I'm back with more questions!
Why does a new DC passenger locomotive cost more than a new AC frt locomotive? Are Amtrak and the transit agencies "gold plating" their specs? Remember when Auto Train went to war with plain vanilla U36Bs?
Why does a new passenger car cost as much as a locomotive?
They don't in China! And, they're being build by a North American company!
Read this:
"Luxury trains are being built for the new track. They feature pressurised carriages to minimise the risk of altitude sickness and tinted windows to protect from strong ultra-violet rays. Canada's Bombardier has won the US$280m contract to build 361 cars, some of which will have deluxe sleeping compartments with individual showers, glass-walled sides to provide panoramic views, entertainment centres and gourmet dining areas, and toilets with sewage and waste-treatment systems." From http://www.guardian.co.uk/china/story/0,7369,1573971,00.html
Less than a million per copy. There may be "reasons" but none the Isaac Newton or Lord Kelvin would recognize.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
No fair, you already know the answers.
I think if we look back into our own so-called Golden Years we see an often uncontrolled urge to buy really cool passenger locomotives, not just transit agencies but even by Class I railroads, whereas freight is bottom-line driven. Think of the EA through E5, hand-built and not cheap. The specs I've seen lately from transit agencies were not so much gold-plated, though one could argue that, as customized. The problem is I think that transit agencies are staffed mostly by people not from a Class I background and tend to not have a world-view beyond their property. Some of the ex-Class I refugees at transit agencies are really smart people with stellar experience; some of them were chased out of the Class I they came from. But in either case not often are they making the big decisions.
I cancelled a contract a couple years ago for some passenger cars that would be built in Turkey for a developing-world railway. The cost per car was just slightly under $1 million each, average, for pullmans, coachettes, sleepers, and diners and they were direct copies of standard TCDD cars with only a difference in draft gear. My review at the time of the quote showed that the only savings in cost over U.S. built was lower-cost wages and labor burden; the amount of hours was on a par as if the cars were built in the U.S., and the cars were built and finished to the quality and durability I'd expect for U.S. cars. So not gold-plated by any means, but still not as cheap as one would hope for.
RWM
Well, maybe SOME answers...
...and I was hoping I was wrong.
MPI has standardized suburban locomotives with its MPExpress line, you have a choice of horsepower (3600 or 4000) or source of HEP (skid rig or directly off the prime mover), everything else is standard. Although production runs are still relatively short, the standardization helps to keep costs in line.
This is not unlike the PCC design, certain variations were allowed that still fit into the overall modular design.
That's true, Dave, and we're aware of that. What Don and I are saying is that the commuter locomotive cost includes the add-ons necessary for passenger service plus a premium. The premium is in large part, in my opinion, a desire for transit agencies to obtain not just a good locomotive, but an ideal locomotive. On the freight side we're pretty happy with good.
This is not a negative judgement on the transit agencies; the cost premium they're paying for customization may be outweighed by the operating and maintenance value obtained from customization. I haven't seen the details of the decision-making so I do not know the answer to my question.
Just curious,
What's the ballpark price for a pair of Genesis locomotives, a bombardier coach, and a cafe car? If anyone can give me a general (and well founded estimate) for each item I would greatly appreciate it.
So Dave, what's the deal with the high price of US passenger equipment?
Don, same as all of our other deals, volume, Volume, VOLUME!
(apologies to TV's David Letterman)
If GM "killed the electric car", what am I doing standing next to an EV-1, a half a block from the WSOR tracks?
daveklepper wrote:Freight locomotives don't need to provide head-end power and an additional passenger train communications link.
HEP is not cheap, but most passenger locos are 4 axle vs. 6 for frt, so that should offset a good chunk of it.
The train line communication stuff is nickel and dime gadgets - or it should be.
If I'm a commuter agency, why wouldn't I pick up some 2nd hand GP50s, stick a 12 cyl 710 in them, cram a HEP engine get set in the rear, chop the fuel tank down to 1000 gallons, rebuilt the rest of the loco in kind and be done with it. I'll bet I could a "like new" locomotive for somewhere around $1 - 1.5M vs $2.5-$3 for "new" new.
Prairietype wrote: Just curious,What's the ballpark price for a pair of Genesis locomotives, a bombardier coach, and a cafe car? If anyone can give me a general (and well founded estimate) for each item I would greatly appreciate it.
They also purchased 231 Bi Level coaches for $1.9M a piece (33 were cab cars)
http://www.njtransit.com/an_cp_newrailandbus.shtml
Seems like Amtrak is the only mode in the US saddled with "buy American" madates for their equipment. Wonder how much extra that is costing us?
Wonder how much could have been saved if Amtrak just purchased "off the shelf" X2000s - modified only for FRA safety stds, Amtrak colors and decor, and Amtrak cab signalling instead of Acela?
oltmannd wrote: Seems like Amtrak is the only mode in the US saddled with "buy American" madates for their equipment. Wonder how much extra that is costing us? Wonder how much could have been saved if Amtrak just purchased "off the shelf" X2000s - modified only for FRA safety stds, Amtrak colors and decor, and Amtrak cab signalling instead of Acela?
The savings would probably minimal since substantial re-engineering would be required to meet FRA safety standards. Consider what VIA has had to do with the Renaissance cars.
CSSHEGEWISCH wrote: oltmannd wrote: Seems like Amtrak is the only mode in the US saddled with "buy American" madates for their equipment. Wonder how much extra that is costing us? Wonder how much could have been saved if Amtrak just purchased "off the shelf" X2000s - modified only for FRA safety stds, Amtrak colors and decor, and Amtrak cab signalling instead of Acela? The savings would probably minimal since substantial re-engineering would be required to meet FRA safety standards. Consider what VIA has had to do with the Renaissance cars.
The VIA cars were already built. If you did the FRA stuff at spec time, the extra cost shouldn't be too bad.
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