Why does Amtrak not serve Secaucus Junction?
It certainly skims by really closely to it.
Ya know, I was always wondering this too. Especially in such a busy area, you think that they would stop there, considering that they run straight through it.
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I believe that station is owned by New Jersey Transit which uses it as an interchage point for its various lines and Metro North West Shore service.
Tony
Up on "The D & H Bridge Line"
SJ's purpose is to transfer passengers on NJT's lines and not as a station with good outside access...although there is a small parking lot and bus lanes. It is owned and operated by NJT. Amtrak would not gain anything by stopping, like the PRR before it, dealing only with New York City and Newark.
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What you guys are saying is true, but if you put it that way, then why does Amtrak stop at Metropark?
Just some food for thought.
Metropark is more cosmopolitan, with more public access and accomodations, larger population base (the Meadows is poplulated by black snakes, woodchucks, ducks, geese, etc.) and no other rail junction or services than already available elsewhere. I don't think Metropark has really lived up to its expectations (my opinion, no basis in fact or statistics) but in riding through I see the lot pretty well filled. But can't descern if those in the lot are NJT commuters or Amtrak long distance passengers.
I don't accept the "It's NJT, why should they serve Amtrak" argument that gets thrown around on this and other forums. NJ and NY have accepted that they ought act regionally and I was confused by Secaucus' lack of Amtrak--I have since found out the logistical reasons why AMTK does not stop there even though it goes right through the building(!!).
For my own selfish interests, I am planning a trip to upstate NY. Secaucus is an ideal connection to all of NJT's commuter lines especially for points north and west, like the Bergen County/Metro-North Port Jervis line. For the NJT lines that terminate at Hoboken, you simply cannot reach them without a loopy 3-seat trip, whether transferring at Newark Penn Station or NY Penn Station. Not only that, it seems that most of NJT's lines are Hoboken which means terribly inconvenient for Amtrak riders.
aegrotatio I don't accept the "It's NJT, why should they serve Amtrak" argument that gets thrown around on this and other forums. NJ and NY have accepted that they ought act regionally and I was confused by Secaucus' lack of Amtrak--I have since found out the logistical reasons why AMTK does not stop there even though it goes right through the building(!!). For my own selfish interests, I am planning a trip to upstate NY. Secaucus is an ideal connection to all of NJT's commuter lines especially for points north and west, like the Bergen County/Metro-North Port Jervis line. For the NJT lines that terminate at Hoboken, you simply cannot reach them without a loopy 3-seat trip, whether transferring at Newark Penn Station or NY Penn Station. Not only that, it seems that most of NJT's lines are Hoboken which means terribly inconvenient for Amtrak riders.
I don't follow or agree with your post. NJT built Sec. Jct so that it could provide access to NYP for passengers from the former Erie lines to Suffern, Port Jervis, and Spring Valley. It is not part of Amtrak nor is it designed for any Amtrak application. Since all marketing and fares are based on NYP or Hoboken, and since Amtrak serves NYP, nobody would gain anything by stopping Amtrak at Sec. Jct.
As for your trip to Upstate NY. Either Hoboken to Sec. Jct (no change) to Port Jervis, Suffern, or Pascak Valley line trains. Or from NYP, a change of trains at Sec. Jct. for the same trains. From NYP, your connection to Amtrak, you can also get direct trains to Long Branch (change there for Bay Head), to Trenton, to Raritan and HIgh Bridge (change at Newark Penn), to Montclair (change there to Dover and Hackettstown), to Summit, to Gladstone, to Dover (change for points west to Hackettstown). From Hoboken you can go to Spring Valley, Waldwick, Suffern and Port Jervis with no change, direct to Montclair (and change for Dover and Hackettstown), direct to Summit, direct to Gladstone, direct to Dover (change for points west), direct to Hackettestown via Montclair to Dover or via Morristown to Dover,
The services and lines were designed for commuters going to and from NYC in a mentality that dates back to 1840! Still, today, it has to serve that same purpose and has had a hard time adapting to other riders' needs. You can get to all of the NJT services, except Atlantic City Line services, through Secaucus Jct. Where you start and where you are going will dictate how you use the Junction, if you have to use it at all. The fact is that most NJT services are directed toward NYP rather than Hoboken, And if you do want to ride out of Hoboken to Upstate NY, take the PATH to Hoboken; timing and costs are almost the same. But if you have never experienced Sec. Jct., do that instead. Or go out one way and back the other..
