The news reports I've read about the upcoming North Coast Hiawatha restoration study don't state anything about including the Willmar, MN (instead of St. Cloud) routing that the pre-cancellation 1979 train took. Will the study look into this possibility or is it out of the question?
I was aware that one of the Montana Senators (is his name Testor?) has been beating the drum for service across southern Montana, perhaps connecting with the Empire Builder at its northwestern end. There is also a good deal of talk about additional Twin Cities/Chicago service and the Twin Cities/Duluth run.
However, I was unaware of any proposal going west from the Twin Cities. Who is pushing this one and how far west are they proposing?
Dakguy201Who is pushing this one and how far west are they proposing?
I don't know. I just know that restoring North Coast Hiawatha service in its 1971-1979 form would include Minnesota routing with Empire Builder's current Twin Cities-St. Cloud-Fargo. But the Empire Builder would then switch to a Twin Cities-Willmar-Fargo route.
Willmar is a little less than 100 miles west of the Twin Cities and is located on ex-GN Wayzata Subdivision.
lattasnip9 Dakguy201Who is pushing this one and how far west are they proposing? I don't know. I just know that restoring North Coast Hiawatha service in its 1971-1979 form would include Minnesota routing with Empire Builder's current Twin Cities-St. Cloud-Fargo. But the Empire Builder would then switch to a Twin Cities-Willmar-Fargo route. Willmar is a little less than 100 miles west of the Twin Cities and is located on ex-GN Wayzata Subdivision.
If Amtrak brings back any train from the past I would like that train to be the Pioneer. I traveled several times on the Pioneer and it was the most difficult train I ever rode to get Sleeping car space on it was always full. I realize that many of the coach passengers were traveling shorter distances but it always seemed to be full to me. As I recall the last time I rode the Pioneer it operated with a Superliner Coach Baggage, Superliner Coach, Superliner Diner with half the upper level as lounge space and the other half for meals, and a Superliner Sleeper. I can't remember where the train terminated the last time I rode it but can remember when it ran across Wyoming to Denver as part of the CZ or San Francisco Zephyr from Ogden and also can remember when it terminated in Salt Lake and ran over the D&RGW to Denver combined with the CZ. I realize that the crew was assigned space in the sleeper but it was a reduced crew in the diner. Every time I rode the Pioneer it was a difficult task to get sleeping car space. Never had a problem getting sleeping car space on the Desert Wind out of LA that also connected with the CZ. In fact if the Southwest Chief was full I always was able to book sleeping car space on the Desert Wind to Chicago. Passengers do not have that option today.
Al - in - Stockton
I think that with the Northstar commuter trains plus 30 plus freights the BNSF St Cloud line would be very busy and would not want another Amtrak train. However placing Amtrak on the BNSF Willmar line just doesn't make sense. I think that Amtrak changes crews at St Cloud and St Cloud has a much larger population than Willmar.One Amtrak train from Chicago to Seattle and Portland has seemed OK for quite awhile.
Minneapolis/ St Paul could make use of an improved service to Chicago. Run a couple of trains to Chicago using the old CB&Q line via La Crosse and East Dubuque and run them on a CB&Q Morning Zephyr schedule of 8AM departure and 2:50 arrival in Chicago and 2:55 PM departure which would arrive in Chicago at 10 PM just like 1959. You want high speed rail; support this!
aricatMinneapolis/ St Paul could make use of an improved service to Chicago. Run a couple of trains to Chicago using the old CB&Q line via La Crosse and East Dubuque and run them on a CB&Q Morning Zephyr schedule of 8AM departure and 2:50 arrival in Chicago and 2:55 PM departure which would arrive in Chicago at 10 PM just like 1959.
As nice a historical run as that was, that route doesn't have a large intermediate city like the old Miwaukee Road route (current Amtrak route). Ideally, it should include Madison, but that would cost more. And high speed implies an average speed of 80mph (5 hours) or better!
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
aricat Minneapolis/ St Paul could make use of an improved service to Chicago. Run a couple of trains to Chicago using the old CB&Q line via La Crosse and East Dubuque and run them on a CB&Q Morning Zephyr schedule of 8AM departure and 2:50 arrival in Chicago and 2:55 PM departure which would arrive in Chicago at 10 PM just like 1959. You want high speed rail; support this!
With Illinois pretty much committed to a train to Dubuque via Rockford, the attractiveness of this route is diminished. Doing something out of Chicago/Milwaukee thru Madison to the Twin Cities would seem to me to be much more logical.
