From the Lagoon of Liquidspaceman...
Thanks for the heads up CMStPnP! It's not really rocket science and I figured someone out there must be doing it. If you come across the information, please let me know. Thanks!!
...Liquidspaceman, over and out
Liquidspaceman An eeyore is a person who is always depressed and has nothing positive to say. Eeyore was the donkey in Winnie the Pooh.
An eeyore is a person who is always depressed and has nothing positive to say. Eeyore was the donkey in Winnie the Pooh.
Lots of those on this website (hee-hee).
Seems to me there is a firm doing this elsewhere for private passenger cars. Came across it in either the trainweb listings or the AAPRCO listings.
Currently, I am looking at Roseville, Ca as home base, but SF/Reno/So Cal might also work.
"Over and out"??? It is either one, or the other. You have been watching too much of Broderick Crawford in "Highway Patrol" on way-late-nite TV! If you are done with your reply, say "over". If you instigated the call, and are done, you can say "out", unless you are talking to your commanding general. If you are REALLY serious, I suggest you join the American Association of Private Rail Car Owners www.aaprco.com . Try an Associate membership. More expensive than RPCA, but more serious info. Membership gives you access to the entire member roster and contact info, plus the cars they own. Some may be looking for partners, etc.. Please tell us where you live, or want the car domociled. That is very, very important to owners. I, for one, wouldn't want to drive (I don't fly) or even Amtrak mega-miles to see/gain access to "my" car. Keep us posted!
Hays
P. S. what is an "eeyore"? Is that a medical, or social, condition? Got any B. C. Bud?
Hello everyone! This is my first post here at Trains. I guess I could have started a new post, but I thought it was enough relevant to this topic. I am about to join RPCA, as I am interested in forming a group of interested parties for the sole purpose of purchasing a very beautiful Business Car. I seem to get the "bug" this time every year (late winter, early spring). I want to be able to spread out the pain/pleasure of owning one of these "land yachts." I have seen it possible with jets and want to transfer that business model to PV. If anyone has any ideas, or guidance, that would be great. It has been interesting reading people's views on this thread. I know I need to keep reality in check, but I don't need to hear from any eeyores out there.
You can also get some very good info at the Railroad Passenger Car Alliance site, www.rpca.com .
BNSFwatcherI'd think the dinky SP loco could have negotiated it.
Nope, the Handsome working beauty was too wide in the skirts and running boards to do it. More power and comfort, and all that jazz. They said in their tweets that they were scrapping platforms.
BNSFwatcherThe problem, methinks, with the "4449-Eastbound" trip from CHI to Owasso, was that someone at Amtrak &/or NS didn't check the bridge clearances in time, ergo the "necessary" detour.
That's what sent her to Michigan City in the first place, yes. They forwarded 4449 alone over the river and through the woods, and left the P42 and the coaches in Chicago for the night. the next morning, her train was to ride out on the yellows of one of the first morning Wolverines. What actually happened, was that that Wolverine went East, it's partner came by Westbound, then the first Wolverine had enough time to finish it's route and COME BACK west later before there was hide or hair of the 4449's train coming to meet her.
-Morgan
NYC steam power was built for some tight clearances which were rarely an issue for western railroads, which goes a long way in explaining why SP 4449 was too big.
The problem, methinks, with the "4449-Eastbound" trip from CHI to Owasso, was that someone at Amtrak &/or NS didn't check the bridge clearances in time, ergo the "necessary" detour. If a NYC "Niagara" could use the route, I'd think the dinky SP loco could have negotiated it. Fighting words? Yar! I love it!
bartman-tn Amtrak can operate charter trips over most railroads, but they aren't cheap. For a decent sized train, you are looking at $35,000 to $50,000 a day if they provide the locomotives (which Amtrak generally requires) and some of the equipment. Amtrak is generally pretty slow about getting the contract to you also. It is not uncommon to get the final paperwork the day of the trip or just a few days earlier. They are, however, much better on getting your car added to a regular Amtrak train since that is a much more common event. However, in some cases, you also have to pay for an additional locomotive as some Amtrak trains are already maximized as far as locomotive pulling power is concerned. Folks like Bennett Levin, Friends of 261, and a few others, have all of their equipment Amtraked and have worked with Amtrak a great deal to allow them to operate under the authority of Amtrak. While this is not cheap, it is cheaper since some of the costs don't have to be repeated. Having some political and business savy doesn't hurt either.
