Well put about passengers steering, Al.
al-in-chgoI guess this is close enough to be on-topic: Does the Acela actually "tilt" when it goes around curves? Like the Pendolino or like the Swedish prototype, for lack of the exact specs Acela's "grandfather"? I know the curves impose their own speed limitation but any tilting would tend to speed up the schedule at least a little, wouldn't it? And reduce the passengers' attempts to steer the train with the muscles of their diaphragm?
I guess this is close enough to be on-topic: Does the Acela actually "tilt" when it goes around curves? Like the Pendolino or like the Swedish prototype, for lack of the exact specs Acela's "grandfather"?
I know the curves impose their own speed limitation but any tilting would tend to speed up the schedule at least a little, wouldn't it? And reduce the passengers' attempts to steer the train with the muscles of their diaphragm?
Jerry,
Thanks for the info on the equipment curve performance tests.
The New Haven and Amtrak cab signals allowed 75 mph before the NEC change. I assume this was a practical limit due to frequent curvature. Furthermore, I understand New Haven and Amtrak? had waivers allowing 5 inches of cant deficiency. Doing some reverse-engineering, that works out to predominately 2-degree curves with 3 inches of cant (super-elevation).
I would add that the probable reason for allowing the LRC to be tested at 9 inches cant deficiency was due to the lower center of gravity of the Bombardier locomotive compared with the EMD F59. This leads me to wonder if the electrical gear above the floor of the Acela locomotives result in a higher than necessary center of gravity; and whether it's the locomotive lean as much as the tilt of the cars that is a factor in the New York - Boston restriction. The cant deficiency works out to 94 mph.
8 inches cant deficiency allows 90 mph; and 7 inches allows 85 mph. A minute is saved roughly every 6 miles with a nominal 90 mph limit; and a guesstimate is that as much as 30 minutes might be saved New York - Boston. A minute is saved every 9 miles at 85 mph; and 20 minutes might be saved.
You spoke of European systems allowing up to 6 inches cant deficiency. An SNCF representative explained in 1974 that 140 kph (86 mph) was only allowed for all-reserved trains such as the Mistral and Lyonnaise with seated passengers instead of the normal 120 kph (74 mph) limit where there may be standees. From this SNCF went to the TGV-Est running initially at 270 kph.
The point about the impact of active-tilt failure on schedule reliability is significant, although a 6-car Acela would meet 95%. Unfortunately, tilt isn't the only thing that can go wrong.
Well, it must be metioned that combustion turbines are a geat way to generate electricity. I toured the power plants on Maui once. The old Kahului steam plant burned thick oil. In Maalaea, we saw workers removing a piston big as a 55-gallon drum from an EMD diesel. And then we saw the combustion turbine--you could stand next to it and feel it. I think there are two of them there now, with a full heat recovery co-generation. Occasionally they clip 'em to an Air New Zealand 747 for maintenance in Auckland...
"Make no little plans; they have no magic to stir men's blood." Daniel Burnham
RUSSIAN LNG GAS TURBINE POWER
(I have a good pic from the Gazette but haven't figured how to insert it. Jerry Pier)
[1] Railway Gazette International
And the second gener
aegrotatio The T (Boston MBTA) hated those awful Boeing trolleys. They constantly modified them and threw up their hands. There aren't even any of them preserved from the T. You can't teach an old dog (jet helicopter maker) new tricks (good trolley maker). Those were the products of a raft of "make-work" contracts for defense contractors that would have gone out of business otherwise. Ever hear of New York Shipbuilding? Probably not. They didn't get enough "make-work" to stay in business.
The T (Boston MBTA) hated those awful Boeing trolleys. They constantly modified them and threw up their hands. There aren't even any of them preserved from the T. You can't teach an old dog (jet helicopter maker) new tricks (good trolley maker). Those were the products of a raft of "make-work" contracts for defense contractors that would have gone out of business otherwise.
Ever hear of New York Shipbuilding? Probably not. They didn't get enough "make-work" to stay in business.
I quite agree. And the second generation of "bicenennial" cars on the CTA L, which were built by Boeing/Vertol, had (or perhaps I should say have) more maintenance trouble that the originals built by Budd.
Still OT, butI wonder who designed the cars for Amtak's Chgo - Milwaukee run (the Hiawathas) and where they were built.
Maglevhydrofoils are still in use in Hong Kong thirty years later...
Again this is a constant speed use at max power. Not able in the present RR enviroment.
I know Boeing's foray into transit was less than successful, but I think the hydrofoils are still in use in Hong Kong thirty years later... I was really amazed when I saw that poster of a Goodyear train from the same era when that company was removing interurban tracks in Los Angeles. It seems that they knew Boston would always need trains, so they tried to innovate.
