In the latest issue of PTJ they propose splitting the Sunset into two trains the first would operate Los Angeles to Dallas reopening the line to Phoenix and east of Sierra Blanca follow the old T&P route now UP to Dallas. This certainly makes sense as far as population goes. The proposed west Texas route has not had passenger service since the sixties. The Chicago - San Antonio Texas Eagle that operates via Dallas could be a connection in Dallas. The Heartland Flyer could be extended to Houston providing that city with Amtrak service. The train they propose east of Dalla to New Orleans and on to Orlando they call the Cajun King. First I would change that name to Cajun Queen for Big Bad John the steel driving man. The proposed routing would take the new train to Shreveport, Alexandria and Baton Rouge via the KCS route that has not seen passenger train service since 1970. From New Orleans the train would follow the same route as earlier to Orlando. This would make Dallas a hub city for the Heartland Flyer, Texas Eagle, Sunset and Cajun (Queen). If Amtrak wanted to continue through cars from the Texas Eagle to Los Angeles certainly Dallas would make it much easier. PTJ has even proposed scheduling for the trains that make far more sense than the present schedule. I ride the Sunset at least twice a year and have for some time. It makes sense the changes proposed by PTJ , now if they can only find the equipment to make it a daily train each way. With Dallas as the hub and the arrival and departure times of the Sunset and Cajun Queen schedules as PTJ proposes the arriving Cajun Queen equipment could operate as the deapting Sunset and the same holds true for eastbound.
I think they came up with a well thought out proposal that deserves Amtraks attention.
Al - in - Stockton
I sent a somewhat similar proposal to Alex Kummant approximately two years ago. I also included a schedule for the proposed changes.
My proposal recommended discontinuing the Sunset Limited and implementing the following changes:
One advantage of my proposal would be better service for west Texas, as well as more convenient train times in Oklahoma City, San Antonio, Memphis, Tucson and Phoenix, offset by less convenient times in Little Rock and El Paso, although the LIttle Rock times would not be much worse than the current situation. Also, these changes would require little if any new equipment. The equipment devoted to the Sunset would be freed up for use on the extended Texas Eagle and City of New Orleans.
The biggest disadvantage would be discontinuance of no change service between LA and NO, although I am not sure how many passengers would be inconvenienced. Through passengers would have to go via Fort Worth and stay over night in SA. This, by the way, is the case for through passengers between points west of SA and Eagle points north of SA.
Amtrak's Vice President of Operations sent me a nice reply, stating in a nutshell that Amtrak was looking at a variety of schedule changes in Texas. I took his reply to mean that it was not going to do anything.
I subsequently learned that similar proposals have been made from a variety of sources for years. To date they have fallen on deaf ears; Amtrak is a government bureaucracy that is very slow to change. In its defense, every time it wants to make a significant service change, it faces a political firestorm.
I commented in another thread that the High Speed Rail plan map I have seen does not make sense in Texas and Florida:
http://www.fra.dot.gov/Downloads/RRdev/hsrmap.pdf
There is a network from Montreal to Jacksonville, but no connection to South Florida and Houston is isolated from the rest of Texas. It almost seems that this plan avoids tapping into the trillion dollars Americans spend on vacation travel every year. I suspect politics: the plan avoids disrupting the airlines' dominance in the South Florida market, and keeps the Texas travellers' dollars in Texas.
