Just a question. From memory (I was a kid back then) I seem to remember reports that airline security here in Europe was drastically up after the plane hijackings that started in the 70's. Was there, prior to 9/11, a difference in security between domestic US and international flights?
Not particularly, because of the way airports were laid out. Jetways, like train tracks, were used not only for international flights, but for local hops as well. I flew extensively in the mid to late 70's, and to get to a gate, you went through a metal detector. There was a lot of complaining about emptying your pockets of change, keys, etc., but soon enough it became part of the "thrill" of aviation. (There were also arrests made over poor attempts at humor at ticketing counters as well.)
Coming into the country was a little bit different, in that you got your baggage and then went through customs. It wasn't much different than flying into London, or Frankfurt am Main in (then) West Germany. I do remember seeing machine gun armed Bundesgrendschutze Polizei in Frankfurt, with a couple of guard dogs. This was back in the days of Baader Meinhof and the Red Army Faction terror groups busy blowing up clubs in Germany.
Can you please elaborate on how our governments failed us Europeans?
If I seemed insulting, this was not my intention, and I apologize. However, the recent Madrid bombings provide an example of what I mean. It is a great tribute to the Spanish police that they were able to apprehend the bombers of the Madrid trains. I have to wonder how they did it so quickly. I would like to think that the Spanish citizenry arose as one to aid and assist law enforcement, but I'm too cynical to accept that. Rather, I tend to believe that intelligence services knew in advance who the key players were, and didn't do anything about passing that information on until the bombings occurred.
Here in the US, heads rolled over lax airline security- even though the 9/11 hijackers broke no laws until they took over the aircraft. Heads are still rolling. The impression I get- admittedly filtered through American media, which is hardly fair and unbiased- was that European government changed their foreign policy to avoid further attacks, rather than take pre emptive action against known terrorist cells in Europe, many of whom are known and allowed to operate without hindrance, so long as they do not interfere with national interests.
I don't think Europeans are indifferent to personal survival, nor do I give them any higher marks in the bravery department than Americans have. My observation is that any government that accepts "hundreds of thousands" of casualties- or even, thousands of casualities- is indifferent to the protection of their citizens. And if a government is indifferent to the survival, health, and well being of their citizens, they are unlikely to do much in the way of protecting them.
Again, that's the way Europeans do things- and they seem to be pretty happy with it. But I don't think they are any braver than we are... or any more cowardly, either. So, Marc, if I inadvertently insulted you or offended you in any way, please accept my apologies for my blunt American observation.
I'm fine with video cameras in public places so long as there is someone actually watching the monitor and in communication with someone with the means to do something on a real time basis.
However, all too often, the only thing the cameras do is show us how an incident was accomplished and possibly clues as to who might have committed it. Determined terriorists don't care about those things, and so an unmonitored camera is not a defensive measure against them.
The issue of the difference in American and European differences in the treatment of minorities in their midst is way too touchy to discuss at length and likely to lead to getting this thread shut down. Suffice it to say both sides have had major incldents in their recent histories.
Lets talk safety and I have to agree with the English and there use of Cameras. Do I have a problem with cameras placed nearly everywhere not on your life. Is big brother watching so what! When I see the growing use of cameras in my own town Realize just how much safer it is making my community. One of the community groups raised three million dollars for just that purpose. The two Amtrak stattions are well covered including the parking lots. And they are paying retired Policeman 30.00 per hour to man the monitoring. I have personally visited the monitoring center and watched an actual crime in progress and the capture as he got out of the car with the stolen stereo system. At $10,000 dollars apiece these cameras are capable of reading a license plate at four city blocks. The cameras have one other advantage. In twenty years I will not have to pay them retirement. They require very little maintenance other than a washing a couple of times per year. When is the rest of the country going to wake up to the all seeing cameras. Even RR's are investing heavily in the all important camera.
Our own busines has installed cameras and to date have caught two graffiti bums and and one who broke into the business who not only was caught on camera but the silent alkarm assured police were waiting when he came out through the roof. As added security the police are able to monitor are cameras anytime of the night or day.
karldotcom wrote: Well yeah, we go over and bomb them and Europe sells them weapons through back door deals. It is just a different definition of bravery. >>>>The one line that really bugged me was "Europe has undergone far more terrorist acts and lost many hundreds of thousands more casualties than the United States over the decades, but Europe handles its casualties with far more bravery than the United States."
Well yeah, we go over and bomb them and Europe sells them weapons through back door deals. It is just a different definition of bravery.
