NEC Plain and Fancy?

[al-in-chgo]

Lately I've heard the statement made on this and other forums that the NEC is overcrowded with weekday passenger trains, especially the Philadelphia - Trenton segment.  From what I have observed, that is certainly true. 

Assuming money were no object (lol).  What in your opinions would be the best way to remedy this error, especially in the light of many people predicting more of a shift from air shuttles to NEC travel? 

I've though of things like:  (a) adding a track, if feasible; (b) stiffen "time-of-day" fares on Amtrak to further steer people toward early a.m. and p.m. service; or (c) is it possible to get beyond CTC technologically?  The new Wabtech system, something like that? 

NJT is one agency that seems to be ready for growth because they are slowly shifting over passenger equipment on NEC (and other of their lines) from mono- to bi-level coaches. 

I'm sure you'll have ideas of your own........ 

 

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

Realistically, there's probably not much that can be done.  Adding extra tracks is not feasible in part because of property acquisition costs, I'm not sure that going from four to six tracks would help that much without major repositioning of station platforms (more money).  Differential fares are standard on the suburban operators, the fare is higher during rush periods, Amtrak may well have a similar arrangement.  I doubt that new signalling and dispatching systems would do much to increase operating capacity.

[timz]

I've heard ... the NEC is overcrowded with weekday passenger trains, especially the Philadelphia - Trenton segment.

Phila-Trenton isn't the crowded part of the Corridor. Offhand I'd say the two tracks west out of NY carry at least 50% more trains than the four tracks west of Trenton; the four tracks east of NY Penn must carry twice the trains that Phila-Trenton does.

[paulsafety]

Something is being done to increase the physical plant in the NYC area:  a second set of tubes under the Hudson River to a new station at 34th Street in NYC....at a cost of billions.

http://www.accesstotheregionscore.com/THE_Tunnel.htm

In addition to the new tunnels, there is a planned connector ramp to allow Main, Bergen, and Pascack Valley trains to access Manhattan directly (skip Hoboken entirely).

Elsewhere along the NEC, I don't think it would be necessary to expand all right of way -- adding a single, bidirectional track with high speed cross overs would allow more meets and "overtaking" of slower trains while at speed.  Choke points do remain -- tunnels and bridges mainly.

MARC has also been moving to bi-levels on their NEC based route.  If Europe already has bilevel TGV's maybe we should consider that technology for increasing capacity on individual trains?

Paul F.

[alphas]

Paulsafety;

I agree these 2 projects are the most needed improvements on the NEC currently (although I seem to recall they have to do something soon with the Perryville bridge).   But we're talking mucho billions, especially since government funding will result in the prevailing wage act applying.  Is there the national political will to spend so much in the NYC area, particularly after the Big Dig fiasco? 

Note: for any of you who aren't familar with prevailing wage laws, including the Fed's Davis-Bacon Act, let me just say when a local company repaved my driveway a few years ago the workers were all happy because the next week they were starting a very long-term road reconstruction project and instead of the $13-15 per hour they were making on my job, the law rquired them to be paid $30-34 per hour.  One exception: the flagpersons (would be all female since government said they had to have to have female employees when working on government funded construction jobs) were only going to get something like $27.50 per hour for standing there.   One of the worker's had a spouse who was going to be a flagperson and all of the other worker's were envious of him.

[JT22CW]

Lately I've heard the statement made on this and other forums that the NEC is overcrowded with weekday passenger trains, especially the Philadelphia - Trenton segment. From what I have observed, that is certainly true

WADR, sir, the Trenton-NY Penn segment sees the highest congestion. By comparison, the SEPTA R7 segment (Philly-Trenton) is remarkably free-flowing. There is a huge bottleneck on the "High Line" between Kearny NJ and the North River tunnel portals in Jersey City NJ—this has been exacerbated by the many trains that NJ Transit has diverted out of Hoboken and into NY Penn.

Assuming money were no object (lol). What in your opinions would be the best way to remedy this error, especially in the light of many people predicting more of a shift from air shuttles to NEC travel?