Which brings me to another question. I thought several Congresses ago, a law was passed mandating the cost of any expansion of the Amtrak system had to be met by the state(s) involved. Certainly that is the basis for new trains in California, Illinois and North Carolina, just to name three. However, it seems that the proponents of other routes, for example a revived Pioneer or North Coast Hiawatha, never mention that the states involved will have to pick up the bill.
Are the proponents of additional routes just failing to mention who will have to shoulder the burden or have we moved beyond the concept of state funding?
The Empire Builder would still serve the Milwaukee area from Minneapolis/St Paul. These new Amtrak trains should be geared solely to the Twin Cities- Chicago market. Milwaukee has ample service to Chicago already.Madison could receive expanded Hiawatha service by extending their route to Columbus Wisconsin. The distance from Columbus to Madison is shorter than from many Twin Cities suburbs to Midway station in St Paul. High speed rail may not be available for 5- 15 years. What are we supposed to do; plod along just like we have done since 1971. Six and a half hours is much better than eight. Amtrak is the veichle to phase in high speed rail. One thing that I would check out is using CN from East Dubuque to Chicago to serve Rockford Illinois which is the second largest city in the state.Minnesota and Illinois should help fund this. Minnesota would gain a connection to Amtrak from Rochester Minnesota at Winona Junction Wisconsin via bus.
aricatOne thing that I would check out is using CN from East Dubuque to Chicago to serve Rockford Illinois which is the second largest city in the state.
Reviving the Blackhawk route is still in the planning stage. The MILW/WISOR? route through Milwaukee and Madison is the proposed route b/c greater population. There would seem to be a potential ridership between Milwaukee and MSP. If the BNSF line down the Mississippi were revived, it would serve Naperville/Aurora (pop. 302,000) vs. Metro Rockford (pop. ~300,000).
aricat The Empire Builder would still serve the Milwaukee area from Minneapolis/St Paul. These new Amtrak trains should be geared solely to the Twin Cities- Chicago market. Milwaukee has ample service to Chicago already.Madison could receive expanded Hiawatha service by extending their route to Columbus Wisconsin. The distance from Columbus to Madison is shorter than from many Twin Cities suburbs to Midway station in St Paul. High speed rail may not be available for 5- 15 years. What are we supposed to do; plod along just like we have done since 1971. Six and a half hours is much better than eight. Amtrak is the veichle to phase in high speed rail. One thing that I would check out is using CN from East Dubuque to Chicago to serve Rockford Illinois which is the second largest city in the state.Minnesota and Illinois should help fund this. Minnesota would gain a connection to Amtrak from Rochester Minnesota at Winona Junction Wisconsin via bus.
The CN has a picturesque line between Galena Jct and Apple River that you won't make any time on, even with Talgos. All the same, tourist traffic can back up for 5 miles on US-20 approaching Galena on weekends.
The biggest problem for Madison may be to accept that two stations are needed: near the capitol and university for Hiawathas terminating in Madison, and a park-n-ride station on the east side of town used by all trains.
A couple of state trains, not the Builder or North Coast, should be routed through Rochester, Dodge Center, Owatonna, Faribault, Northfield, and Farmington. For instance, a morning train from Rochester to Moorehead and returning in the afternoon; and an early morning train from Moorehead to Chicago and a late morning next day return from Chicago.
HarveyK400 aricat The Empire Builder would still serve the Milwaukee area from Minneapolis/St Paul. These new Amtrak trains should be geared solely to the Twin Cities- Chicago market. Milwaukee has ample service to Chicago already.Madison could receive expanded Hiawatha service by extending their route to Columbus Wisconsin. The distance from Columbus to Madison is shorter than from many Twin Cities suburbs to Midway station in St Paul. High speed rail may not be available for 5- 15 years. What are we supposed to do; plod along just like we have done since 1971. Six and a half hours is much better than eight. Amtrak is the veichle to phase in high speed rail. One thing that I would check out is using CN from East Dubuque to Chicago to serve Rockford Illinois which is the second largest city in the state.Minnesota and Illinois should help fund this. Minnesota would gain a connection to Amtrak from Rochester Minnesota at Winona Junction Wisconsin via bus. The CN has a picturesque line between Galena Jct and Apple River that you won't make any time on, even with Talgos. All the same, tourist traffic can back up for 5 miles on US-20 approaching Galena on weekends. The biggest problem for Madison may be to accept that two stations are needed: near the capitol and university for Hiawathas terminating in Madison, and a park-n-ride station on the east side of town used by all trains. A couple of state trains, not the Builder or North Coast, should be routed through Rochester, Dodge Center, Owatonna, Faribault, Northfield, and Farmington. For instance, a morning train from Rochester to Moorehead and returning in the afternoon; and an early morning train from Moorehead to Chicago and a late morning next day return from Chicago.