Don't worry, The poeple in Jersey and Upstate NY seem to have had a hard time adjusting to what Sec. Jct. really is!
Thanks Henry. I wish I could understand the timetables to know which trains go through Secaucus without requiring me to transfer.
Amtrak trains COULD stop at Secaucus Jct, but I think the issue is line capacity. There just isn't capacity to stop any more trains there during peak hours.
What benefit would an off-peak only Amtrak service be? It would probably be more confusing than helpful.
Secaucus Jct. tries to do for the "Erie side" trains what the "Kearny Connection" did for the "Lackawanna side" - make the trip to mid-town Manhattan fast and easy.
If the timetables are too tough (a hard thing for a railfan to admit ) try, NJT's itnerary planner
http://www.njtransit.com/sf/sf_servlet.srv?hdnPageAction=TripPlannerItineraryTo
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
Secaucus Jct. has no physical track connections. It is merely a station stop for NJT trains from NYP to the Coast Line, Trenton, Montclair, Summit, Gladstone, and Dover on the upper level and station stop for NJT trains from Hoboken to Spring Valley, Waldwick, Suffern and Port Jervis on the lower level and passenger must detrain and run up or downstairs (elevators, escelators) to catch a connecting train. There are parking spaces and bus accomodations so that people may board trains who have not come by train, but that part is minimal. Kearney Jct. on the other hand, is a track connection between the Morris and Essex lines and the Corridor with no station.
See the private messages I sent to you.
Oh, thanks for those.
We are travelling Amtrak to Newark Penn Station. Then we ride NJT via Secaucus Junction where we will be transferring to the Main/Bergen County/Port Jervis line to get to upstate NY.
OK...you could have rode to NYP and back out to SJ, but probably the Amtrak cost would have been much more...SJ to PJ is not a bad price...especially if you are 62 or over. It just occured to me: be sure to buy your NJT tickets at Newark and ask for tickets to Port Jervis not mentioning Sec. Jct. you will only be charged for Sec. Jct. (or NYP) to Port Jervis and not Newark to Sec. Jct. And remember on the return trip (ticket machine at PJ) to buy ticket to Newark Penn and get the same savings.
We'll be trying Newark Penn Station since we haven't used that station yet. The price is exactly the same for both and the train to Secaucus is, I think, 4 minutes or something. Our trips into New York Penn always seem to involve a delay to get into the tunnel--one time we held for 10 minutes.
Thanks for the tip about booking through to our stop on the PJ line!!
aegrotatio Why does Amtrak not serve Secaucus Junction? It certainly skims by really closely to it.
Why does Amtrak not serve Secaucus Junction? It certainly skims by really closely to it.
One word answer: Revenue! NJ Transit (not AMTRAK) built Secaucus for its own (read internal) purposes -- the Junction serves as NJ Transit's one transfer statewide rail hub. NJ Transit (not Amtrak) was able to begin construction only after overcoming the most intense lobbying from the tobacco, news and candy lobby, which saw its monopoly at Hoboken and other stations threatened, and which managed to delay project construction by at least ten years, more like fifteen. NJ Transit (not Amtrak) secured the financing to get the project started and completed. Finally, by changing trains at the Junction, a rider can take another NJ Transit train anywhere in New Jersey open to commuter rail service, and, most important, NJ TRANSIT POCKETS 100 PERCENT OF THE REVENUE. Why should New Jersey have to let Amtrak into its own sandbox? Why should New Jersey share its revenue with, or endure revenue dilution from, Amtrak --which has done nothing to construct, fund or otherwise assist in this project?
