track over the present Newark Penn as well ( a very long range plann ) 5 . Necessary flyovers to/from the Raritan Valley line. 6. Move that part of the PATH storage yard south of Newark Penn to get other necessary flyovers to improve fluidity. 7. 6 tracks to the Long branch junctions should be enough. 8. 4 tracks to north of Trenton except maybe more tracks a few miles north of Trenton to additional PHL tracks to cover SEPTA. 9. 4 tracks on to WASH to allow fast AMTRAKs to overtake SEPTAs and MARCs locals and semi - locals. If all this is accomplished along with lengthening NYP platforms then enough trains could run to reach capacity.
Like you say, 10-20 years to get the critical tunnels into Manhattan. The other projects seems oriented more toward suburban capacity, but how much would the half dozen Amtrak trains contribute to the cost of express tracks for a couple hours a day?
In the meantime new equipment could meet some of the peak demand that may be turned away.
I'm just thinking: if Amtrak doesn't want to make bi-levels part of it's long-range build/replace program, at least they could piggy-back on a NJT double-deck order for maybe 20 cars fitted for regional service.
HarveyK400 In the meantime new equipment could meet some of the peak demand that may be turned away. I'm just thinking: if Amtrak doesn't want to make bi-levels part of it's long-range build/replace program, at least they could piggy-back on a NJT double-deck order for maybe 20 cars fitted for regional service.
According to all Amtrak documents they are looking for a base number of 65 single level cars and 35 bi-level cars per year. Amtrak anticipates regional, state, and other authorities may piggy back their orders onto these amounts. That will give the manufacturer who wins each of these shell orders a long base line to spread out costs. A wag only --- not a SWAG guesses that could translate into 90 - 100 single levels for 10 years and 70 - 75 bi-levels a year for over 20 years.
The Amtrak document is on this web site under "Fleet strategy plan " Revison "A" Page 37.
http://www.amtrak.com/servlet/ContentServer/Page/1241245669222/1237608345018
I have not found what changes were made from the original to rev A
blue streak 1HarveyK400 In the meantime new equipment could meet some of the peak demand that may be turned away. I'm just thinking: if Amtrak doesn't want to make bi-levels part of it's long-range build/replace program, at least they could piggy-back on a NJT double-deck order for maybe 20 cars fitted for regional service. According to all Amtrak documents they are looking for a base number of 65 single level cars and 35 bi-level cars per year. Amtrak anticipates regional, state, and other authorities may piggy back their orders onto these amounts. That will give the manufacturer who wins each of these shell orders a long base line to spread out costs. A wag only --- not a SWAG guesses that could translate into 90 - 100 single levels for 10 years and 70 - 75 bi-levels a year for over 20 years. The Amtrak document is on this web site under "Fleet strategy plan " Revison "A" Page 37. http://www.amtrak.com/servlet/ContentServer/Page/1241245669222/1237608345018 I have not found what changes were made from the original to rev A
The bi-levels in Amtrak's plan would supercede the Superliner and California cars. I'm somewhat ambivalent about these being a universal non-NEC solution. True, they have essential low-level boarding and high capacity for peak period Surfliners and Hiawathas; but lack of tilting makes them ill-suited for some routes such as for Michigan and the Piedmont.
My concern in recent exchanges has centered on the immediate need for at least some low-clearance bi-levels for the NEC. I probably haven't been as explicit as I might have been.
HarveyK400My concern in recent exchanges has centered on the immediate need for at least some low-clearance bi-levels for the NEC. I probably haven't been as explicit as I might have been.
Good clarification. I wonder if these could be built with tilt?
From "Amtrak Ink", Feb. 2010, page 4
"FY'11 Grant and Legislative Request Includes Long-Awaited Fleet Plan"
Per President Boardman -- "These include direct investments in such vital aspects of our operation as the fleet and our stations." The acquisitions --- 780 single-level cars, 420 bi-level cars, 70 electric locomotives, 264 diesel locomotives, and 25 Acela Express train sets over the next 14 years --- are currently unfunded and require an investment of about $319 million in FY'11 and considerably more in future years.
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