>>>>The one line that really bugged me was "Europe has undergone far more terrorist acts and lost many hundreds of thousands more casualties than the United States over the decades, but Europe handles its casualties with far more bravery than the United States."
Ahhh, check "Charlie Wilson's War" to see who was a major provider of weapons to whom.
"We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum "We have met the anemone... and he is Russ." Bucky Katt "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr, Nobel laureate in physics
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erikthered wrote: Frankly, I believe our European allies have failed in protecting their citizens. I would hope we learn from their mistakes and try not to repeat them.
Frankly, I believe our European allies have failed in protecting their citizens. I would hope we learn from their mistakes and try not to repeat them.
Can you please elaborate on how our governments failed us Europeans? As far as I know there were not hundreds of thousands of deaths. Perhaps 10.000 spread over a lomg period and wide variety of terrorists and means ranging from sympatizers of the Palestinian cause hijacking planes (remember the 80's? Almost every 2 weeks a hijacking around the world or so it seemed) to people wanting to secede their part of their country from the rest (ETA in Spain, car bombings) to left wing terrorists like RAF in Germany and Red Brigades in Italy with mainly kidnappings. Different causes, different means, different security measures.
greetings,
Marc Immeker
alphas wrote: I think we all can agree that Mr. Phillips owes TRAINS readers a reasonable explanation as to how he came up with the "hundreds of thousands" figure. One other point: homegrown terrorism is different from terrorism that originates from outside a country. I'm not aware of any European country having that many terror attacks from groups that are actually from outside their respective country. (There were a few bombings in Germany, mainly directed against US servicemen, and the IRA attacks in England could fall in that catagory--but none of them resulted in massive casualties.) I'm also wondering if his comment that Europeans handle terrorists attacks with more bravery is his reflecting a rather widespread European intellectual view that the USA should have just absorbed the 3,000 dead on 9/11 and not done anything in Afghanistan.
I think we all can agree that Mr. Phillips owes TRAINS readers a reasonable explanation as to how he came up with the "hundreds of thousands" figure.
One other point: homegrown terrorism is different from terrorism that originates from outside a country. I'm not aware of any European country having that many terror attacks from groups that are actually from outside their respective country. (There were a few bombings in Germany, mainly directed against US servicemen, and the IRA attacks in England could fall in that catagory--but none of them resulted in massive casualties.)
I'm also wondering if his comment that Europeans handle terrorists attacks with more bravery is his reflecting a rather widespread European intellectual view that the USA should have just absorbed the 3,000 dead on 9/11 and not done anything in Afghanistan.
Well, it's the world's worst kept secret that Phillips is a devoted Euro-phile.
Regarding your "home grown terrorists" remarks, I'd be surprised if that doesn't change in the not so distant future, what with various European countries immigration changes (mainly, to try to keep funding their social services). The highest growing birth rate in Europe isn't native Europeans, i.e.
Unless one believes that the "rioting French youths" are French born in nature, in which case, I have a bridge to sell ya <g>
I was also puzzled by the reference to the hundreds of thousands of casualties. Granted, several countries withstood long periods of terriorist activities (the Brits had the IRA, the French/Spanish the Basques, etc.). Technically, I suppose it is true if one counts everyone scratched by flying glass and the like.
I view instances such as the spot checks in upstate New York as the beginnings of a TSA style security plan, and it strikes me as trying to get the camel's nose in the tent. I just hope Amtrak is planning something more intelligent.
Dak, Paul, you both raise good points which I am sure that Mr. Phillips will address.
I still stand by my gripe. The paragraph concerning European bravery was not relavant to the point of the article, which was to discuss improvement in AMTRAK security. The implication that Americans should withstand "hundreds of thousands of deaths" over "several decades" "bravely" was incendiary and hyperbolic. The American government reacted strongly to the loss of 3,000 people- heartily supported by elected representatives and the people of the United States. How does Mr. Phillips believe we would react to the loss of "hundreds of thousands" of our citizens to terrorism?
The rest of the article was indeed good news. If we indeed have in Mr. Rooney a competent, interested, and efficient planner, we won't face "bravely accepting" casualties. I would be ecstatic if Mr. Rooney were able to retire 20 years hence without a single terrorist act against any train on record.
And I agree with everyone- the best security is that security which allows us to conduct our lives without hindrance- and protects us from harm. May our new security manager pull that miracle off!