"Make no little plans; they have no magic to stir men's blood." Daniel Burnham
Sam1 I sent a somewhat similar proposal to Alex Kummant approximately two years ago. I also included a schedule for the proposed changes. My proposal recommended discontinuing the Sunset Limited and implementing the following changes: Run the Texas Eagle to Los Angeles via Fort Worth, Abilene, Midland/Odessa and El Paso. From El Paso the train would follow the route of the Sunset Limited. This would bring service to west Texas cities with a combined population of more than 350,000, whereas the Sunset serves southwest Texas cities with a combined population of approximately 45,000. Buses could provide connecting service to Del Rio from San Antonio and to Alpine from Midland/Odessa. Extend the Heartland Flyer from Fort Worth to San Antonio. Change the schedule to provide for convenient connections with the Eagle in Fort Worth. This would also necessitate a change in the schedule of the Eagle, with an earlier departure time from Chicago. Extend the City of New Orleans from the Crescent City to San Antonio, thereby providing a daily day train from NO to SA. Or run a daily coach only train from NO to San Antonio if extending the City of New Orleans would not be practicable. One advantage of my proposal would be better service for west Texas, as well as more convenient train times in Oklahoma City, San Antonio, Memphis, Tucson and Phoenix, offset by less convenient times in Little Rock and El Paso, although the LIttle Rock times would not be much worse than the current situation. Also, these changes would require little if any new equipment. The equipment devoted to the Sunset would be freed up for use on the extended Texas Eagle and City of New Orleans. The biggest disadvantage would be discontinuance of no change service between LA and NO, although I am not sure how many passengers would be inconvenienced. Through passengers would have to go via Fort Worth and stay over night in SA. This, by the way, is the case for through passengers between points west of SA and Eagle points north of SA. Amtrak's Vice President of Operations sent me a nice reply, stating in a nutshell that Amtrak was looking at a variety of schedule changes in Texas. I took his reply to mean that it was not going to do anything. I subsequently learned that similar proposals have been made from a variety of sources for years. To date they have fallen on deaf ears; Amtrak is a government bureaucracy that is very slow to change. In its defense, every time it wants to make a significant service change, it faces a political firestorm.
I remember you talking about changes to the Sunset in the forums before now that I think about it. The fifth largest growth area in the US Phoenix is without direct rail service and I can still remember when it was served directly. This situation has to be remedied. The connecting bus service is not well patronized and I doubt many people in Phoenix even know it exists.
Here in California there was an announcement on Friday that the first 10 billion in HSR bonds are finally beginning to sell. For Stockton this will mean many new jobs as the former location where the new East Bay Bridge sections were constructed will be used for HSR bridge and viaduct construction and the concrete will also come into the Port of Stockton. It is a very modern facility in whiche sections can be built and transferred to either truck or barge for shipment to other parts of the state. There is also a transload from trucks to rail just east of Stockton on the BNSF. As much as they talk about initial construction of the HSR being along the Bay from San Francisco to Gilroy there seems to be more talk of it going through the Valley first now between Modesto and Bakersfield, with that section opening first. There is still much bickering about the route along the bay especially through Palo Alto, this will probably end in the courts. So it looks like they are planning to complete the valley first.
The PTJ proposal had several pluses especially the restoration of connections at LA Union Station. for Palmdale and the Coast Starlight. Also gives possibility of express service Dallas - FTW to supplement TRE. I've not been to Dallas for several years so this comment may not be a problem. When the trains are not running on time there is the potential for 6 AMTRAK trainsets to be in Dallas at the same time. 1 - Sunset, 1 - Cajon King, 2 - Texas Eagles, 2 Heartland flyers; + any TRE train sets?. Can the tracks at Dallas Union Station handle that kind of traffic even with mid platform crossovers installed and also where and how much time would it take to wye two trains (Cajun and Sunset) ( proposal is to turn those two in Dallas; could some trains arrive nose to nose) ?
The minus are the loss of LA/ New Orleans to intermediate Texas citys (SAT, HOU the big ones) without a supplementary coach only train. Another is the loss of any connections to the Cresent in New Orleans (west bound 12 minute proposed connection). However a bus between BTR and Slidell might be a possibility however a 4 AM connection east bound would not please passengers. The real big minus is the lack of AMTRAK equipment. Until the 25 new single level dinning cars are delivered the present AMFLEET food service to Amfleet coach conversions cannot be started. The 130 Bi-level car building to release other Horizon and Amfleet short distance cars is another impediment.