Jerry Pier To Blue Streak 1 Here are some. Russia-6000 kW LNG-fueled freight locomotive. One operating, 6 on order Egypt-Bombrdier (ANF) 600 passenger, 10 car trains, max speed 160 km/hr. Two power cars/train, each with one 1200 kW traction turbine and two 400kw APU's, all burning diesel fuel. Iran-RTG Trains delivered to Iran in the 70's during the Shah's reign. Used to connect Teheran to Mashad, cutting travel to this holy city time in half. Max speed 200 km/hr, track permitting Maintenance was neglected following the revolution and the trains were out of service for some time but I understand they have been re-engined and are back in service now. Having lost my French contact, can't readily confirm this Pictures of all 3 available if you are interested
To Blue Streak 1
Here are some.
Russia-6000 kW LNG-fueled freight locomotive. One operating, 6 on order
Egypt-Bombrdier (ANF) 600 passenger, 10 car trains, max speed 160 km/hr. Two power cars/train, each with one 1200 kW traction turbine and two 400kw APU's, all burning diesel fuel.
Iran-RTG Trains delivered to Iran in the 70's during the Shah's reign. Used to connect Teheran to Mashad, cutting travel to this holy city time in half. Max speed 200 km/hr, track permitting Maintenance was neglected following the revolution and the trains were out of service for some time but I understand they have been re-engined and are back in service now. Having lost my French contact, can't readily confirm this
Pictures of all 3 available if you are interested
I'd be interested to see more about the Russian turbo freight locomotive...
"I Often Dream of Trains"-From the Album of the Same Name by Robyn Hitchcock
Maglev (I thought this was the turbo thread, and all I see are spinning seats...) Oh yes, NEC express trains! My mention of airliners using turbos was meant to illustrate that the United States has a long history of being able to innovate when necessary. For example, Boeing built hydrofoils for Hawaii as well as subway cars for Boston. Goodyear Tire and Rubber Company's express NEC train of the 1950's was featured in a display at Back Bay Station. I just Googled history of NEC express for info on Bombardier trains, and saw a nifty name I about which I had forgotten... "American Flyer."
(I thought this was the turbo thread, and all I see are spinning seats...)
Oh yes, NEC express trains! My mention of airliners using turbos was meant to illustrate that the United States has a long history of being able to innovate when necessary. For example, Boeing built hydrofoils for Hawaii as well as subway cars for Boston. Goodyear Tire and Rubber Company's express NEC train of the 1950's was featured in a display at Back Bay Station.
I just Googled history of NEC express for info on Bombardier trains, and saw a nifty name I about which I had forgotten...
"American Flyer."
One Hundred yeas ago "American Flyer" (Chicago) Electric Trains were the number 2 builder of toy trains in the United States. Bought by A.C. Gilbert of New Haven CT during the Great Depression, they continued in production into the 1960s. They then were bought by the #1 company, Lionel Trains, and again put into production. The Lionel 2008, 200 page catatalog, had 14 pages of "American Flyer" (Registered Trade Mark of Lionel LLC) trains including a model of the 1947 Ameican Freedom Train.
Must have been a shock to Bombardier when they found American Flyer Trains were already in production.
Don U. TCA 73-5735
aegrotatio The T (Boston MBTA) hated those awful Boeing trolleys. They constantly modified them and threw up their hands. There aren't even any of them preserved from the T. You can't teach an old dog (jet helicopter maker) new tricks (good trolley maker). Those were the products of a raft of "make-work" contracts for defense contractors that would have gone out of business otherwise.Ever hear of New York Shipbuilding? Probably not. They didn't get enough "make-work" to stay in business.
Last ship completed USS Truxtun CGN-35, nuclear-powered guided missle cruiser.
oltmannd don't remember any LD coach seats that weren't "spinable". The Amfleet cars generally have the release pedal pinned, so "Joe Traveller" doesn't spin his seat. Generally, you push on the pedal, pull the seat away from the wall, spin it, then shove it back against the wall.
All of the pre-Amtrak LD coach seats that I rode in were reversible, whether they were the "walkover" (simply walk down the aisle, pushing on the backs of the seats to move them to the other side; did you ever spend a night on one of these cars?), or turn the whole seat on a center axis. Some roads had seats that were not pinned in any way, and the seats needed only pressure on the outer ends to turn them (Sou), the seats of others had a lever that had to be pressed down (N&W), and others, yet (IC), had seats that had to be pulled away from the side of the car before the seats could be turned. Perhaps "press and pull out" is more secure, but it seems to me that this adds more labor than is necessary.
