That's better.
They allow photos on platforms immediately before and after you get on or off a train.
If you've ever pulled out a camera after getting off a train at Union Sta DC - that's a change. They will hassle you faster than you can blink - and always have.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
Those rules seem pretty reasonable to me.
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
As I commented in an above link, "Restricted Area", Platforms unless you have a ticket????
Don U. TCA 73-5735
DMUinCT As I commented in an above link, "Restricted Area", Platforms unless you have a ticket????
I see nothing wrong with not allowing people on the platform unless they are ticketed passengers or RR Staff.
Amtrak is financed by OUR tax dollars. For our dollars we should at least be able to take a photograph and enjoy our hobby. Maybe if all the members of NRHS, subscribers to Trains, and other organizations wrote their congressmen and ask why we can watch trains from platforms it would get some attention. Perhaps funding cuts are needed to get rid of some of these bad decision makers !
I disagree. First off, most if not all responsible railfans, wouldn't interfer with passengers getting on or off trains. Second, most of the security people, think they make the laws, not enforce them. Third, said security usually doesn't have the intelligence to make a proper security agent, and are usually a joke. And last but not certainly not least, as stated previously, Amtrak is supported with tax dollars, from the public sector. The biggest threat to freedom in this country, comes from Homeland Security. I doubt if any of these idiots could hold an honest job, that's why they work for the government.
R. Staller
Phoebe VetI doubt that there is anyone in here that is more offended by the idiotic paranoid security that has been inflicted on our society since 9/11, but I see nothing wrong with restricting access to the platforms to people who are actually getting on or off the train. There is no reason to have non passengers interfering with boarding.
I think you have to consider individual situations. Amtrak's legitmate interest in passenger flow concerns on platforms at Union Station in Chicago is different than those at Wolf Point, Montana. The same policy shouldn't cover both situations.
I share your contempt of the government's "security theatre" activities, however.
DakGuy:
Actually, your comparison is self adjusting. While I am not familiar with Wolf Point, MT, smaller stations do not have enclosed platforms. I took this picture standing at the fence between the Amtrak platform (visible on the far side of the inbound train) and the parking lot beside the station in Charlotte, NC. In Salisbury, NC there is no platform, just a gate in the fence that the train stops beside.
This particular train is the "Piedmont" which is owned by North Carolina DOT.
Dakguy201 Phoebe VetI doubt that there is anyone in here that is more offended by the idiotic paranoid security that has been inflicted on our society since 9/11, but I see nothing wrong with restricting access to the platforms to people who are actually getting on or off the train. There is no reason to have non passengers interfering with boarding. I think you have to consider individual situations. Amtrak's legitmate interest in passenger flow concerns on platforms at Union Station in Chicago is different than those at Wolf Point, Montana. The same policy shouldn't cover both situations. I share your contempt of the government's "security theatre" activities, however.
Has anyone ever heard of Amtrak enforcing this policy at a small station? This policy is merely a lever to use at the large stations or, perhaps special circumstances at smaller locations as needed.
That argument that Amtrak is taxpayer supported, so we should have all kinds of access is lame. The Navy should provide public access to aircraft carriers?
Restricting access to train platforms in larger stations is not uncommon and has been routine for years and predates 9 eleven and even Amtrak. The need for space for entraining and detraining passengers, train servicing, and, at one time, head end traffic. So the fewer people on a platform the safer and more efficient the operation. And if there is two or more trains in a short time, it is more essential for the operation to keep uneccessary people out of the way. But why can't a railfan get some kind of clearence from the station master for a one time once opportunity to take a picture? Or for any other photography for that matter? .
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I think the NY Penn case in the original post was about a photographer who had not gotten the some kind of clearance Henry asks for, whom Amtrak police had detained, and who claimed he was photographing because Amtrak had advertised a photography contest. I haven't read the contest rules, but the impression I get is that there was no mention about getting permission to photograph in public areas, and if he had been able to get down to the platform I assume he did so by just walking down the steps, and not by jumping any velvet rope or more substantial barrier.
There are some folks who do get clearance. Recently in Philadelphia a couple had their wedding photos taken at SEPTA's Broad St Subway Walnut-Locust station. I assume they dotted their t's and crossed their i's beforehand, but it's also possible that bride, groom and photographer just plunked tokens in the turnstile and got in and out before the police could react. If that's the case then all the terrorists have to do is dress up in tuxedos and flowing white gowns and our country is doomed.
Patrick Boylan
Free yacht rides, 27' sailboat, zip code 19114 Delaware River, get great Delair bridge photos from the river. Send me a private message
gardendance If that's the case then all the terrorists have to do is dress up in tuxedos and flowing white gowns and our country is doomed.
If that's the case then all the terrorists have to do is dress up in tuxedos and flowing white gowns and our country is doomed.
I knew this thread would eventually sink into the abyss of our collective "terrorist" hysteria.
A few months ago my granddaughter, a fifth grade student, came to me to tell me that she had learned in history class about some men who had flown some planes into big buildings.