Lost in all of this seems to be a discussion of restoring service between New Orleans and Florida.
Right now, Florida is isolated from the rest of the Amtrak system -- you pretty much have to go to Washington, D.C. before you can easily connect to any other region of the country.
Originally, we had the South Wind, and later, the Floridian giving us a direct connection to Chicago and access to the Southwest, West and Northwest from there. The Floridian was killed in 1979, and we were isolated again for nearly two decades. Then the Sunset Limited was extended to Florida in 1993, and we gained a connection to the rest of the nation, albeit an imperfect one, through New Orleans. We lost that connection again with Hurricane Katrina, and despite the fact that Amtrak never went through the public process required of them to discontinue the route, and the fact that the CSX main line involved has been repaired and greatly improved since Katrina, the service has never been restored.
I have no opinion on splitting the Sunset Limited. But I strongly agree with the National Association of Railroad Passengers that service between Florida and New Orleans must be restored, and I would also join them in advocating restoration of a direct connection between Florida and Chicago.
passengerfan Another proposal suggests operating east of Billings over the former Milwaukee road line via Aberdeen, South Dakota thus giving that state its first Amtrak service.
Another proposal suggests operating east of Billings over the former Milwaukee road line via Aberdeen, South Dakota thus giving that state its first Amtrak service.
Please, leave us out of this idea. That line serves the least populated portion of a not very populated state. Montana is welcome to do whatever they are willing to pay for -- a detail that the Senator who has been beating this drum conveniently forgets to mention. If they want an eastern connection to the national system, Williston ND is the logical place to establish it.
This sounds like a great idea. It always helps to run into larger city areas to pick up more passengers.
Whatever leads to more ridership is OK with me.
Another good reason to terminate the Sunset and run a Cajun Queen east of there to Orlando is cleanliness. By the time todays train reaches San Antonio it needs a more thorough cleaning than the onboard crews seem capable of. As a frequent rider I have to give this train an E for cleanliness east of El Paso to New Orleans. The Sunset Coast Starlight and California Zephyr are dirty trains on the inside by the time they reach there destinations. The EB and Southwest Chief are both clean trains throughout there trips. Cleanest long distance train in North America the Canadian. Maybe its because they have a crew change and thorough cleaning each way in Winnipeg.
The August 2009 Trains mentions eliminating the Sunset Limited, and replacing it with a daily Chicago to Los Angeles Texas Eagle. There would be "a train with a connecting coach and diner-lounge between San Antonio, Texas and New Orleans. (p. 20)."
Florida might get a through train from Chicago, a separate train from New Orleans, or "a return to pre-Katrina service."
Maglev The August 2009 Trains mentions eliminating the Sunset Limited, and replacing it with a daily Chicago to Los Angeles Texas Eagle. There would be "a train with a connecting coach and diner-lounge between San Antonio, Texas and New Orleans. (p. 20)." Florida might get a through train from Chicago, a separate train from New Orleans, or "a return to pre-Katrina service."
I'll believe it when I see it.
A day train between San Antonio and New Orleans makes some sense, as does a day train from New Orleans to Jacksonville. But extending the Sunset Limited to Florida, as advocated by some people, does not make any sense. There are not many people who will get up in the middle of the night to catch a passenger train. And this is when the Sunset serviced many of the communities between New Orleans and Jacksonville.
Oh well, I would mostly miss the name Sunset Limited, which is a classic. It's also the oldest name train in America... more history bites the dust in the name of Texas. Lone Star connotes coyotes howling in the night; Sunset Limited connotes a special romantic evening.
But the reasoning presented in Trains, involving equipment and crew usage, sounds logical; and all segments could benefit from day trains. Also, I found the Chicago-Texas-Los Angeles routing to be very enjoyable in 1977; it really needs to run daily.
A run from Los Angeles to New Orleans would mean a layover of well mover 3 hours in Dallas.This would effictively kill any use of this train as a through route between LAX and NOL.
espeefoamer A run from Los Angeles to New Orleans would mean a layover of well mover 3 hours in Dallas.This would effictively kill any use of this train as a through route between LAX and NOL.
