A few thoughts, why did passenger service become nationalized? It was no longer profitable enough to take motive power from freight and use it on passenger. The best use of "stimulus" money would be to upgrade existing ROW and possibly add new where needed. Current infrastructure is inadequate and antiquated and it is what moves the freight of the American economy. I love the thought of HSR and greater rail service, I live in Ohio in a city that would be part of the 3c corridor. However, when this economy roars again and it will, renewed and strengthed freight systems will be necessary and will go along way to keeping the cargo moving.
But again guys, signal systems are not the whole story albeit an important part of it.
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henry6If signals were the only answer WABCO and SIEMANS and IBM, just to name a few, would probably have presented such ideas by now...and I believe they do have such projects underway and even in some cases in place.
They have! Since the mid 1980s when the RRs thru the AAR started the ATCS project, hiring ARINC to do the heavy lifting on the spec writing, the manufactures have been buzzing around trying to sell some version of it. It has morphed into CBTC and PTC, but the basic notion driving it is over 20 years old. (I believe it was some of the smart folks at CSX that started the ball rolling. They were looking for a cheap way to increase capacity in dark territory)
The problem is when the ROI comes from increased capacity, and you are not in a largely capacity constrained condition (only in the past couple of years has that really become an issue), it's hard to fork over hard dollars for soft savings when you have so many hard savings, high ROI projects lined up and not enough capital to do them all.
As for HSR, we'll probably wind up with a purely American version. A blend of quasi-mixed passenger and freight ROW with, progressive and incremental curve easements in places and some stretched of brand new ROW to connect some critical dots on the map where the existing ROW is completely unsuitable. I just hope we figure out how to get it all to work together and dovetail it well with air service.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
At age 66, surely you have seen The Graduate with Dustin Hoffmann when it came out. Plastics! Back in the 1960's, plastics tech had been around for a while, but it was perhaps sound career advice. On the other hand it was a very funny line in a darkly funny movie about coming of age in that time because of the connotation of plastic as being tawdry, commercial, and cheap.
You asked what a person's vision was for transportation in the next 50 years, and the response I offered is that the revolution in microelectronics, in cost, quality, and quantity, will be applied to make more intensive use of the existing transportation infrastructure because the mass spending/investment in infrastructure that a lot of people think is essential is not going to happen.
Look at the FRA Web site. Are they funding research into new track designs? Maglev? Tilt trains? Propulsion? (OK, they did the Jet Train tests, but that is in the past). No, the big push is Automatic Train Stop or other initiatives into safety by preventing collisions.
It is kind of like people around here thunder, "The U.S. does not have transportation policy!" to which I respond, "it does too have a transportation policy, but it is not the one you want, and as a result you are unhappy." Ask a person where they think the big payoff will be in the next 50 years, that person offers the prediction that the application of electronics to improve the capacity of airways, railways, and highways will be the "next big thing", and one becomes unhappy because one is convinced that only massive spending on infrastructure will save us from the disaster one has in mind.
It also goes back to "amateur warriors talk strategy, the professionals work out logistics." Arm chair transportation planners think in terms of cement and HSR lines -- professionals (FRA) talk signals.
If "we" (that is the advocacy community) could get adoption of Automatic Train Stop nationwide, that would advance the cause of passenger rail more than any of the other initiatives we are pushing for.
If GM "killed the electric car", what am I doing standing next to an EV-1, a half a block from the WSOR tracks?
Young man! At age 66, I am flattered but not blinded. If signals were the only answer WABCO and SIEMANS and IBM, just to name a few, would probably have presented such ideas by now...and I believe they do have such projects underway and even in some cases in place. But signals and traffic density are not the only problems on the right of way...track dynamics are different today for freight vs. passenger cars than those of yesterday, speed capabilties of one vs. the other is another, traffic density of one commodity or type of traffic on one line vs another; just a whole bunch of things to consider beyond moving trains...definitely not a Lionel set by any means. Then there are the lawyers and insurance salesmen who want so much proctection should a passenger get a hangnail or a shipper's load not get delivered because a passenger train was in the way. Plus there are constantly changing markets, physical conditions, and needs for technology, commodities and people. The signal we need is yellow for planning but more than likely will be red because of gross NIMBYism and parochial politics and business interests.
henry6 Rights of way are in short supply in many areas of the country, the East and West because of congestion and sprawl, the Mountains because of practical routes. And the American public is clueless (not only by choice) about railroads and railroading. Traditionally a railroad is a railroad...just ask the Little Engine that Could and Thomas the Tank Engine and read the romantic stories of the Union Pacific et al. But the time has come for government, its constituents, and the business sector to come to terms on how they are going to transport themselves and their wares over the next 100 years or so. It is time to rip open the box(es) and start thinking what has to be accomplished. It is the old question every Human Rescource agent is trained to ask: Where do you see yourself in 10 years? 25 years? 50 years? Not only do we need ask that question of our transportation system we also have to answer it. And now!
