Phoebe Vet Sam1 No matter what spin (advertising) is put on the service, most people are not going to get up in the middle of the night to take a passenger train when they can fly or drive in the morning. Moreover, most business people who have access to good air service are not going to spend two to four hours on a train when they can fly to their destination in an hour or two. Charlotte has lots of transportation options. We have 2 daytime trains, we are USAir's largest hub, we have Greyhound, and we are at the intersection of 2 Interstate Highways, yet quite a few people DO get up in the middle of the night to take that train, and the train is usually pretty full. My point in claiming that advertising is needed was that a significant portion of the population in Charlotte doesn't even know that we have passenger train service or where the station is if they did want to take it. In fact, if NC had a train that went to the Greensboro Airport it would be well used because a lot of people drive to Greensboro to get on a USAir flight that then comes through Charlotte because it is substantially cheaper than boarding in Charlotte so it doesn't seem like time is the big motivator.
Sam1 No matter what spin (advertising) is put on the service, most people are not going to get up in the middle of the night to take a passenger train when they can fly or drive in the morning. Moreover, most business people who have access to good air service are not going to spend two to four hours on a train when they can fly to their destination in an hour or two.
No matter what spin (advertising) is put on the service, most people are not going to get up in the middle of the night to take a passenger train when they can fly or drive in the morning. Moreover, most business people who have access to good air service are not going to spend two to four hours on a train when they can fly to their destination in an hour or two.
Charlotte has lots of transportation options. We have 2 daytime trains, we are USAir's largest hub, we have Greyhound, and we are at the intersection of 2 Interstate Highways, yet quite a few people DO get up in the middle of the night to take that train, and the train is usually pretty full.
My point in claiming that advertising is needed was that a significant portion of the population in Charlotte doesn't even know that we have passenger train service or where the station is if they did want to take it. In fact, if NC had a train that went to the Greensboro Airport it would be well used because a lot of people drive to Greensboro to get on a USAir flight that then comes through Charlotte because it is substantially cheaper than boarding in Charlotte so it doesn't seem like time is the big motivator.
My point was that Amtrak appears to spend a reasonable amount on sales and advertising. Moreover, it increased significantly between 2007 and 2008, although the numbers for 2009 have not been finalized. How much of the advertising dollars was spent on the Crescent is not disclosed in Amtrak's annual reports.
An average of 43,904 passengers departed daily during FY09 on flights from Douglas International Airport. A nearly equal number arrived. The number of folks taking the Crescent or the other trains to and from Charlotte would hardly register on a comparative radar screen.
Amtrak should spend money for sales and marketing where there is a likely payoff, e.g. relatively short, high density corridor trains. Spending money on advertising for a long distance trains that lose buckets of money, especially in cities where they call in the middle of the night, is not a good business decision. Whoops, there I go again. Assuming that Amtrak is run like a business.
jeatonActually, Amtrak may be doing even more with the pricing than straight forward demand pricing. Looking a couple months ahead, the $154 fare remains in effect on the Crescent, but the regional fare drops to $59. It is appearant that Amtrak seeks to avoid having travelers from Lynchburg and points north from putting the Crescent in a "sold out" condition and thus losing seats that would otherwise be used by travelers coming from points south of Lynchburg. On the same day in February, I found the fare from Atlanta at $108 and New Orleans at $125. Given the relative distances, it would seem that $59 would in normal circumstances be an appropriate fare level to attract travelers from Lynchburg. The issue becomes clearer looking at the Lynchburg to Washington, DC fares. Again in February, the fares are for that trip are $74 for the Crescent and $29 for the regional. Without fares on the Crescent being set at the higher level, it is possible that it could run most of the trip way below capacity. Amtrak could simply but in a timetable provision to restrict travelers from boarding the northbound Crescent at Lynchburg and points north, but the present setup leaves open the option for the traveler that wants to get to a destination a hour or so ahead of the arrival time set up for the regional. In that case, Amtrak can actually get more revenue for the seat than they would on a ticket from New Orleans. There are other places on the system where the availability of long haul seats are protected. The Empire Builder has a separate train number for Chicago to Minneapolis travelers, with some limited number of seats on the available for those travelers. They can be sold out and still leave seats for travelers going beyond Minneapolis.