Amtrak can operate charter trips over most railroads, but they aren't cheap. For a decent sized train, you are looking at $35,000 to $50,000 a day if they provide the locomotives (which Amtrak generally requires) and some of the equipment. Amtrak is generally pretty slow about getting the contract to you also. It is not uncommon to get the final paperwork the day of the trip or just a few days earlier. They are, however, much better on getting your car added to a regular Amtrak train since that is a much more common event. However, in some cases, you also have to pay for an additional locomotive as some Amtrak trains are already maximized as far as locomotive pulling power is concerned.
Folks like Bennett Levin, Friends of 261, and a few others, have all of their equipment Amtraked and have worked with Amtrak a great deal to allow them to operate under the authority of Amtrak. While this is not cheap, it is cheaper since some of the costs don't have to be repeated. Having some political and business savy doesn't hurt either.
One of the things I was told by a 4449 guy, was that if they could get it running, they would be allowed to use the F40PHI they picked up instead of a P42. A different, but also matching spin to what you said. I wonder if that wouldn't cost more though, fir direct maintnence, but it sure looks better in paint. I do wonder if that would have saved them though trying to get the train out of Chicago the next morning on the way to Owosso, having their own engine and not dependednt on Amtrak digging out a fresh P42, but I don't recall all the details that put them 5 hours behind.
bartman-tn In many cases, if the car used is in the proper place, it can actually be cheaper to use a private car than to put everyone in Amtrak bedrooms on the same train.
One of the things I've pondered on in my HO universe, is how to make better use of the Sep-Down sleepers. Including (and I;m gonna go off into a semi-wild tangent here) a key-lock door, and allowing organizations to tack on a sleeper or two for VIPs, and/or an "office car". Now, you can run into extra costs, but the organization can have cars that they can run thir way (to an extent, anyway) spend money on Amtrak food if they so desired or trinkets, AND be able to intermingle with the public. Now, while CEOs could care less, a major newspaper could use this as an opportunity to do interviews comfortably, or if it's someone like the NRHS, they can invite guests into the private car to do presentations, or even invite the lesser members to do slide shows on the go.
Yes, I know I'm carzy, and yes, one would have to fight over who go to use the step down. But I'm not sure there's that much Private Varnish movements at one time on one train. And there is potential in the car.
I run charter passenger train trips quite often and have a few comments on car moves.
First, if you want to get into the business, many current owners will happily sell a share of their car which gives you only part of the pain while still getting to use the car some. You can also rent a car as you need. However, understand that it is somewhat like buying vacation space, you might not get to use it when you want and sudden costs can also arise.
Next, all of the Class I railroads have policies that while they will move your private car, it is moved as a freight move and no one can ride in the car, including mechanical forces. Most of the rates I have been quoted recently are about $5+ per miles with generally a minimum of $2000 to $5000 per move, no matter the distance. The cars you see on some BNSF trains either belong to BNSF (used for marketing and inspections) or belong to a connecting railroad and the run through route is being inspected or marketed. JB Hunt did ride a few trains in the early days to see the routes and services before moving a lot of the highway traffic to rail.
Many shortlines are also adverse to moving passenger cars, especially with passengers, since their insurance often doesn't include that "commodity". You also run into the issue of excepted track (no occupied passenger trains allowed).
Besides AAPRCO, you might want to check out RPCA (Railroad Passenger Car Alliance) as they work with both Amtrak and the FRA on passenger car standards and regulations. The meeting a week ago featured presentations by both the FRA and Amtrak as well as a number of car owners and operators. There was also a training program on car brakes.
