CSSHEGEWISCH Also keep in mind that the passenger fares in 1957 were kept lower by regulators who implied an internal cross-subsidy of passenger service by higher freight rates.
Also keep in mind that the passenger fares in 1957 were kept lower by regulators who implied an internal cross-subsidy of passenger service by higher freight rates.
The ICC did a massive study of rail passenger train deficits in 1958 based largely on 1957 operating results. I no longer have a copy but, as I recall, they calculated that the national passenger deficit for 1957 was $650,000,000. That equates to about $2 billion in current dollars.
henry6One of the problems too many passenger rail advocates and the general public has is thinking passenger trains, services, and technologies from past centuries rather than the capablities of today and of the future.
No kidding. You guys clubbed me when I remarked about Newark-NYP connections earlier. Lighten up.
IN 1958, I traveled on BBN Cambridge MA business to New York, Chicago, Princeton NJ, and return to Boston-Cambridge. One ticket with multiple blocks did it. By that time the PRR and NYC had agreed on round-trips tickets going one way on one railroad and returning on the either, lucky me. So it was roomette in the Owl from Boston to NY, the 20th Century to Chicago, the Broadway to North Philadelphia, a clocker to Trenton with a parlor seat, an MP-54 mu local to Princeton Jc., a free round trip on the two-car MP-54 shuttle, another MP-54 ride to Penn Station, then the next day the Merchants Limited GCT to Boston. One ticket did it all.
That trip was my first in Mountain View. Much later I owned a small share of the car!
Deggesty I doubt that it would be practicable for two or more roads to arrange such transfer arrangements as the Long Island has at Jamaica, where many who make transfers can walk through the vestibules of other trains as they go from their incoming trains to their outgoing trains. This certainly calls for tight scheduling and running. Johnny
I doubt that it would be practicable for two or more roads to arrange such transfer arrangements as the Long Island has at Jamaica, where many who make transfers can walk through the vestibules of other trains as they go from their incoming trains to their outgoing trains. This certainly calls for tight scheduling and running.
Johnny
Well, you don't always need a LIRR Jamaica. But you do need European style scheduling and discipline. Within the likes of NYP you could easily make 10 minute transfers (note: passenger must know what track he is arriving on and which track his connection if departing from; build into system) or schedule more conveneint transfer locations like Newark, Trenton or Philadelphia or other multi platform locations; or longer platforms with two "blocks" so that more than one train can occupy the station track. Again, we've can't get bogged down in choo choo training like in 1900 but think what we need to accomplish for tomorrow.
RIDEWITHMEHENRY is the name for our almost monthly day of riding trains and transit in either the NYCity or Philadelphia areas including all commuter lines, Amtrak, subways, light rail and trolleys, bus and ferries when warranted. No fees, just let us know you want to join the ride and pay your fares. Ask to be on our email list or find us on FB as RIDEWITHMEHENRY (all caps) to get descriptions of each outing.
henry6Future: bar coded cards swiped by a hand held wand that reads the ticket and accepts or rejects it.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
Let's not get bogged down in our past of mile long tickets with coupons and stubs. Future: bar coded cards swiped by a hand held wand that reads the ticket and accepts or rejects it. You buy a ticket which is barcoded for the trains and trips you will take and leaves your trail in a computer to sort out. OR the other side of the coin is that since we might be operating a regional rail network, what difference does it make since the accounting will all be done in one office anyway? Union rules?: negotiate them. Equipment usage?: its the regional railroad's railroad to utilize as needed. And even if, say, the Long Island Railroad were not integrated into the "Regional Railroad", why couldn't it participate by using a compatable computer system. I'm not talking Jamaica Station here, but through trains or efficient, usable connections. The future is definetly "not your father's Oldsmobile"! One of the problems too many passenger rail advocates and the general public has is thinking passenger trains, services, and technologies from past centuries rather than the capablities of today and of the future.
henry6 But having to buy more than one ticket at more than one location, or having to wait (more than, say,10 minutes) for a connection,
Would the various carriers consider interline tickets such as you could buy, even into the Amtrak era until Amtrak worked its own tariffs out? In the late winter of 1972, I bought, in Birmingham, a round trip ticket to the West Coast which, of course, took me over several roads, and the ticket was constructed just as it would have been constructed before 4/30/71 (a round trip to San Francisco, with no coupon reading to or from San Francisco since I rode the train from Los Angeles to Seattle). The cost was the same as it would hve been if I had gone directly from Chicago to San Francisco and back, and I had a side trip to San Diego and back at no cost.