I have not yet decided if the second most comfortable night I ever spent riding coach was in two facing seats on a Frisco car (lie down across one seat with my feet resting on the opposite seat), or in a Santa Fe high level coach (legrests made a great difference in comfort). My most comfortable coach night of all was in, believe it or not, a coach with walkover seats. I lay down, at full length, on the seat at the end of the seating section; it was next to the restroom wall, and was wide enough for me to stretch out. Of course, there were only two such seats in the car.
Johnny
DMUinCT oltmannd I don't remember any LD coach seats that weren't "spinable". The Amfleet cars generally have the release pedal pinned, so "Joe Traveller" doesn't spin his seat. Generally, you push on the pedal, pull the seat away from the wall, spin it, then shove it back against the wall. That's a lot of work to spin all the seats on an Acela. I guess there is too much customer dissatisfaction from riding backward to have the seats 50/50. I know my wife hates riding backward... Not a lot of seats to turn, and some seats face tables and need not be turned. Remember, the Acela has only "First Class" and "Business Class", no Coach. Each seat has space, full recline, foot rests, 115 volt power plug, headphone jacks, and fold up tray tables, with 3 across seating in "First Class" and 4 across in "Business Class". Like an airliner, they also have overhead cargo bins and emergency floor lighting. Not only that, but the center car is a Food Service Car with full tables. The total capacity of an Acela is only about the same as a Jumbo Jet (Boeing 767,777).
oltmannd I don't remember any LD coach seats that weren't "spinable". The Amfleet cars generally have the release pedal pinned, so "Joe Traveller" doesn't spin his seat. Generally, you push on the pedal, pull the seat away from the wall, spin it, then shove it back against the wall. That's a lot of work to spin all the seats on an Acela. I guess there is too much customer dissatisfaction from riding backward to have the seats 50/50. I know my wife hates riding backward...
I don't remember any LD coach seats that weren't "spinable". The Amfleet cars generally have the release pedal pinned, so "Joe Traveller" doesn't spin his seat. Generally, you push on the pedal, pull the seat away from the wall, spin it, then shove it back against the wall.
That's a lot of work to spin all the seats on an Acela. I guess there is too much customer dissatisfaction from riding backward to have the seats 50/50. I know my wife hates riding backward...
Not a lot of seats to turn, and some seats face tables and need not be turned. Remember, the Acela has only "First Class" and "Business Class", no Coach. Each seat has space, full recline, foot rests, 115 volt power plug, headphone jacks, and fold up tray tables, with 3 across seating in "First Class" and 4 across in "Business Class". Like an airliner, they also have overhead cargo bins and emergency floor lighting. Not only that, but the center car is a Food Service Car with full tables. The total capacity of an Acela is only about the same as a Jumbo Jet (Boeing 767,777).
Acela seats about 300, right? First class is 2 + 1, but there are some facing pairs, so 140 seats to turn, perhaps? At 4 per minute, that's 35 minutes, so a cleaning crew of 3 or 4 ought to be able to turn an Acela set in an hour. Is that how it works?
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
aegrotatio Neat!! Instead of turning the train they rotate the seats!! I'm glad I'm not a passenger car design engineer. I would never have thought of that.
Neat!! Instead of turning the train they rotate the seats!!
I'm glad I'm not a passenger car design engineer. I would never have thought of that.
Hardly a new concept. South Shore's rebuilt air-conditioned cars (100-111 and 23-28) had the same arrangement instead of walkover seats.
Deggesty DMUinCTOkay, I rode a Northeast Regional (which is really Metroliner with older coaches) and Acela Express. Do they turn the trains around in Boston and DC or what? Two weeks ago, we rode, in Business Class, from Rensselaer to New York and from New York to Washington. I think it was after we boarded in New York that an announcement was made that the seats COULD NOT BE TURNED. I looked at the seats across the aisle, and saw that they had what looked like the levers that unlock the seats so that they could be turned, and wondered why the announcement was not that the seats are not to be turned. On another thread, I saw a item to the effect that safety regulations forbid having seats facing unless there is a table between them. Can anyone give the rationale for such a regulation? Is it to prevent a long trajectory in the case of a sudden stop? I noticed on VIA 1 cars that the seats that are facing have tables between them (they are reserved for parties of three or four). Johnny
DMUinCTOkay, I rode a Northeast Regional (which is really Metroliner with older coaches) and Acela Express. Do they turn the trains around in Boston and DC or what?
Two weeks ago, we rode, in Business Class, from Rensselaer to New York and from New York to Washington. I think it was after we boarded in New York that an announcement was made that the seats COULD NOT BE TURNED. I looked at the seats across the aisle, and saw that they had what looked like the levers that unlock the seats so that they could be turned, and wondered why the announcement was not that the seats are not to be turned. On another thread, I saw a item to the effect that safety regulations forbid having seats facing unless there is a table between them. Can anyone give the rationale for such a regulation? Is it to prevent a long trajectory in the case of a sudden stop? I noticed on VIA 1 cars that the seats that are facing have tables between them (they are reserved for parties of three or four).