Finally, I certainly recommend that everyone consider a private car trip. In many cases, if the car used is in the proper place, it can actually be cheaper to use a private car than to put everyone in Amtrak bedrooms on the same train.
Bart
CSSHEGEWISCH It would probably be in violation of the Rail Passenger Service Act as amended since BNSF, through its predecessors, surrendered its common carrier passenger obligations when it joined Amtrak.
Maybe, but I don't believe so. For one, it depends on how much SF, and or BN tned over to Amtrak. SOme places were allowed to keep commuter, and stuff that Amtrak didn't want. Though the majority did dump everything, SF was still spinning a marginal profit on the Chiefs.
Nothign is stopping JB HUNT or Scheinder from wanting to see how their equipment is being handled. Hence the purpose of the Silver Zs. Likewise, what is preventing them from being able to change trains from UP or KCS to CSX or whomever? UP isn't gonna send their business car all the way to Ohio, but the customer wants to see it. (Sales Ploy) So, use someone else's.
CSSHEGEWISCHNo reason, methinks, a PV couldn't be included in the lash-up.
BNSFwatcher BNSF, for one, runs a lot of "Silver 'Z' trains" A "Z" train is a premium-service domestic trailer inter-modal. They tack on a bunch of business cars and 'away they go'. The business trains have their own HEP car and the engineers are VERY careful, especially of slack-action. Only disasters slow down a "Silver Z". No reason, methinks, a PV couldn't be included in the lash-up. Of course, the "tail car" position would be used by the railway, for inspecting/viewing the ROW, unless the business cars were deadheading. I have seen "Silver Zs" go by with only one attendant on board (lucky guy!! What a job!). Might be worth a try, but scheduling (in advance) would be a bear. Hays
BNSF, for one, runs a lot of "Silver 'Z' trains" A "Z" train is a premium-service domestic trailer inter-modal. They tack on a bunch of business cars and 'away they go'. The business trains have their own HEP car and the engineers are VERY careful, especially of slack-action. Only disasters slow down a "Silver Z". No reason, methinks, a PV couldn't be included in the lash-up. Of course, the "tail car" position would be used by the railway, for inspecting/viewing the ROW, unless the business cars were deadheading. I have seen "Silver Zs" go by with only one attendant on board (lucky guy!! What a job!). Might be worth a try, but scheduling (in advance) would be a bear.
Any such request would probably be turned down by the carrier without a second thought. There are probably no published tariffs to govern such a move. It would probably be in violation of the Rail Passenger Service Act as amended since BNSF, through its predecessors, surrendered its common carrier passenger obligations when it joined Amtrak.
Anyone want to go "halvsies", or shares, on a new GE P42DMM*? (*: "Dual Mode". The second "M" is for Modified. I think GE would be happy to put a replica Alco PA, or FA, nose on one). That would be cool! My BNSF stock (NYSE: BNI) has gone up so much I don't know what to do with all the money! Base color? NYC "Lightning Stripes", of course, in the passenger two-tone grey. That would be negotiable, depending upon your contribution. PRR red? No! PRR "Brunswick Green"? Maybe....
passengerfanI was once curious myself about owning a private railcar until I spoke to an owner odf a private car. His definition was it runs on tracks and consumes endless supply of dollars. Having once owned a large boat it was descibed as a hole in the water that consumed endless supply of money. Needless to say I sold boat and my sanity returned, although some still question the latter. Al - in - Stockton
I was once curious myself about owning a private railcar until I spoke to an owner odf a private car. His definition was it runs on tracks and consumes endless supply of dollars.
Having once owned a large boat it was descibed as a hole in the water that consumed endless supply of money. Needless to say I sold boat and my sanity returned, although some still question the latter.