DeggestytimzIn 1951 PRR ran 20+ commute trains a day out of Suburban Station that terminated in Wilmington. And, they were still running in 1958. The May, 1968 issue of the Guide shows PC commuter service between Philadephia and other places but not between Philadelphia and WIlmington. Johnny
timzIn 1951 PRR ran 20+ commute trains a day out of Suburban Station that terminated in Wilmington.
And, they were still running in 1958. The May, 1968 issue of the Guide shows PC commuter service between Philadephia and other places but not between Philadelphia and WIlmington.
henry6Only has SEPTA gone as far south as Wilmington with commuter service, the PRR never did.
Marketing situations be it city pairs or interline ticketing are all part of the regional concept. Make it easy and economical to use and it will be used. But having to buy more than one ticket at more than one location, or having to wait (more than, say,10 minutes) for a connection, or inconveniet schedules to the traffic needs are some things that would spell trouble for such an operation.
henry6South of Philly is quiet different. Only has SEPTA gone as far south as Wilmington with commuter service, the PRR never did. Up to then, Wilmington was intercity, thus Amtrak service. Also, Philadelphia- Wilmington-Baltimore-Washington are very close together compared to what we discuss as long distances elsewhere. MARC pretty much covers commuter on both Corridor and CSX for Baltimore and Washington DC services. In fact the Corridor is very tight NY-Newark, New Brunswick, Trenton, Philadelphia and south. Amtrak gave up on the old Clocker service between Philadelphia and NY which was taken over by NJT but only east (north) of Trenton. One of my many opinions has been that there should be a regional approach to rail passenger services in areas like this. Basically here for instance: New Haven CT and Poughkeepsie and Albany through NYP to at least Philadelphia and then Philadelphia to Harrisburg and Philadelphia to Richmond VA. I could see a "through" train (equipment, schedule, ticketing--perhaps even crews) from Philadelphia to New Haven with tight or very reasonable connections to everywhere at NYP (for NJT, LIRR, MNRR) and even Secaucus Jct.(NJT); likewise at Philadelphia (for SEPTA and Amtrak) and Stamford, So. Norwalk and Bridgeport (for MNRR-CONDOT) and New Haven (for Shore Line East and Amtrak). What I am getting at is a cohesive regional system with reliability and schedules that serves the intraregional needs of the passengers while utilizing the plant, equipment, and labor in the most economical manner.
South of Philly is quiet different. Only has SEPTA gone as far south as Wilmington with commuter service, the PRR never did. Up to then, Wilmington was intercity, thus Amtrak service. Also, Philadelphia- Wilmington-Baltimore-Washington are very close together compared to what we discuss as long distances elsewhere. MARC pretty much covers commuter on both Corridor and CSX for Baltimore and Washington DC services. In fact the Corridor is very tight NY-Newark, New Brunswick, Trenton, Philadelphia and south. Amtrak gave up on the old Clocker service between Philadelphia and NY which was taken over by NJT but only east (north) of Trenton.
One of my many opinions has been that there should be a regional approach to rail passenger services in areas like this. Basically here for instance: New Haven CT and Poughkeepsie and Albany through NYP to at least Philadelphia and then Philadelphia to Harrisburg and Philadelphia to Richmond VA. I could see a "through" train (equipment, schedule, ticketing--perhaps even crews) from Philadelphia to New Haven with tight or very reasonable connections to everywhere at NYP (for NJT, LIRR, MNRR) and even Secaucus Jct.(NJT); likewise at Philadelphia (for SEPTA and Amtrak) and Stamford, So. Norwalk and Bridgeport (for MNRR-CONDOT) and New Haven (for Shore Line East and Amtrak). What I am getting at is a cohesive regional system with reliability and schedules that serves the intraregional needs of the passengers while utilizing the plant, equipment, and labor in the most economical manner.