As stated above, the crews rotate the seats at the end of the run (Boston or New York or Washington). Reason: policy, safety, law compliance. --- see below
AMTRAK
"NEC Customer Service Notice - Number 2001-04, Effective January 18, 2001"
"To: All Train Service Employees Subject: Seat Orientation on High Speed Trainsets (HST)"
" For safety reasons, the only allowable configuration for facing seats on HST's is when a table is located between the facing seats. It is not permissible to rotate seats to allow facing seats without a table between them, as this seating configuration has not been tested in accordance with Federal Regulations 49 CFR 238.403 (d) and 49 CFR 238.435 (a) and (c)."
" To ensure the safety of our guests, and compliance with the previously mentioned Federal Regulations, each seat must face a seat back or table. Please monitor your train to ensure that proper seat configuration exists. Thank you."
aegrotatio Okay, I rode a Northeast Regional (which is really Metroliner with older coaches) and Acela Express. Do they turn the trains around in Boston and DC or what? All the seats I saw were facing in one direction except for the card table seat I sat on on the southbound end of a northbound Acela Express.
Okay, I rode a Northeast Regional (which is really Metroliner with older coaches) and Acela Express. Do they turn the trains around in Boston and DC or what?
All the seats I saw were facing in one direction except for the card table seat I sat on on the southbound end of a northbound Acela Express.
At each end of an Aclea is a 6,000 hp locomotive. In service the lead locomotive pulls while the rear locomotive pushes (no slack), both have their pantographs up. When any of the 20 Acela Train Sets (15 in service on an average day) reach Boston or Washington, they are not turned, they are cleaned, seats without tables are rotated to be forward for the next run, and any equipment errors logged or fixed.
First Class section on an Acela
TomDiehl henry6 The Northeast Corridor trackage is about 49.48% commuter and 49.49% Amtrak. Although there is freight useage it is so minimal at this time it is almost negligable. True, but you add 50 trains a day to the mix that only run at 30 to 50 MPH among the commuter and LD trains running at a minimum of twice that speed on already overcrowded and overwhelmed track, you're looking at delays that the foreign railroads don't have. Also compare when the foreign HS rail lines were laid out and built as compared to the NEC, you have a couple generations of technology and engineering differences. Without massive amounts of money, this isn't going to change soon.
henry6 The Northeast Corridor trackage is about 49.48% commuter and 49.49% Amtrak. Although there is freight useage it is so minimal at this time it is almost negligable.
The Northeast Corridor trackage is about 49.48% commuter and 49.49% Amtrak. Although there is freight useage it is so minimal at this time it is almost negligable.
True, but you add 50 trains a day to the mix that only run at 30 to 50 MPH among the commuter and LD trains running at a minimum of twice that speed on already overcrowded and overwhelmed track, you're looking at delays that the foreign railroads don't have. Also compare when the foreign HS rail lines were laid out and built as compared to the NEC, you have a couple generations of technology and engineering differences. Without massive amounts of money, this isn't going to change soon.
One, I consider the Corridor Boston to D.C., so freight only exist in minisucle amount over entire route. And t Tom, you make my point of the commuter and Amtrak mix already there and being more of a problem than frieght.
RIDEWITHMEHENRY is the name for our almost monthly day of riding trains and transit in either the NYCity or Philadelphia areas including all commuter lines, Amtrak, subways, light rail and trolleys, bus and ferries when warranted. No fees, just let us know you want to join the ride and pay your fares. Ask to be on our email list or find us on FB as RIDEWITHMEHENRY (all caps) to get descriptions of each outing.
al-in-chgo Correct me if I'm wrong, but the original Metroliner's First Class had 1 + 1 swivel seats.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the original Metroliner's First Class had 1 + 1 swivel seats.
You are correct! I rode Metroclub from Phila to Penn Sta on 7/20/69. Swivel Palor car seating! That was SOME day!
Maglev Q:"Who on this planet is operating turbos? Why?" A: All the airlines, because they are lightweight and reliable.
Q:"Who on this planet is operating turbos? Why?"
A: All the airlines, because they are lightweight and reliable.
By no streach of anyone's imagination did I include airlenes. Their power use is at maximum continous power except on descent.
OK:: Where on this planet are RR locomotive (power) turbos now operated on this planet?
The seat question:
"To ensure the safety of our guests, and compliance with Federal regulation 49CFR 238.403, each seat must face a seat back or table. Please monitor your train to ensure that the proper seat comfiguration exists. Thank you" "It is not permissable to rotate seats to allow for facing seats without a table between them,"
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.