Rights of way are in short supply in many areas of the country, the East and West because of congestion and sprawl, the Mountains because of practical routes. And the American public is clueless (not only by choice) about railroads and railroading. Traditionally a railroad is a railroad...just ask the Little Engine that Could and Thomas the Tank Engine and read the romantic stories of the Union Pacific et al. But the time has come for government, its constituents, and the business sector to come to terms on how they are going to transport themselves and their wares over the next 100 years or so. It is time to rip open the box(es) and start thinking what has to be accomplished. It is the old question every Human Rescource agent is trained to ask: Where do you see yourself in 10 years? 25 years? 50 years? Not only do we need ask that question of our transportation system we also have to answer it. And now!
I have one word for you, young man. Signals.
You will see continued incremental improvements to the fuel efficiency of autos and airplanes. Intercity rail will need to increase its market share beyond .1 percent of total passenger miles, I am told that is .4 percent of intercity passenger miles, for anyone to even care about the fuel efficiency of trains, which is not as good as people think it is.
Given the capacity constraints of the airways, the highways, and yes, even the railways, and given the high cost of construction projects, both in terms of labor and in terms of the time cost of money and the ever increasing regulatory delays, the next 50 years will see capacity improvement primarily with more effective use of what we have.
For airways, it will be Nextgen GPS navigation and separation. For autos, it will be some form of automated highway, which will come "from the bottom up" through adaptive cruise control, auto braking, and related features now on luxury cars. For trains, it will be system-wide adoption of automatic train stop.
Wow. Did you ever put words in my mouth!
I believe your RR is doing a decent job with the Amtrak trains they do operate, although they were a bit stubborn to begin with. Perhaps they are just astute negotiators.
And, they are privately held. Owners do have certain property rights, no?
Oltmannd:
Many of the people who are against all gov't bailouts do not like seeing a for profit freight railroad getting money to provide passenger service "all of the sudden". They believe {and rightly so} that there is something funny going on. A freight railroad that gets money to support a HSR project is a freight railroad providing passenger service. We as taxpayers also should not wait for transportation issues to get so bad that the gov't just hands the freight railroads a blank check. Case in point: the NE regional freight railroad operator I worked with spent a lot of money from company operations buying a bankrupt airline. When 9/11 came alone, the company took a bath. When high fuel prices started after Hurricane Katrina in 2005, this company lost its shirt. I watch the trains roll at restricted speed for dozens of miles due to harmonic rocking {lousy r.o.w. maint}. This company should sell the ***'d airplanes and put the money back into the r.o.w. The need to expand the commuter rail ops west to my area is growing, and I do not think its fair for tax payers to pay an arm, leg & kidney (when the time comes) to purchase lousy r.o.w. for big bucks, then have to spend even more to get the r.o.w. into running condition.
I am against freight railroads controlling the dispatching and maintaining of r.o.w.'s that will be used by Amtrak and any other passenger railway operator. There should be federal rail traffic controllers dispatching trains on federal funded row's. The r.o.w. maint. should be put out for bid, so the r.o.w. does not suffer when a freight railroad is having "a bad year".
As soon as California announced there HSR route the UP said they would not have it parallel there ROW down the San Joaquin Valley. So the California HSR will not parellel the UP down the valley but instead have there own route at least 2000 feet from any UP ROW. It may cross the ROW with bridges or tunnel under it in the case of Tehachapi Pass.
It was just announced within the last two weeks that the original estimate for the California HSR project would cost 16 billion. With the falling real estate values in California that ROW can now be purchased for 8 billion.
Much of the California HSR route will be on land already owned by the state or has already been acquired under the guise of Caltrans. Caltrans has acquired additional ROW alongside the existing Penisula ROW and getting rid of the street level crossings is the priority between San Francisco and San Jose. I would imagine that much of the so called high priced land will be taken by eminent domain.
Crossing Pacheco Pass will be via a series of tunnels and some of that proposed trackage will be on land already owned by the state. Down the valley ROW will be on much farmland which does not have as much value at the present time, as it gets closer to the cities the land value has dropped considerably as the speculators who bought this land for future growth of the housing industry are now going to eat it. BNSF has not put any restrictions on the HSR ROW so much will parallel this route between Merced and Fresno. From Fresno to Bakersfield there are a few smaller cities that will be bypassed for the most part. There will be feeder bus service to the HSR at Fresno and Bakersfield from these smaller communities. In addition the San Joaquins will feed traffic to the HSR at Bakersfield and Merced.