Other ideas:
henry6 South of Philly is quiet different. Only has SEPTA gone as far south as Wilmington with commuter service, the PRR never did. Up to then, Wilmington was intercity, thus Amtrak service. Also, Philadelphia- Wilmington-Baltimore-Washington are very close together compared to what we discuss as long distances elsewhere. MARC pretty much covers commuter on both Corridor and CSX for Baltimore and Washington DC services. In fact the Corridor is very tight NY-Newark, New Brunswick, Trenton, Philadelphia and south. Amtrak gave up on the old Clocker service between Philadelphia and NY which was taken over by NJT but only east (north) of Trenton. One of my many opinions has been that there should be a regional approach to rail passenger services in areas like this. Basically here for instance: New Haven CT and Poughkeepsie and Albany through NYP to at least Philadelphia and then Philadelphia to Harrisburg and Philadelphia to Richmond VA. I could see a "through" train (equipment, schedule, ticketing--perhaps even crews) from Philadelphia to New Haven with tight or very reasonable connections to everywhere at NYP (for NJT, LIRR, MNRR) and even Secaucus Jct.(NJT); likewise at Philadelphia (for SEPTA and Amtrak) and Stamford, So. Norwalk and Bridgeport (for MNRR-CONDOT) and New Haven (for Shore Line East and Amtrak). What I am getting at is a cohesive regional system with reliability and schedules that serves the intraregional needs of the passengers while utilizing the plant, equipment, and labor in the most economical manner.
And remember, the Poughkeepsie High Bridge (the New Haven's Maybrook Line) still stands, now being converted to "A Walk Over The Hudson" tourist location. A hundred years ago the bridge, then doubled tracked, was used for passenger service to points south bypassing New York City. With the coming of heavy freight service to the west, the bridge was single tracked and reinforced for the NH type L1, 2-10-2 Santa Fe Class locomotives.
Don U. TCA 73-5735
But short trip riders south of Philadelphia are encouraged to balance the load north of Phily.
Oltmannd, the discouragement of commuter-style rides makes sense. Thanks for the tip, I think I understand it now.
Is the train crew able to check every single passenger for tickets between New York and Newark?
A group of Columbia University law students and a group of Columbia University engineering students are travelling to Philly by train for conferences in their respective fields, which happen to be taking place the same weekend. The law students buy themselves tickets on the Acela at considerable expensive, but they find out that the group of engineering students has only one ticket among them.
The would-be lawyers ask the engineering students "what is going on?" and they are told "watch and learn."
The conductor comes through the train car and asks "tickets please!", and each law student has to offer up a ticket. The engineering students are nowhere to be found, but the conductor knocks on an occupied bathroom door, "tickets please!", and one hand is thrust out holding a ticket, a ticket which the conductor takes and then punches.
For the return trip, the law students think they have this figured out so they only buy one ticket for the group. This time, the engineering students don't have any ticket or tickets, and the law students are somewhat puzzled.
The law students board the train, and when they hear the conductor making rounds, they cram themselves into the nearest toilet compartment. Soon they hear the call, "tickets please!", and one hand thrusts out of the door offering up a ticket . . .
If GM "killed the electric car", what am I doing standing next to an EV-1, a half a block from the WSOR tracks?
aegrotatioI'll add to the outrage. If you are a VRE ticket holder you may have the privilege to use Amtrak on the same routes for a "$10 Step-Up Ticket."I'm sorry but what is that $10 for? It's extortion and if nothing comes out of Obama's newfound railroad empathy it better be LOWER fares on Amtrak or none of this matters to anyone.My wife is still bitter about the Amtrak fare.
I'll add to the outrage. If you are a VRE ticket holder you may have the privilege to use Amtrak on the same routes for a "$10 Step-Up Ticket."
I'm sorry but what is that $10 for? It's extortion and if nothing comes out of Obama's newfound railroad empathy it better be LOWER fares on Amtrak or none of this matters to anyone.
My wife is still bitter about the Amtrak fare.
First, it was Northeast Regional.
Second, the amazing amount of negative and harsh opinions you guys responded with is a good part of the reason people say they like trains but never ride them.
Did you make a Reservation and pick up your ticket before boarding? Do you have to have a ticket with your name on it? (Security) Everybody on an Acela must have a ticket, "crew tag", or contractor's form to ride, they know who you are.
Is this what you get when you ride in "low cost Commuter Rail"? Is your Commuter Rail train always clean? Can you plug in your laptop or I-Pod at your seat? Then there is food and drinks.