I KNOW DON PHILLIPS.PERSONALLY,HAVING MET ME WHEN I TRAVELED TO WASHINGTON D.C WHEN HE WAS THE TRANSPORTATION COLUMNIST FOR THE WAASHINGTON POST.EVERYTHING DON SAYS IS RIGHT ON THE MONEY.HE HAS OVER 40 YEARS EXPEIENCE IN THIS BUSINESS AND HAS SO MANY CONTACT IN THE INDUSTREY THAT HE CAN SAY ANYTHING AND HAVE THE PROOF TO BACK IT UP. DON ,IF YOU SEE THIS CONTACT ME AT MY NEW EMAIL ADDRESS AS I LOST YOURS, (frankdpasser@yahoo.com)
I WQOULD LIKE TOKEEP UP WITH YOUR RECENT GOINS ON.I HAVENT TALKED TO ROSS CAPON IN QUITE SOME TIME,BUT STILL GET THEIR NEWSLETTER AND ON LINE HOT REPORTS.I HAVE BECOME INVOLVED IN REGIONAL RAIL THRU AN OREGANAZATION "NORTHERN FLYER ALLIANCE" WHOM IS ATTEMPTING TO GET MORE REGIONAL SERVICE IN THE MIDWEST.THEY ARE HAVING ANOTHER MEETING THIS SAT DEC8TH.IF I HEAR FROM YOU BY THEN WL FLL YOU IN ON WHAT IS ACCOMPLISHED.
FRANK PASSER (GRAND AVE)
I think that the point that Don Phillips was trying to make was that Europeans have been exposed to terrorist acts from a variety of sources, both domestic and foreign, for a very long time and have come to consider the terrorist act as an unpleasant fact of life which is almost impossible to prevent.
While I will concede that security arrangements were in need of improvement, I will agree with those who believe that much of what the TSA is doing is for appearances and accomplishes little beyond annoyance and inconvenience.
It can be argued just how effective the present airport screening system is. From the tests with fake bombs that have been conducted by the GAO, it is not much better than catching a problem 50% of the time.
What is more, the airport screening system depends on a very limited number of chokepoints to isolate the aircraft from the threat potential. Railroads don't offer nearly the same opportunity for that isolation -- how many stations are there on the typical commuter operation? For that matter, if I am a terrorist, I do not need to go near a station at all, disrupting the roadbed immediately in front of a speeding train will have very satisfactory results.
Sadly, our efforts appear more designed to give the appearance of security than anything else. Don indicated he would explore this topic again in future issues, and Amtrak's effort to pursue a better approach to security. I look forward to seeing what he has to say.
As always, he wrote an excellent column and gently made points I disagree with. It's my guess that the function of TSA is to prevent terrorism by transportation modes. This is a proactive thing- and if it works, you never know it did. If the proactive approach doesn't work, well, everyone knows it.
The one line that really bugged me was "Europe has undergone far more terrorist acts and lost many hundreds of thousands more casualties than the United States over the decades, but Europe handles its casualties with far more bravery than the United States." That kind of line opens up a whole line of questioning. How did he come up with the number? Is it bravery that causes Europeans to reboard trains, or is it a lack of alternate transportation? If all you have is a trolley car, a bus, and a train to get around town, is it bravery to continue their use? Or neccessity?
The sad hassle of airport passengers began back in the 60's with airplane hijackings from the USA to Cuba, or with out and out extortion attempts (where are you now, D.B. Cooper?) In general, I agree with what Mr. Phillips put so well- that there must be some form of middle ground with regard to security. But making Europeans braver than Americans? That's a little over the top- and suggests that flying aircraft into tall buildings is part of the cost of providing cheap, reliable, and convenient transportation to citizens. All they have to be is brave enough to use it.
Well, call me a coward and paint me yella, but if I use public transportation, I should have a reasonable expectation of arriving at my planned destination in one piece and on time. I know, I know- it's unreasonable to expect government to protect me against "all threats, foreign and domestic."
Yes, the Brit police did react quickly to the terrorists- and so did the Madrid police. But it smacks a little bit of locking the barn after the horse has left.
I live in San Diego and I ride the Pacific Surfliner at least once a year to Anaheim to watch the Angels' baseball games. I also ride the Coaster train daily.
Don Phillipswrote about security issues in the latest trains magazine. I can see the TSA screening passengers in big stations across the country like New York, Washington, DC, and maybe Los Angeles and San Diego.
I sure can't see a TSA checkpoint at smaller stations in between like Solana Beach, Oceanside, San Juan Capistrano, and more small stations on the Pacific Surfliner route between San Diego, Los Angeles, Santa Barbara, and San Luis Obispo.
It would look rather silly to see TSA screeners there for both passengers and their luggage.
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