A 3 hour layover on a two DAY trip is a deal killer? Really?
A 3 hour layover between two 2 HOUR flights isn't.
Anybody desperate enought to need a three day a week train to go LA to NOL could certainly make do with SW Chief to City of New Orleans. Why, depending on the day of the week you left LA on the SW Chief, you could be to NOL faster than if you hung around and waited for the next Sunset.
Or, if time was a factor, you could just fly.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
Maglevor "a return to pre-Katrina service."
Pre-Katrina Sunset across the FL panhandle....
"woof, woof"
The Gulf Coast portion of the panhandle is a destination, but most people are travelling north-south to get there, not east-west. The rest of the panhandle is no better than rural GA or lower Alabama. The Sunset was way too slow to be a meaningful "connect the dots" train between Jax, Pensicola, Mobile and NOL.
"It needed killin"
oltmanndMaglevor "a return to pre-Katrina service." Pre-Katrina Sunset across the FL panhandle.... "woof, woof" The Gulf Coast portion of the panhandle is a destination, but most people are travelling north-south to get there, not east-west. The rest of the panhandle is no better than rural GA or lower Alabama. The Sunset was way too slow to be a meaningful "connect the dots" train between Jax, Pensicola, Mobile and NOL. "It needed killin"
Actually, when I lived in Lake City, Fla., the Sunset was the ideal way to get to New Orleans. You left Lake City late in the afternoon, and arrived in New Orleans early in the morning. On the return, you left New Orleans late at night and arrived in Lake City the following afternoon/evening (depending on whether or not the train was late). It was more comfortable and less stressful than driving to NOL on I-10, and there was no direct way to fly to NOL, even out of Jacksonville. You had to fly to Atlanta and catch a connecting flight to NOL, usually with a long layover.
As for being a "connect the dots" route, the big dot which needs connecting is Florida to the Midwest and West. Right now, you have to go to the Northeast to get anywhere from Florida. The Sunset wasn't an ideal connection, but it was better than what we have now.
The Sunset Florida connection didn't need killin' -- it needed improvin'. On-time performance, average speed and frequency of service were all issues, yes, but those were issues which could have been addressed (and hopefully will be system-wide now that we have an Amtrak-friendly administration in Washington).
Bill
A few thoughts about the Sunset Route: It was not included in the sixteen preliminary route selections announced during the planning for Amtrak leading up to May 1, 1971. I would not be surprised if its inclusion in the final system was payback to SP for its general downgrading of the train and attempts at discontinuance during the mid to late 1960's. I don't think it has been on a daily schedule since about 1969, which makes me question why Amtrak hasn't attempted to discontinue it unless politics has reared its ugly head.
On todays Trains News Wire:
"...The three options would be to run the train as an extension of the triweekly Los Angeles-New Orleans Sunset Limited, as an extension of the daily Chicago-New Orleans City of New Orleans, or as a daily stand-alone train..."
The Sunset was scheduled 18 hours for 780 miles from New Orleans to Orlando. The City of New Orleans currently arrives at 3:32 pm and departs at 1:45 pm, putting Orlando times at about 10 am arrival and 7 pm departure (I think I'm screwing up the time-zone adjustment; please check these numbers).
MaglevThe Sunset was scheduled 18 hours for 780 miles from New Orleans to Orlando. The City of New Orleans currently arrives at 3:32 pm and departs at 1:45 pm, putting Orlando times at about 10 am arrival and 7 pm departure (I think I'm screwing up the time-zone adjustment; please check these numbers).
I am not sure; what dwell times in New Orleans are you allowing? Remember, that when eastbound you add one hour for each time zone boundary you cross, and when westbound you subtract one hour for each boundary you cross.