Sounds like Amtrak service to at least Dubuque on the CN should be ready to go by 2011. The CN's mainline splits off from the BNSF mainline at Portage, not Galena Jct. (that's where the old CGW split off to head east).
Also agree that the Builder should be kept on the CPRS from La Crosse/La Crescent northward to Twin Cities. A state/commuter train; certainly to at least Rochester anyway via CPRS/DME might make sense.
As a supporter of expanded service these proposals are great. BUT: The problem of the lack of equipment rears its ugly head. Until AMTRAK issues a request for proposals (RFP) for western long distance equipment all these proposals are just wishful thinking. Lets look at the needed equipment for filling the present needs of operating trains and new ones as well. Souldn't AMTRAK first fill out trains as most costs are based on train miles (RR charges and engineers - conductors)??
A WAG only for the number of additional cars that will be needed
Coaches Sleepers Dinning-Lounges
1. Empire Builder inc PDX 6(12) 12 2
CHI - MSP 2
2. CAL Zephyr 6 6
DEN- CHI 3
3. SW Chief 5 5
4. Orlando Sunset 6 3 3
Sub Totals 34 26 11
Now for the new services
5. Pioneer - Desert Wind with CZ 20 10 6
CHI-Wes Coast 20 10 12
6. HIA 20 10 5
7. Heartland extension to KCY 4 2? 1
Through cars to CHI 6 3? 1
Sub Totals 46 23 18
Grand totals 80 49 29
Total operating Cars 158.
Factor in 20% cars (per AMTRAK reports) at any time out of service 158/ .8 = 198 new cars needed. Does anyone have a figure for how long it took for AMTRAK to have 200 SL cars delivered in the past?
This does not take into account any cars that will be released from midwest service if and when the California type cars are built and assigned to midwest services. Or is rebuilding of SL cars taken into account.
Also no factor for single level cars is contemplated in this post. That is another RFP that needs addressing.
Just to expand services on an existing route can take time such as new pocket tracks in Lynchburg and Richmond. Brand new services may take much longer unless O and D's are at current locations.
It seems that most of the replys are about Minneapolis to St Paul what does North Coast Hiwatha tell you they want the route through southern North Dakota and southern Montana and thats where the intrest is in them two states.
Rail Man 39
Minneapolis
However, what is more likely is the NCHi to get routed thru Southern N. Dak., and the best it's southern neighbor can hope for is an "Am-bus" (Amtrak Thruway motorcoach service) connection from Aberdeen to Jamestown, ND, and perhaps a run from Mobridge, SD up to Bismarck. Sigh... don't know if we'll ever see scheduled varnish back on the old Milwaukee Road (Pacific Extension remnant).
D.M. Mitzel
Interesting and I'd like to see Amtrak take a look at something like that. But, like you, I'm not holding my breath.
I think that any Amtrak service is a non-starter, if it passes through South Dakota. The people there only are interested in electing tax-cheats. The NIMBYs, in Rochester, MN would thwart any more rail service. Wanna go to the silly Mayo Clinic to die? Take the bus! One, or the other, will kill you!
A nice, dependable Amtraker, from MSP to SPO, and beyond, to SEA/PDX, would hit Bismark, ND and Billings/Bozeman/Helena, three of our most populaced/populated cities in Montana, along with Butte/Anaconda, a nice ride. "Grey-Dog" don't go there anymore! Greyhound's motto: "you can't get there from here, Go **** on a phone pole!". It would give the people in Great Falls an alternative, too.
Regarding the MILW, we have a great contingent of "part-time farmers" that disparage BNSF for exhorbinate rates. These are the people that let CMStP&P (Milwaukee Road) die! They spend three months in Montana: one to sow their crop, two to harvest and plant their winter wheat. They 'summer' in the mountains and 'winter' in Arizona, laughing all-the-way-to-the-bank with their "Gummint" checks. Dat's Montana! No wonder we have two Democrat senators and a Dem governor! He, too, cries all the way, when he deposits his check for "Not Growing Mint"!!!
Bill Hays -- Shelby, MT wdh@mcn.net
^^^^ Um, ouch.
Sorry! I didn't think anyone in South Dakota would notice my misspelling of "exorbitant"! Good eye, Mr. Dorgan! Now, get back to your "Turbo-Tax" program and H & R Block advisers....