Al - in - Stockton
Then there are sailboats. I have a cousin who has gone across the Atlantic twice. She agrees that that taking a trip on one is like taking a cold shower while tearing up 4100 bills. She's in Aruba thinking about the Pacific. She is the family nut. Also the family genius, which makes it all possible.
Jack
Back to question #5: if you have the combination to Scrooge McDuck's money bin, I would suggest you buy a NEW Amtrak-compatible locomotive. All Amtrak all-PV trains run with an Amtrak loco, especially those with a steam loco in the lead, for protection power and HEP capabilities. If you owned a suitable loco, you could go 'anywhere' with it, even into GCT or Penn Sta., if it was properly (DM) equipped. You could paint it any scheme you liked, even changing it, often, with the plastic film overlays now used. It would be operated by Amtrak personnel on their charters, of course. I'm sure Amtrak would be happy for you to provide the power.
A suggestion might be for those interested in this experience; owning, riding, enjoying. Check out the areas of the AAPRCO website devoted to the chartering/traveling in, or owning Private Varnish:
http://aaprco.com/
And if you would want to try out a trip by Private Varnish, here's another site that also offers charter services:
http://www.landcrailroad.com/luxcharter.html
I just read this post and I've seen the Cimarron River in St. Louis railyards. It caught my eye when I was on one of Rail Cruise America's trips and I took a pic of it showing the Frisco name. But I had no idea who it belonged to. It's always good to see the Frisco name anywhere. We'd watch for Frisco freight cars when my parents & I traveled, it was interesting to see how they far they were from home.
I saw a Frisco hopper a few years ago when I was waiting for our light rail Metrolink which runs parallel to UP and BNSF tracks in some areas of town. It had to be old but it was still rolling. I'd always see a lot of coal cars being hauled by UP zipping past our Metrolink platform and there was Frisco mixed in with them.
We had a cool train that ran out of St. Louis for a few years-Rail Cruise America. It was a privately owned RR that had it's own observation car at the rear end. I took a few day trips with them and it was great fun to stand on the rear and wave to people as we passed, pretending that we were on our own private car. It was sold a few years ago to KCS and they use it to run trips. TRAINS did a feature article about it a few months ago. I'm glad someone took it over, but I miss it. It parked at our old Union Station which was renovated into a hotel and shopping mall.
I have had an Amtrak certified private car for about 25 years, so have some experience in this. The car is Cimarron River, 1948 Pullman sleeper built for Frisco RR. We have operated the car for over 400,000 miles. So, my comments on your questions:
1) Cost--minimum I have seen for an operating Amtrak certified car is about $150,000. This would be a streamlined post war sleeping car. Amtrak sold off lots of their 10-6 HEP cars, so they are pretty easy to find. Heavyweight open platform business cars, domes, etc. are going to be more, but that gives you a starting point. After you get the thing, the question is, how are you going to maintain it? Are you handy with tools, plumbing, electrical work? Or will you have to hire someone to do anything mechanical? The maintenance is endless-these cars are at least 50-60 years old. For us, I am a mechanical engineer and love to tinker. So minor maintence I do. Heavy work, like the truck rebuild or "brake job" (every 4 years) must be done at a shop. Although, we did have a very friendly siding for a while (1993-94) and did truck disassembly ourselves and jsut sent the parts to a shop for re-working. Aside from the original purchase price, you can figure minimum maintenance and insurance and annual inspections will be $10-15,000 per year, assuming no major problems. Major problems are new wheels, new generators, etc. Those are additional things that wear out, break.
2) Parking. This is a big issue. Luckily, here in St Louis there is a private car "park". Outside storage, no electricity is $300 per month. If you want to keep your car on power, it's more. Over the years, we have frequently parked our car on shortlines. Some are quite friendly to the idea. We've paid as little as $100 per month for storage, but there was no security. That was a problem in urban area, where we had a couple break-ins-no vandalism, just stealing. You certainly can park a railroad car outside in the weather, but like an automobile or anything, the sun and rain accelerate the deterioration. You might find a friendly industry that has track they don't use. Those unused sidings are hard to find now, as the railroads like to remove turnouts that don't generate a lot of revenue.