They should have kept Exchange Place Terminal open (Jersey City NJ), which was the original last stop of what we now call the "Northeast Corridor". The other alternative is to complete the "Waterfront Connection" and allow a greater percentage of NEC trains to terminate at Hoboken Terminal, while restarting ferry service between Hoboken and Manhattan in earnest, i.e. compared to the minuscule NY Waterway operation that exists now. (The Access To The Region's Core project, whose goals change seemingly annually, is overpriced compared to the quite tiny scope it currenty possesses; current estimate is $10 billion, and it is not conducive to the extensive diesel commuter service that operates in New Jersey. Not to mention, the tunnels will not serve the 21 tracks of NY Penn as originally planned, but go solely to a new six-track deep-level terminal to be built under 34th Street, approximately next to Macy's. FTR, this consortium is certainly assuming that money is no object for what looks to me to be a race to the bottom.  And oh yeah; the PRR spent $2.6 billion in 2007 dollars to build New York Penn Station and all of the tunnels leading to it, back in 1910.)

The image linked below shows Exchange Place during its "great-arch shed" days. They were a little too zealous in ripping out this terminal and the elevated line leading to it, IMHO. (The Hudson & Manhattan, today's PATH, operates on the old ROW leading to Exchange Place for the most part; H&M and PRR trains used to share the ROW.)The original Washington-Boston corridor, for the record, involved the former PRR Bel-Del, the Lehigh & Hudson River, and the Poughkeepsie Bridge; this bridge some politicians are now attempting to turn into the world's tallest rail-trail, in essence.

Now if you had mentioned Washington-NYC in particular, the B&O's "Royal Blue" route is still available, although it has some substantial freight-only segments.

I've though of things like: (a) adding a track, if feasible; (b) stiffen "time-of-day" fares on Amtrak to further steer people toward early a.m. and p.m. service; or (c) is it possible to get beyond CTC technologically? The new Wabtech system, something like that?

The NEC already has ACSES, which permits the high speeds. However, not all equipment is certified for the same operating speed: NJT's trains are variously certified between 90 mph and 100 mph, but no higher than 100 mph. SEPTA's MUs are certified for no faster than 80 mph, IINM.

NJT is one agency that seems to be ready for growth because they are slowly shifting over passenger equipment on NEC (and other of their lines) from mono- to bi-level coaches

Well, to be utterly frank, NJT's playing catch-up in a lot of respects; and the seating capacity of the multi-levels is not much higher than in a single-level car, although it is greater than double the older coaches with 2-2 seating. I and others prefer a greater focus on MUs; but NJ politicians are quite unreachable.

I agree these 2 projects are the most needed improvements on the NEC currently (although I seem to recall they have to do something soon with the Perryville bridge). But we're talking mucho billions, especially since government funding will result in the prevailing wage act applying. Is there the national political will to spend so much in the NYC area, particularly after the Big Dig fiasco?

Note: for any of you who aren't familar with prevailing wage laws, including the Fed's Davis-Bacon Act, let me just say when a local company repaved my driveway a few years ago the workers were all happy because the next week they were starting a very long-term road reconstruction project and instead of the $13-15 per hour they were making on my job, the law rquired them to be paid $30-34 per hour. One exception: the flagpersons (would be all female since government said they had to have to have female employees when working on government funded construction jobs) were only going to get something like $27.50 per hour for standing there. One of the worker's (sic) had a spouse who was going to be a flagperson and all of the other worker's (sic) were envious of him.

Correct me if I'm wrong, sir, but is not "prevailing wage" the median wage and not top dollar?

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

Davis-Bacon has been generally and consistently interpreted to mean union-scale wages.

[oltmannd]

Lately I've heard the statement made on this and other forums that the NEC is overcrowded with weekday passenger trains, especially the Philadelphia - Trenton segment.  From what I have observed, that is certainly true. 

Assuming money were no object (lol).  What in your opinions would be the best way to remedy this error, especially in the light of many people predicting more of a shift from air shuttles to NEC travel? 