Actually, Amtrak may be doing even more with the pricing than straight forward demand pricing. Looking a couple months ahead, the $154 fare remains in effect on the Crescent, but the regional fare drops to $59. It is appearant that Amtrak seeks to avoid having travelers from Lynchburg and points north from putting the Crescent in a "sold out" condition and thus losing seats that would otherwise be used by travelers coming from points south of Lynchburg. On the same day in February, I found the fare from Atlanta at $108 and New Orleans at $125.
Given the relative distances, it would seem that $59 would in normal circumstances be an appropriate fare level to attract travelers from Lynchburg.
The issue becomes clearer looking at the Lynchburg to Washington, DC fares. Again in February, the fares are for that trip are $74 for the Crescent and $29 for the regional. Without fares on the Crescent being set at the higher level, it is possible that it could run most of the trip way below capacity.
Amtrak could simply but in a timetable provision to restrict travelers from boarding the northbound Crescent at Lynchburg and points north, but the present setup leaves open the option for the traveler that wants to get to a destination a hour or so ahead of the arrival time set up for the regional. In that case, Amtrak can actually get more revenue for the seat than they would on a ticket from New Orleans.
There are other places on the system where the availability of long haul seats are protected. The Empire Builder has a separate train number for Chicago to Minneapolis travelers, with some limited number of seats on the available for those travelers. They can be sold out and still leave seats for travelers going beyond Minneapolis.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
"We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum "We have met the anemone... and he is Russ." Bucky Katt "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr, Nobel laureate in physics
Remember, like the airlines, Amtrak is doing what I call "demand marketing"; as the demand for space goes up, as the amount of available space goes down, the price per ticket goes up. That $164 ticket today was probably $79 if purchased several months ago.
RIDEWITHMEHENRY is the name for our almost monthly day of riding trains and transit in either the NYCity or Philadelphia areas including all commuter lines, Amtrak, subways, light rail and trolleys, bus and ferries when warranted. No fees, just let us know you want to join the ride and pay your fares. Ask to be on our email list or find us on FB as RIDEWITHMEHENRY (all caps) to get descriptions of each outing.
I agree, this is Amtrak's busiest travel period of the year. We have extra trains added here on the NE Corridor due to so much demand for ridership. The other 50 weeks of the year basically is not too big a problem, although it is always best to book as early as practical. It isn't really fair to judge an Amtrak experience at this time of year. It is not a true representation of normal operations day to day. Kind of like going to a shopping mall on Black Friday and assuming that the mall is always like that.
Here is a message for anyone who hasn't noticed. 11/24 is two days before Thanksgiving. If you think there was some problem with getting an Amtrak ticket today, be glad there wasn't a need for an emergency trip tomorrow.
By December 1, conditions return to normal. As of now one could book a coach ticket from Lynchburg to Trenton on the Cresent for $154. It departs Lynchburg at 6:07am and the trip takes 6' 53". A coach ticket on no name Regional Train 176 (7:38am departure, 6' 47" run time) is $79. Beside the prestige of riding a name train, the Cresent has a dining car with full meal service. The regional only has a lounge car with sandwich, snack and beverage service.
While the Amtrak.com reservation page does list the Cresent option above the new regional train, it is very hard to miss the different fares. Amtrak got a fair amount of free press coverage on the start-up of the regional service, and they are offering a big break on the price. Sounds like a decent marketing plan to me.
Bluestreak's headline is very accurate...the route is not marketed but the train is for what it is. Overall this is the basic fault with Amtrak: they were charged to run trains but not to provide service.