New Jersey is vary cagey about this sort of thing. To cite a non-rail example, drivers may be aware that I-95 --arguably the main highway for the US East Coast -- is not a through road in New Jersey. The highway enters the state near Tranton, near the spot where George Washington crossed the Delaware, and shortly afterwards, comes to a dead end -- well, not quite: a motorist pulls off onto mostly two-lane roads with lots of stop lights. The I-95 designation returns when one come to the approaches of the George Washington Bridge, crossing from the Jersey side across the Hudson to Manhattan. Why the gap? So that revenues from the parallel New Jersey Turnpike (a moneymaking toll road) are not compromised by a parallel no-toll stretch of interstate highway. Same for I-195, which begins in South Jersey, just north of the Delaware (River) Memorial Bridge, and peters out somewhere in Central New Jersey. No way will New Jersey allow either interstate to be completed, and threaten the revenue stream from the New Jersey Turnpike. Same with the Secausus Transfer -- no way will New Jersey allow Amtrak to make a passenger stop at that station, because it wants all the passenger revenue for itself.
Sooo, is NJ Transit greedy? Or merely acting in its own self-interest? Or both? I have my opinion. What, after reading this analysis, is yours?
billio NJ Transit (not Amtrak) was able to begin construction only after overcoming the most intense lobbying from the tobacco, news and candy lobby, which saw its monopoly at Hoboken and other stations threatened, and which managed to delay project construction by at least ten years, more like fifteen.
billio Sooo, is NJ Transit greedy? Or merely acting in its own self-interest? Or both? I have my opinion. What, after reading this analysis, is yours?
Billio: Been a while since I've lived there but really appreciate you refreshing memorys of that state (?). Your analysis of NJ helps us to understand the mess of the ARC (THE Tunnel).
I don't know what Billo means....NJT and Amtrak are two seperate entities with two seperate services. They do share the same facilities and tracks with NJT leasing from Amtrak (or whatever the arrangment). Sec Jct. was planned as, and is, a function of NJT rail operations with Amtrak never a part of the operation. Nothing to be suspicious about or troubled over. I don't understand his acerbic comments and charges. Sec. Jct. is what it is and what it is supposed to be!
Billio, I am not all that interested in the politics, but I can tell you one thing about I-95. It is not a through road because the residents sued it out of existence. When you travel Rte. 1 you can see the abandoned businesses along the road between towns where the interstate was supposed to be built.
I-95 was cancelled by the locals. It has nothing to do with the Turnpike. If that were actually true, then how do you explain toll-free I-295 which parallels the Turnpike all the way from the Delaware River to Camden?
And you're wrong about the I-95 designation. The I-95 designation and signage resumes precisely where I-195 joins the NJ Turnpike.
aegrotatio If that were actually true, then how do you explain toll-free I-295 which parallels the Turnpike all the way from the Delaware River to Camden?
The only explanation is stupidity. It would have been far better to expand the NJTP and never build I-295. The NJTP could have been integrated into NJ 42/AC Expressway/Walt Whitman Br, but it never was. I-295 was built during the era when tolls on the interstate system were verboten, so the parallel I-95 and I-295 were inked in on a map, even though the gas tax money collected on those roads would never, ever be able to cover cost of land aquisiton and construction
I-295s real purpose in life was to help real estate developers get rich by turning farm land into sub divisions. It is primarlly a Philadelphia commuter highway.
If you total the lanes available between the Del Mem Br and Geo Washington Br. on I-95, I-295/I-195 and the NJTP, There are 7 - 9 lanes between Delaware and Trenton and 6 or more from New Brunswick north. The bottle neck is betwen exit 7A and 8A were there are only 3 lanes.
One detects a bit of scepticism in this series of queries, so herewith a bit of history. Twenty or so years ago, NJ Transit rail passengers who did not live along the Northeast Corridor commuting to Manhattan (whom I exclude from this narrative) -- I think this would include riders from the Boonton, Gladstone, Montclair and M&E Lines, even the old Erie line up to Suffern, NY -- I don't recall these lines' formal names -- took the former EL into the Hoboken Terminal. Here they hopped a ferry -- or maybe changed cars to the PATH subway -- for the rest of their journey into Manhattan, because, one will recall, Hoboken was the end of the line. All those riders had to pass through Hoboken. At that time, there were no places to change trains on the NJ Transit system for entry/egress into Midtown Manhattan (Penn Station). Knowing this, and wishing to rectify it, New Jersey rail planners long advocated a high-speed connection (I do not recall its name at the moment) from the lines heading into Hoboken and the Northeast Corridor so the NJ Transit could pump more trains directly into Midtown from locales where the service was not offered, and urged construction of a transfer station at Secaucus where the lines that didn't connect directly with the NE corridor service could change cars just once and ride anywhere in New Jersey and elsewhere that NJ Transit's rail service tentacles extended. When and if implemented, of course, these proposed servcie changes could only put more riders directly into Midtown, and reroute them away from Hoboken.