Large viaducts and bridges will be the order of the day to the tunnels that will be under Tehachapi Pass itself. The UP will spend alot of money they will need for other purposes on lawyers to keep the HSR from building alongside there ROW from Lancaster to LA. Much of the HSR through this area will be in a series of tunnels and bridges crossing over and under the UP ROW and the UP will just have to live with it. In addition cuts will be used extensively with concrete retaining walls to eliminate grade crossings.
From LA to Anahiem the ROW will be again in cuts with concrete retaining walls for the most part to eliminate grade crossings this will be similar to what was constructed from LA to the ports for container train service.
Personally my only complaint with the proposed 220mph HSR system is why not go with Maglev for 350 mph service and really show the world what the US is capable of when they put there minds to it. Maglev would truly be competive with air service and the costs would not be that much more than the proposed HSR service. In fact with the reduced costs of acquiring the ROW the Maglev system would probably cost no more than the 40 billion that was envisioned from the beginning.
Al - in - Stockton
Of course there are wide rights of way where one or more track has been lifted. And both freight and passenger railroads could take advantage of the situation for seperate track on same right of way or build more and longer sidings where needed. But the public doesn't know or understand this, and probably few politicians really do either. No matter whether we talk passenger or freight railroading, we unfortunately have to work at educating the public and the politicians on the history, physics, environmental, and vialbity of railroads. We often preach here to the choir. So make sure your leaders--political and business--know and understand the railroad story in your area. Suggest to them Trains Magazine and these forums, Railway Age, and newspapers like the Times, WSJ, Washington Post (those I am familiar with anyway), and others who cover the topic more often and intellegently than local papers might.
Isn't there often abandoned and removed track alongside many rights-of-way that had been used for passenger and can be replaced? It seems to me to be that super sidings on this spare room would do wonders for Amtrak schedules.
P.A.Talbot To Oltmannd and all freight railroaders past, present, and future; My last posting had the statement "who will argue that the money should not go to freight railroad companies? Who will argue against keeping the freight railroads seperate from passenger railroads?" Please don't be too quick to judge, or take the comment out of context. [1] I agree, that, with all the other industries getting tax money from the government, freight railroads should get their share, also. But let's remember, any industry that receives $$'s from the Fed Gov will have to accept gov intervention. Current freight railroads do not want any gov interference. [2] Please re-read the posting (02/23/09) where the above mentioned statement was made. And if I didn't make it clear before, allow me to make it clear now. Freight railroads compete with Amtrak for trackage, even when the freight railroads own the track in question, correct? This stimulus money for HSR, which is really for Amtrak, (aka, passenger railroad transportation) which everyone is checking in on, THIS IS THE MONEY that should not go to any freight railroad company. If the stimulus money is to develope HSR/Amtrak/Passenger railroad transportation, it should not touch the hands of a freight railroad, who are competing with Amtrak. There will be the temptation for freight railroad companies to use stimulus money to fix existing problems, and on projects not related to HSR. THIS is why I made the statement. I hope I have cleared up any misconceptions. I also look forward to any comments with regards to the need for IRSA, an Interstate Railway System Administration.
To Oltmannd and all freight railroaders past, present, and future;
My last posting had the statement "who will argue that the money should not go to freight railroad companies? Who will argue against keeping the freight railroads seperate from passenger railroads?" Please don't be too quick to judge, or take the comment out of context.
[1] I agree, that, with all the other industries getting tax money from the government, freight railroads should get their share, also. But let's remember, any industry that receives $$'s from the Fed Gov will have to accept gov intervention. Current freight railroads do not want any gov interference.
[2] Please re-read the posting (02/23/09) where the above mentioned statement was made. And if I didn't make it clear before, allow me to make it clear now. Freight railroads compete with Amtrak for trackage, even when the freight railroads own the track in question, correct? This stimulus money for HSR, which is really for Amtrak, (aka, passenger railroad transportation) which everyone is checking in on, THIS IS THE MONEY that should not go to any freight railroad company. If the stimulus money is to develope HSR/Amtrak/Passenger railroad transportation, it should not touch the hands of a freight railroad, who are competing with Amtrak. There will be the temptation for freight railroad companies to use stimulus money to fix existing problems, and on projects not related to HSR. THIS is why I made the statement.
I hope I have cleared up any misconceptions. I also look forward to any comments with regards to the need for IRSA, an Interstate Railway System Administration.
Your point #2 - $8B will not buy much new ROW. Exactly where are these new passenger trains going to run, if not along exisiting frt RR ROW? $8B will buy quite a bit of 110 mph track along existing ROW where usage is shared and managed to keep costs to a minimum and benefits to a maximum. You would be against this?
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