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
blue streak 1This situation is confusing and I wonder how many persons will not travel because "no seats available" when a connection can be accomplished.
Sam1No matter what spin (advertising) is put on the service, most people are not going to get up in the middle of the night to take a passenger train when they can fly or drive in the morning. Moreover, most business people who have access to good air service are not going to spend two to four hours on a train when they can fly to their destination in an hour or two.
Phoebe Vet It comes through Charlotte a little after 2 AM in both directions. I take it from time to time and it is always pretty full. It always amazes me how many people get on and off here at such an inconvenient time. I wonder how many people would use it if it came through in the daytime. Even with that, though, when I tell people that we took a train to (wherever) the usual response is "we have trains? Where is the station?" Amtrak needs to spend some money on advertising.
It comes through Charlotte a little after 2 AM in both directions. I take it from time to time and it is always pretty full. It always amazes me how many people get on and off here at such an inconvenient time. I wonder how many people would use it if it came through in the daytime.
Even with that, though, when I tell people that we took a train to (wherever) the usual response is "we have trains? Where is the station?" Amtrak needs to spend some money on advertising.
In FY08 Amtrak spent $98.1 million on Sales and Advertising compared to $83.2 million in FY07. Within these amounts, $43.2 million in FY08 and $34.3 million in FY07 were devoted exclusively to advertising. This was a 25.9 per cent increase in Amtrak's advertising spend for FY08, which outpaced most other expense categories. It is frequently difficult to separate sales and advertising.
At least some of the advertising for state supported trains is hoisted by Amtrak, which is covered in the state reimbursements paid to Amtrak for operations and ancillary services.
Leisure travellers will find most state supported trains to be a reasonable option, as will some business travelers over short distances if the service is frequent. Additional advertising may be warranted if it is directed towards these groups.
henry6 Isn't this a state sponsored service? There for N.C. is as much, if not more, responsible for the marketing and advertising of the service. In fact, Amtrak, I believe, only operates the train and it is up to the State to do the rest.
Isn't this a state sponsored service? There for N.C. is as much, if not more, responsible for the marketing and advertising of the service. In fact, Amtrak, I believe, only operates the train and it is up to the State to do the rest.
No. It is an Amtrak train that was originally run by the Southern Railroad. It runs from New Orleans to NYP. The NC trains are the Piedmont (Charlotte to Raleigh) and the Carolinian (Charlotte to NYP) with another Charlotte to Raleigh train coming around April.
Had to help a friend get on tomorrow night's (24th) Cresent for a family emergency after he could not get a seat. What a dizzy mess. #20 to Charlottesville, then 176 to Washington (the new Va service), then another regional to Trenton. Of course had to go an agent to get this at a decent fare (originally they wanted to sum each separate leg's fare.
After checking also found on both the 24th and 29th Cresent booked full north of Charlottesville but the new reginonal from Charlottesville - Wash with much space available. Then the lynchburg train being filled north of WASH also a problem. It appears to this poster that AMTRAK is not doing enought to direct riders from Lynchburg north to ride the new regional instead of the Cresent. For my friend to have to change trains twice instead of riding the Cresent all the way is inexcuseable when the regional has quite a bit of space available. This also wastes the Cresent seats north of WASH since it takes no new passengers north of WASH.
Southbound plans were not decided to cover this time span but found that 24th. 25th, 29th, 30th southbound Cresents booked full to CVS so anyone would have to take regional to CVS and then transfer to Cresent. This situation is confusing and I wonder how many persons will not travel because "no seats available" when a connection can be accomplished.
Part of the problem is the Cresent is presented first on AMTRAK's web site instead of the Regional trains for points north of Lynchburg. I am thinking of sending an email to Va if I can get a good address noting that their support might be less if the regional service was marketed differently. Plus a revised marketing would get more long distance passengers from ATL, CLT, etc. Also how will the new RIC - NYP- BOS? be marketed.
Any thoughts??
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