Such potential changes in ridership habits threatened the livelihood of interests in Hoboken who operated the candy and tobacco concessions, who faced a potentially whopping (for them) loss of revenue. Needless to say, they opposed with great vigor any capital expanditures that would threaten their business. Since they paid tax and concession fees to some governmental entity(ies) in Hoboken, they no doubt secured the attention of elected politicians in that fine area.
A good friend who held a senior finance/accounting/budget position at NJ Transit (he worked at the Other Newark Sation -- not Newark Penn Station) casually related to me more than once -- and this had to have been a dozen years ago -- that these capital projects both for the junction and the Secausus Transfer had been proposed something like 20 years earlier, and until a couple of years before dirt (or mud -- this station lies in the midst of the Jersey swamps) began to be moved, that the projects had been blocked by the most intensive lobbying from certain interests which were heavily invested in maintaining the status quo. My friend, I hasten to add, had nothing to gain by lying to me and his position was senior enough so that he was well acquainted with the whys and wherefores behind the delay.
Sooo...who did it? I can't name names, because I don't know the players. Were they large campaign contributors? Who knows? Clearly they had the ear of politicians in and around Hoboken -- delay of that duration seldom occcurs without the intrusion of politics. It's worth considering that aside perhaps from Chicago, local politics in North Jersey have to be about as murky as they get in the US. And have been since the early 1800s. Could some of the elected and appointed officials have participated in the ownership of those concessions? I personally wouldn't bet against it. How did they get beat? My best guess: rush hour traffic got so bad that political pressure built up to the point that they couldn't delay the work any longer -- the opposition just just wore them down. But consider: if the concessions lobby delayed construction, say, ten years (to be conservat5ive), think how much more the concessionaires pocketed until addtional Midtown service began. Have the concessionaires (not sure I'd call them a trust) procured the rights to sell their wares at the Secuasus Transfer? Couldn't say for sure, but my guess is probably yep. But do they have the concession at New York Penn Station, and thereby managed to retain their original share of their market? Since we're crossing a state line, I'd guess probably not.
It's worth mentionning here that lobbying per se is neither anything new nor is it anything but an All-American sport. Many readers of these threads lobby hard for commuter and intercity rail -- for people whether they want it or not. Moreover, the clout that a small, well-organized lobby or interest group can exercise never ceases to amaze: the operating brotherhoods, to cite one related example, did a terrific job in holding up construction of the Northeast Corridor electrification -- New Haven to Boston -- literally for years. In a brilliant lobbying coup, word was spread that all that electricity in all those wires would give nearby residents brain cancer (this, by the way, from an MD city medical examiner in Connecticut who lives a stone's throw from the electrified lines. There is no way of determining where the rumor started, but in thinking who had most to gain, or lose, the railway brotherhoods seem like a good bet), which, predictably, guaranteed a vocal, emotional opposition to that work (the fact that, concurrently, there was no widely reported incidence of brain cancer along electrified railway lines elsewhere in the US nor in Japan or Europe implies little, if any, analysis by respondents coming out against the project, but no doubt that's just a statistically insignificant observation). Nobody said lobbying is fair, or that special interests have to tell the truth.