AMTRAK
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
Along with henry6's comments, sometimes company's will charge a high price for something they really don't want to sell. A seat sold at Newark might preempt a more lucrative longer distance fare from being sold? To base pricing solely on cost is to invite failure.
Obama has nothing to do with this; fares, tariffs, etc. were set up by the railroads long ago based on cost of service(s) provided. It cost more to operate a long distance style train than a commuter train. Amtrak is not NJT nor VRE, therefore costs from crews to equipment to charterd needs are different. Some reasons are grandfathered back to the original railroads involved, others are fashioned by neccessity, but no one is trying to screw you or anybody else. It has always been part of the rail passenger business and always will be. Services are designed, marketed, and priced for what they are and what is needed for a return. American supposedly never had a class system like in Europe, but by market pricing it was done. A coach seat on the all stop all day rattler should be a lot cheaper than on the one stop limited that takes only two hours point to point...that's marketing and operations. If you're annoyed, that's your problem, not the carrier's.
C'mon. Everybody is writing about the same thing and nit-picking. I still think the fare from Newark to Penn Station is outrageous; but I agree that there should be some differential.
The chief issue is opportunity: why not let Amtrak supplement NJT and Path if it saves some time waiting or let's one feel like a captain of indusry? Unsold and up-line no-show space could be released for sale 15-30 minutes before departure from the boarding station. This will not turn away the longer, higher revenue passengers. Why not be more reasonable with the fares with this control and maybe actually make more money from more riders?
Lets review: The Acela is First Class and Business Class only, no Coach Class. The Acela is a Limited (stop) train. You can not compare an Amtrak Region Coach Fare to the Acela. In the Northeast Corridor, all trains are Reserved Trains (on the Acela, exact seats are not assigned but they will not sell more tickets than seats, no standing allowed). If you want to buy a Reserved seat from Newark NJ to NY City, maybe, if it is allowed by territory jurisdiction rules between Amtrak and NJ Transit.
In 1971, the Railroads were bleeding red ink. Forget about PRR, they had gone into the backrupt PennCentral. They were doing things wrong. Congress set up a National Rail Passenger Corporation, service mark Amtrak, to relieve the nation's railroads of its money losing Interstate and Long Distance Passenger Service. Short haul and commuter service was left up to the cities and the states. To name a few, Massachusetts Bay Transportation Authority (MBTA), New Jersey Transit (NJT), Metropolian Transportation Authority (MTA), Metro North Commuter Rail (MNCR). Each is highly subsidized by state and local government as a needed service. It's up to the State or city, or both, to decide how many trains, how often to run them, and how many seats need to be subsidized and to what level of cash per seat.
Operating at a deficit, with congress debating your losses, Amtrak must charge a more realistic fare. You can not compare a poorly subsidized Amtak train with a fully subsidized Commuter Rail. No question, if Congress wanted to pay Amtrak to reduce fares in competiton with New Jersy Transit, they could, they won't.
Not only would the Broadway not take NY-Newark passengers, but for most of its postwar PRR history, it would not take NY - NPhili, NY - Paolis, or NY - Lancaster passengers. It would take NY - Harrisburg passengers. Some of the other long-dsitance trains out of NYPenn would take NY - Paoli, but not shorter trips. Others did everything. During much of this period I had projects in and around Lancaster, well into the Amtrak era through the time the Broadway made its last run. When I felt the client could afford it and when it was appropriate because of the opportunity to use a dictating machine in private or otherwise turn travel time into productive time, and of course enjoy the best dining car experience the Pennsy could offer, I would plan on returning from Lancaster on the Broadway. I would simply buy a first-class round-trip NY - Harrisburg ticket, a roomette reservation on the return, and use the ticket to and from Lancaster. I didn't have any problems in doing this. The last time I did this, a few days before the Broadway's last run, when I boarded, the conductor said:
David, your roomette is already occupied, but there are four (railfan) friends of yours going to NY from Chicago in Bedrooms C and D, and they are expecting you to join them.
And I've had my Amtrak tickets lifted by Spuyten Devil and Hell Gate in the past couple of years. But on NJT about a month ago I got trips from Morristown to Dover and Denville to Dover without the ticket taken. On the same trains, I saw about a half dozen or more also ride without a fare being accounted for.
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