3) Amtrak cost is $2.10 per mile. No switching cost if they do the switching. Overnight parking is more, pumpout the holding tanks adds on also. Generally, you can only go between the major cities where Amtrak has big facitlities. Like, St Louis-Chicago. They do not like to delay the train to set out or pick up private cars at intermediate points. There are a couple exceptions, like Lamy NM and Whitefish MT. At those places you pay a fee (in terms of $1,000+ each way) for switching by the non-Amtrak line.
4) Freight moves. You will not be allowed to ride your car on any major rr. Shortlines, again, may be different. Freight moves are quite expensive. Some major lines have $2,000 or so minimums and may charge $5 per mile. Note that at the end of your trip, you will have to arrange to have your car switched off Amtraks station and to your storage site. That cost can be steep.
5) Private train--forget about it. The big railroads are not interested in running private passenger trains. Most of the private trains you see pictures of are actually operated as Amtrak moves, regardless of the paint scheme on the locomotive. Think in terms of $40+ per mile. Again, if you have access to a friendly shortline, that is totally different.
If you have an interest in private cars, I would definitely encourage you to join AAPRCO, which is what I did. You can make many helpful contacts there. Email me if you wish to discuss further.
Tony
The reality of Private rail car operations falls into the category of....
If you have to ask how much it costs.....you can't afford it.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Frankly, I believe this vacation idea to be quite cost prohibited. Although I've heard it's a great experience. However, I think that Amtrak is not optimizing this opportunity for revenue. How can adding one extra car to a train be that difficult? It could really produce some good business if they lowered their per mile prices (I think it's around $2/mile, correct me if I'm wrong) and other fees such as switching, servicing, and storage.
I'll second the holiday gift. I agree that a railcar would be horribly expensive to maintain. I could justify the expense. I would have to use it constantly in order to enjoy it.
Will
The answer to how much a car costs depends on a variety of factors -- what it is, what condition it is in, if it is currently Amtrak certified, and many more. They can range from $30,000 to the $1.3 million one was recently listed for. Here is a link to a broker which will give you an idea of the variety and the costs to purchase:
Equipment For Sale#obscars
Frankly, if you can afford to do this, you might also consider sending each and every forum member a nice holiday gift.
Check out the American Association of Private RailcarOwners site, www.aaprco.com for some info. If you join, as an Associate Member ($90.00 / year), you can delve into all of the technical stuff and get a listing for the members, and their cars. Associate status also allows you to discover listings of up-coming trips and priority for boarding/space. Don't join until the start of the New Year. Membership runs by the calendar year!
To answer your questions, in order: 1.) Megabucks! No 'ballpark'. 2.) Most store the cars in covered areas, like an old warehouse. Some (eg. in Milwaukee) are stored in an Amtrak train shed. Getting the PV out-of-the-weather is absolutely crucial! 3.) Amtrak has a special group that handles PV moves. It gets very involved, to say the least. You can be dropped from an Amtrak train at many places and have another carrier pick you up (eg. going to the Grand Canyon or spending a week in Whitefish, MT skiing). Make sure you have "hotel power" available, wherever you stop. 4.) You can go anywhere you want. Remember, 480v. "Amtrak-compatible power" is the deciding factor, if you want to travel on their trains, plus their mechanical requirements, which can get 'picky' at times. There are non-compatible railcars for sale on the AAPRCO site, but your travel choices are limited. If you live on a short line, and just want to go up-and-down it, on occasion, that might work. The non-Amtrak compatible cars are much cheaper, but most can be converted. 5a.) Depends on the railroad. Benett Levin runs his "PRR" E-8s all over the place. 5b.) Again, this depends on the railroad. Ask around. I hope this helps. More info available if you e-mail me at wdh@mcn.net .
Bill Hays AAPRCO #8003, Shelby, MT
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