I am still not sure I follow everything Billo says...he wanders through long sentences and I get lost. However, there a few things. His cronology is off and his understanding of the way tihngs were before is not fully true. Yes, DL&W, and to a lesser extent the Erie, talked access to Manhatten for years but never had the wherewithal so settled for operating ferries and handing off to the Tubes, later PATH. It wasn't until NJT had control of all lines in the late 80s' that the DL&W lines, by that time EL or CR,, could be consdered to be able to connect to the Corridor. The idea of bringing the former EL lines in came next and thus Sec. Jct. MidTown Direct, as the service from the electrified DL&W/EL lines from Gladstone, Dover, and Montclair was dubbed, was a success well ahead of predictions and the need to bring the former ERIE/EL lines to the service became an important project leading to Sec. Jct. It was an attempt to alter passenger travlling patterns and was extremely successful. But what is also overlooked here is that in the overall scheme of things, there was, and still is, expected potential growth which have to be planned for now and not after the fact. NJT and NJDOT along with NYNJPA and its subsidiary components, along with local governments and agencies in NJ, have all been working on plans, some complimentry, some supplimentry, some at cross purposes I am sure. And if poltics, et al, doesn't happen, I would be surprised. Has any of which BIllo complains really been unexpected or has it stopped projects...and progress...from really happening? Am I saying turn your head, don't look, just let things happen? I don't mean to, I just mean that that is they way things are done and until Mr. Clean can be in charge, we aren't going to change the way things get done. Why didn't the DL&W or the Erie or the Lehigh Valley or the New York Central or the CNJ-B&O-RDG build a new set of tunnels? Not enough private money available to them. So it has been put off until now. And it has be be done now because there is a growing set of needs that have to be met so that all private enterprise can prospour in the NY-NJ Metropolitan area. Politics is the price we've always paid.
My trip went very smoothly. We alighted Amtrak at Newark Penn Station and booked a trip to Middletown, NJ on the Port Jervis line with the helpful trainee ticket clerk in the beautiful main waiting room of Newark Penn Station.
We then got on the same tracks we just alighted from on a random Penn-Station bound Northeast Corridor Line NJT electric train. I didn't pay too much attention to this train as I was excited to get to Secaucus Junction.
Secaucus Junction should really be called Secaucus Transfer. The Northeast Corridor is upstairs. The Hoboken-bound line (whose name I can't recall) is downstairs. The path is clearly marked and the station is spotlessly clean.
No matter where you're transferring to or from you're forced upstairs one or two flights to go through the fare gates. You get a magstripe ticket when booking any trip that requires a transfer at Secaucus, and that magstripe activates the automated fare gates on the upper-upper level at Secaucus. Although we had plenty of time to wait we didn't explore the concessions but I'm pretty sure there were not enough. The lower platform sits underneath the very loud highway overpass and gives a great view of several signal sets for us railroad signal geeks. Got lots of different aspect photos of those signals.
The customer service folks upstairs were extremely helpful and friendly and were quick to correct me that I wanted the lines through to Port Jervis, not Suffern as we had assumed.
The video screens on the platforms were correct for all the trains that stopped.
I should note that the lower platforms appeared to be significantly older than the NEC platforms do.
Both M-N and NJT have great conductors. The conductor on the Port Jervis line operated totally by Metro-North took our magstripe tickets but let the kids keep them as souvenirs. They were always in such a good mood and my kids had a great time whenever they came by checking seat checks.
I was embarrassed at the end of the trip. We were so excited by the Moodna Viaduct at sunset that we didn't realize the center doors do not open and nearly missed our stop. A fellow passenger helped us to the low-platform doors at the end of the car in the nick of time!! The conductors were gracious. My father, who was waiting for us, told us later that the conductor said that he was worried that he didn't see us exit the train. I very foolishly stood in the door while my family quickly alighted the train through the proper door. The PA system seemed not to be operating in our car and we think we missed the announcement about exiting at the ends of the cars.
I really enjoyed the beautiful abandoned railroad look of the Port Jervis line north of Suffern, NY.
Hope you liked this mini trip report.
The PJ trains on NJT/MNRR have some great conductors who have made several of our trips real fun...
Platforms up and down at SJ were opened at the same time..
There are only three, I think, vendors at SJ...
SJ has also just been remodled and reconfigured for some platform entrences....
Oh, and Thomas Nast lived in Morristown, NJ therefore rode the Morris and Essex/Deleware, Lackawanna, and Western....
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