Bill
BNSFwatcherSorry! I didn't think anyone in South Dakota would notice my misspelling of "exorbitant"! Good eye, Mr. Dorgan! Now, get back to your "Turbo-Tax" program and H & R Block advisers.... Bill
That wasn't it. Overall the tone was kind of harsh towards those that live in the Northern Plains states. I don't care though. The Milwaukee Road died because of several bad decisions made by management. It's true they were very customer focused and customer service oriented (ahead of their time in that area) and would have been raking in the money now had they survived. The death of the Milwaukee had more to due with bad decisions then anything, the biggest being the overwhealming debt they took on as part of the Pacific Extension. They went through several bankruptcies accumulated more debt and never got rid of most of the large chuck of debt from building and acquiring the railroad. In short they built the railroad before the traffic was there. Same deal with their building and upgrading of the Southwestern (Milwaukee-Kansas City). Way ahead of it's time and even now its not what was originally envisioned. Had the Saint Lauarnce Seaway become the major trade route envisioned. Milwaukee and Seattle would have become major ports and the Milwaukee would have been sitting pretty. Could have, Would have, Should have. None of that came to pass. Anyhow, my two cents.
A couple of observations about the St. Lawrence Seaway are in order. It should be kept in mind that the Seaway was also intended as a way for lake boats to reach Montreal as well as let larger salt-water freighters reach the Great Lakes. Foreign-flag traffic probably never reached the numbers that were hoped for, the Port of Chicago never saw more than 500 foreign-flag ships in a given year. The Seaway was never a year-round operation, I'm not sure that a practical method of keeping locks in operation during the winter has been devised. Containerization of international freight beginning in the late 1970's probably killed off most foreign-flag traffic on the Great Lakes beyond bulk grain shipments.
CSSHEGEWISCHA couple of observations about the St. Lawrence Seaway
Here's another observation: the St. Lawrence Seaway brought zebra mussels to the Great Lakes.
Perhaps they are not as bad as rabbits are in Australia, but we certainly could do without them in our freshwater lakes.
Johnny
The Seaway also allowed the lamprey eels to enter the Great Lakes, although some of them may have gotten in via the Welland Canal.
It should have been named the "Chicago, Milwaukee, St. Paul and Redundant". It didn't go anywhere that others hadn't gone before west of Miles City, MT. Lots of duplicate mileage and branches to 'nowhere'. It was colorful and innovative. The restored (no trains) station in Great Falls, MT is magnificent.
Today, the Montana Rail Link's ex-Northern Pacific route only handles a dozen-and-a-half trains, not enough for two parallel railroads, and that includes some 'newer' PRB coal traffic.
Bill Hays -- Shelby, MT
BNSFwatcher The Seaway also allowed the lamprey eels to enter the Great Lakes, although some of them may have gotten in via the Welland Canal.
Lampreys got into the Great Lakes before the Seaway was built. They probably got in by way of the small 250-foot ocean freighters that could fit through the old locks.
If they had made the St. Lawrence Seaway capable of handling bigger (wider) ships, they would have had to re-build the Welland Canal, widened/deepend the Detroit River, and, probably, replaced the locks at Sault Ste. Marie. A great boondoggle opportunity missed! Where was O'Bamonopoly money when we needed it?
Off-topic, again, but... Yesterday, BNSF named a new siding, on the Great Falls Sub. (Laurel-Shelby), near Broadview, MT for Walter Braeunig. Walter will turn 113 y-o-a next month, with any luck, and the siding is called "Walter". He worked for the Great Northern Railroad for about fifty years, and is, reportedly, the oldest man in the world! The siding is part of a new spur line to the Signal Point Coal Mine, which is 35-miles in length. BNSF CEO Matt Rose attended the dedication at Mr. Braeunig's nursing home in Great Falls, MT. He is still a pretty chipper guy! There is hope for us all!!!
Broadview is about 15-miles south of the old MILW crossing at Slayton Jct., just west of Roundup.
Back to the original post, let's just hope if it comes to pass they don't actually call it the "North Coast Hiawatha", that name is synonymous with the poor service of Amtrak's early days. "North Coast Limited" would make more sense, and keep it from being confused with Amtrak's current Chicago to Milwaukee "Hiawatha" service.
I
wjstix Back to the original post, let's just hope if it comes to pass they don't actually call it the "North Coast Hiawatha", that name is synonymous with the poor service of Amtrak's early days. "North Coast Limited" would make more sense, and keep it from being confused with Amtrak's current Chicago to Milwaukee "Hiawatha" service.
I like that idea.
Old Northern Pacific names, North Coast (anything) and Mainstreeter ("Mainstreet of the Pacific Northwest"), just don't do justice to the route. Likewise, a reference to either Dakota or Montana is insufficient. Lewis & Clark would be awkward and irrelevant to North Dakota. Western Star is a good Great Northern name, heritage aside; but still ambiguous. Northern Star, Northern Lights, Northern Plains, Northern Trail, and Northern Passage would seem to be more appropriate.
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