How long will it take us to figure out that we are not in constant daily danger of the world being brought to an end by a few primitives with box cutters and personal explosive devices.
You stand a much greater chance of being killed in a car accident than in a terrorist attack.
The Amtrak rules about only allowing ticketed passengers on the platforms are about safety around the trains and free flowing crowd control, not terrorism.
So platforms at Chicago Union Station would be considered a restricted area while the platforms at Naperville and Springfield, IL would not be, being open to public access. At least until someone gets all worked up about Homeland Security.
Amtrak's concern for passenger flow? Amtrak trains arriving in Chicago have only a quarter of the volume of faster alighting and walking Metra commuters. As it is, the pillars in the middle of the platform are far more of an obstacle to passenger flow than a photographer. I would imagine the NJT and MTA trains still carry at least twice as many passengers as anything Amtrak runs into Penn Station.
I doubt that Amtrak will let you ON the platform at any station of any size unless you are a ticketed passenger, but in small stations there are areas near the platforms with a clear view of the platforms from which you can take pictures to your heart's content.
Large stations where the platforms are indoors or in a weather protected enclosure would, of course, be a different story.
If you need to photograph on the platform, contact the management of the facility, explain the need, promise to be brief, offer to sign a liability waiver, and promise to comply with any restrictions they impose. You may find they are willing to co-operate.
Harvey, what I think is that at large, busy stations where a ticket is required to enter upon a platform, or any similar station set up, you will not have the chance to take a picture. But if you are at a rural station or other station where a ticket is not required to enter upon the platform, you probably are not as likely to be challenged. Not that it is any more or less legal, just not as likely to be challenged.
"Photography and video recording within restricted areas are prohibited. Individuals found in a restricted area will be subject to investigation and possible arrest and seizure of photography and/or video recording equipment may occur pursuant to the arrest. This policy applies in all circumstances, including where Amtrak may be promoting a photography contest or event."
Restricted areas include but are not limited to the following:
Considering 4, 9 & 10 what's left to photograph? Try arguing the difference of "within" and "of" with a security guard. :(
As I commented before, the chance of a terrorist being discouraged by these rules is far smaller than the chance of a photographer getting a picture of a terrorist. Would be interesting to see one study justifying these rules. I suspect they are made because they are easy to make and gives the police something to do. With cameras on most cell phones, I doubt the police can see a small fraction of the picture taking done in areas sensitive to national security.
I have to disagree. I still believe that the photography rules are not about terrorism, but are about safety around the moving equipment. I also believe that the new photography rules are just a clarification of the existing policy in the wake of the recent fiasco. It keeps each station or police officer from using his or her own judgement and thus avoids arguments on the platform. I do not believe that it is unreasonable to allow only ticketed passnegers on the platform.
There are many places that are accessable to non passengers where you can photograph the trains and in all but a few of the largest stations, you can even photograph people boarding.
I have found that polite requests made of the people in charge of a facility, with an explanation of my needs and assurances that I will comply with any restrictions placed, will often but not always result in a one time bending of the rules if they are not currently swamped with work.
Photography rules are about paranoia....lawyers and insurance salesmen hammering the fear of retiburition and liablity into the hearts of railroads; security controlers who have to flex thier muscles to prove thier worth to their superiors; employees fearing company spies or invasion of thier privacy; managements too engrossed in bottom lines to understand the value of having a good face for the public and inability to grasp that this is a business that has its own groupies and not knowing...or wanting to know...how to handle them. On the otherside of the coin is the photographer...the interloper, the tresspasser, the so called railfan...who thinks its his God given right to snap away anytime, anyplace disregarding the sanctity of private property and the safety of the property owner, employees and patrons; just because the First Amendment says you can doesn't neccessarily mean you can.or should or have a right to. Photographers (railfans in this case) have done railroads a lot of favors over the years, and the favors have been returned. But photographers (again, railfans in this case), have also done a lot of harm, have been intrusive, even distructive, and in so doing have gotten the ire of railmanagement who have reacted in kind. Of course a picture of an ACELA at speed or a stack train slipping through the Rockies or a coal drag Appalacihia or San Diegan spread along a Pacific Beach has not a whit of terrorism about it. But that flash into the eyes at the controls of the Cardinal in the middle of the night, the tripod set up on the platform where passengers stand awaiting or alighiting thier trian or a lone wolf standing alongside a single track in the middle of nowhere pointing something at a train do cause concern and need for policing. The overzealousnesses of photographers, railraods' managements for safety, and anti terrorist's fears have brought us to today. Railroads in the past have always had rules and regulations and permission papers in order for one to photograph thier property and equipment; so this is nothing new, nothing we shoul all of a sudden be alarmed over. But the polarization of the sides has to be mediated. It will cool down sometime in the future, I am sure. But is has to be done in a respectful and sensible manner with a mutual understanding of reasonble parameters.
HarveyK400So platforms at Chicago Union Station would be considered a restricted area while the platforms at Naperville and Springfield, IL would not be, being open to public access. At least until someone gets all worked up about Homeland Security.