Johnny
However the time works out, the train is REALLY slow. I did not include New Orleans dwell, but there was a long stop at Pascagoula or Pensacola or somewhere, and the schedules are usually padded before the last stop. Two nights from Chicago to Florida is only for the adventurous. One night from New Orleans to Florida shouldn't be necessary...
Maglev One night from New Orleans to Florida shouldn't be necessary...
Remember that the Gulf Wind, which had the fastest schedule between Jacksonville and New Orleans, was an overnight train--617 miles in 15:20 going west and 14:45 going east. The dwell time shown in the timetables totaled 40 minutes wb and 30 minutes eb. These times are from the April, 1955 Guide. At that time, the territory was dark between Baldwin and Flomaton (394 miles)
Johnny.
CSSHEGEWISCHI don't think it has been on a daily schedule since about 1969,
I at last was able to get to my Guides and timetables (we were away from home until yesterday). The April, 1970 Guide shows daily service on the Sunset, Overland, and Shasta routes. The next issue I have, October, 1970, shows tri-weekly service on all three, with coaches only on the Sunset. The Southern timetable dated August 12, 1970, shows the Southern Crescent with daily service all the way to New Orleans, with all equipment terminating/originating at New Orleans. The Southern timetable dated November 20, 1970, shows a through Pullman NY-LA, and the Southern Crescent operating Birmingham-New Orleans only three days a week. With the inauguration of the NY-LA (later, for a time, under Amtrak, Boston-LA) sleeper, the SP provided dining service as well as the automat car.
Just an aside here: the reduction of SP's Sunset from daily to 3-times-a-week was simultaneous with the addition of the sleeping car, which at some point SR started carrying through to Washington, D.C.
As I recall, the addition of this sleeper was part of the deal (between the regulators and The Friendly) to permit the reduction of service from daily to thrice-weekly.
I still like my idea of keeping the Eagle on its present schedule in and out of Chicago with the Sunset connection in Dallas (or Fort Worth?). This puts the Sunset into Arizona at a civilized time of the day, morning service from Midland to Fort Worth-Dallas and a mid-afternoon return.
The Sunset would operate overnight between New Orleans and Houston with a morning departure to Dallas-Fort Worth by way of Waco and College Station and a mid-afternoon return to Houston. This affords a couple hours between the wb Crescent and Sunset; but eastbound would still require an overnight stay. A second regional train departing in the morning from Dallas-Fort Worth to Houston and returning in the evening would balance the service.
By continuing the Heartland Flyer to Austin and San Antonio, connections from the wb Eagle and from the eb Heartland would require a layover. A separate round trip with only a few hours layover would seem to work better than a through service until more trains may be put on. Two additional round trips may be desirable between Dallas and San Antonio in this populous corridor with Fort Worth, Waco, and Austin. One r/t might be extended to Corpus Christi and Brownsville requiring two sets of trains.
A separate day train between Fort Worth and New Orleans through Shreveport may be feasible; but this seems to be a more parochial desire and regional need reqiring overnight stays for connections.
I don’t remember the exact date that the SP and the Southern began cooperating in the operation of a through sleeper between the east coast and LA, even though I was then living about thirty miles west of the route; I can only quote from the timetables as I did in my post yesterday. Today, I was looking at the Southern timetables I have, and noted the timetable dates of the extension of the service to Boston.
October 1970: no through service, with coaches only on the Sunset; three day a week service.
11/20/70: through service NY-LA, with a diner on the Sunset.
11/14/71: through sleeper Boston-LA, through coach and sleeper Boston-Birmingham, through coach Boston-NO and Boston-Atlanta (these cars to/from Boston provided the through service east of Washington; there were also through cars Washington-Atlanta, Birmingham, & NO).
11/1/72: through service to/from Boston had been discontinued, but through car NY-LA remained. The through sleeper was operated at least until the Superliner equipment was placed in service. I rode the NY-LA car from NO to LA in the spring of 1980; except for the coaches, which were former Santa Fé high-level cars, all of the equipment was single-level cars.
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