Exactly. Even before these new rules took place, you could only get on the platform at Chicago Union Station if you were planning on boarding one of the trains. They have specific gates for boarding. Springfield, on the other hand, you can just walk onto the platform whenever you darn well please, and security won't hassle you for it. Come to think of it, I don't think there are any security agents at the Springfield station, are there?
See the new TRAINS magazine for a great take on this in Don Phillip's column.
Read it. His take is that the policy is dumb, but the enforcement will be smart.
I'm a bit late in getting on board this thread, but I had to share my experience from an Amtrak trip in March...
My wife and I recently completed a two-week vacation aboard Amtrak on the Cardinal and Texas Eagle to participate in our son's wedding in Texas. The service, food and timekeeping was exemplary and every onboard crew member we encountered was most genial and professional, save one.
On Monday, Mar. 9th we were aboard train #21 from Chicago to Fort Worth. As we approached the St. Louis stop an announcement was made that anyone who wanted to could get off to stretch their legs, have a smoke or whatever. I decided to take the opportunity to check out the train and grab a photo or two to document our journey and so after stopping I exited along with a half dozen or so others.
As I approached the head end, there were three or four crew members standing near the rear of the locomotive, presumably going over their crew change pass-on information. Suddenly, a gentleman who I recognized as the conductor on duty from Chicago, started to walk toward me and shouted, "Hey, can I help you?". My answer was no and I was just getting a picture of the train. He said, "Oh no you're not. This is as far as you go". When I asked why, he stated, "Well, you know, because of all the security problems we've been having lately." He walked back toward the others and following him I asked, "You mean I can't even take a picture of 'my’ train for posterity?" He just said, "Nope." No one else said anything but I decided not to press the issue and walked back to photograph the passenger cars and my wife looking out the window of our sleeper. Moments later he walked right past me as I photographed the cars and said nothing.
I returned to my car and fumed over not getting his name or asking him to better explain his request. The latest I knew at that time concerning Amtrak's photo policy was what Mr. Cliff Black of Amtrak Corporate Communications said regarding the infamous news interview a few months ago at Union Station in Washington, DC. As I recall, it was something to the effect that, 'there is no prohibition on anyone photographing Amtrak trains anywhere.' This was all, of course, just days before Amtrak's new photo policy was announced.
What makes this conductor's demand more questionable is that he only denied me the right to photograph the locomotive, but not the passenger cars. He walked right by me moments later as I was photographing the cars and said nothing. If photographing the locomotive was a security concern, why wasn't photography of the cars full of passengers also a security issue? The following morning several other passengers and I photographed the same train at Longview, TX in full view of the entire crew and no one said a word about it. I also photographed the train at Dallas and St. Louis on our return trip to Chicago also in full view of the crew and no one had a problem with my photography.
...no problem with security personnel, but this conductor seemed to be making up the rules to suit his own ego.
Anderphoto
I learned way back when I was in the Navy, that there is always about 10% that don't get the word.
The question of what constitutes a "platform" is still up in the air. Here in SoCal I have heard complaints of photographers being chased off the Commerce Metrolink station "platform". Anyone who has seen the Commerce stop will know why I put the word platform in quotes. It's a bare paved area with rails on both sides, but in a good place to get some nice pictures.
And I wonder what will happen in Fullerton on a Friday evening when lots of railfans gather and the clicking of shutters is constant when a train comes by.
Jack
NYSubway18 "Photography and video recording within restricted areas are prohibited. Individuals found in a restricted area will be subject to investigation and possible arrest and seizure of photography and/or video recording equipment may occur pursuant to the arrest. This policy applies in all circumstances, including where Amtrak may be promoting a photography contest or event." Restricted areas include but are not limited to the following: Platforms (ticketed passengers are exempt) Crew and Employee Work Areas Maintenance Facilities Unoccupied Trains and Engines Office Areas Employee Elevators Baggage/Delivery Areas Commissaries Right of Way and Track Areas In service train cars Considering 4, 9 & 10 what's left to photograph? Try arguing the difference of "within" and "of" with a security guard. :(
I think that is an excellent point. If you take a photo of an object that is within a restricted area, but you are not in a restricted area when you take the photo, are you taking a photo within a restricted area? The language of the rules is pretty fuzzy on this point.
If the rules are about trespass and liability issues, then they don’t want railfans in restricted areas for any purpose, including photography. But if the rules are about terrorism, they don’t want people to photograph certain items, so they define them as restricted areas. In that sense, I don’t think it would be acceptable to photograph items that are within those restricted areas even if you are in a non-restricted area when taking the photo.
Wake up Amtrak, you may loose friends, including in Washington.
When a U.S. Agency, any agency, which is created to serve the Public, feels it must HIDE from the Public what it is doing, by limiting or prohibiting the reporting and photographing of a public owned agency from public property, makes one wonder !
How many laws are being broken? What unsefe operations are going on? Who is stealing what? Who is mis-representing what?
This is what went on in Germany in the1930s and the people did nothing! If you can't trust your government - - - - - -
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