I've though of things like:  (a) adding a track, if feasible; (b) stiffen "time-of-day" fares on Amtrak to further steer people toward early a.m. and p.m. service; or (c) is it possible to get beyond CTC technologically?  The new Wabtech system, something like that? 

NJT is one agency that seems to be ready for growth because they are slowly shifting over passenger equipment on NEC (and other of their lines) from mono- to bi-level coaches. 

I'm sure you'll have ideas of your own........ 

 

Longer trains.

[JT22CW]

Longer trains require longer platforms, and of course more power to move said trains. Further, if your doors aren't the right size (or number per car), station dwell times go up.

I recall David Gunn expressing a desire to lengthen the Acela Express trainsets to nine passenger cars each. Thus far, none of his successors have mentioned the idea again; nor have there been any move towards coupling two AE trainsets together on one train, which is certainly possible, and which would mimic the practice of other countries.

[Paul Milenkovic]

What about double deckers?  They have them in France and in Japan, and I think those double deckers are lower profile than Superliner cars so they can fit under the catenary.

[JT22CW]

 

Well nowadays, we have NJT's multi-level cars, which can fit under the NEC's lowest profiles. They measure 14 feet 6 inches above the railhead.
Highest seating capacity, per NJT's press release, is 142 in coaches sans restrooms, 132 seats in coach with restrooms, and 127 seats in cab cars with restrooms. The cab cars actually have two fewer seats than the original Budd Silverliners.

IIRC, the TGV Duplex is approximately a foot taller than these multi-levels; also, the TGV Duplex's entrance doors are built specifically for low platforms, so they'd have to go to one of the waterfront terminals were they to serve New York.

[al-in-chgo]

 

Well nowadays, we have NJT's multi-level cars, which can fit under the NEC's lowest profiles. They measure 14 feet 6 inches above the railhead.
Highest seating capacity, per NJT's press release, is 142 in coaches sans restrooms, 132 seats in coach with restrooms, and 127 seats in cab cars with restrooms. The cab cars actually have two fewer seats than the original Budd Silverliners.

IIRC, the TGV Duplex is approximately a foot taller than these multi-levels; also, the TGV Duplex's entrance doors are built specifically for low platforms, so they'd have to go to one of the waterfront terminals were they to serve New York.

I've had the privilege of riding the new NJT bilevels and had the smoothest ride of my life in the USA. 

[JT22CW]

Getting back to high-speed bilevels again...the only one that would match the NEC height-wise would be the E1 and E4 Shinkansen trainsets; however, these are 11' 3" wide, so it'd scrape the sides of the high platforms.

[al-in-chgo]

Getting back to high-speed bilevels again...the only one that would match the NEC height-wise would be the E1 and E4 Shinkansen trainsets; however, these are 11' 3" wide, so it'd scrape the sides of the high platforms.

  

It's a pity, especially because those darn Amfleet coaches seem to have problems in the other direction.  I had to practically leap into my coach in Newark and then at Philly, so many people were leaving that the conductor got smart and extended the "disability" apron from the coach, allowing for no gaps at all. 

[Grand Ave]

AL,UNFORTANELY YU ARE RIGHT AND DONT THINK IT WILL CHANGE SOON.IN ADDITON TO THE HOURLY NYC-WASH, SVC, NYC-PHILS-HARRISBURG SVE,NJ TRANSIT ALSO USES  THE SAME TRACKS BETWEEN NYC-PJ=HILA,REPLACING THE FORMER "CLOCKER" SERVICE HAN AMTRAK USE TO OPERATE.THERE ISNT ANY ROOM ESPECIALLY IN THE NJ SUBS TO BUILD ADDITIONAL TRACKS,BUT ALL IN ALL THEY DO A DAMN GOOD JOB.THE LAST TIME I RODE FRONM NYC TO SC ON THE SILVER METEOR LINE WE WERE HELD UP 3 HRS BEFORE WE GR IN TO D.C., AND OF COURSE THE TIME WAS NEV ER MADE UP. THE ONLY SOLUTION I CAN SEE IS TAKE SOME OF THE TRAINS OFF,BUT SINCE THEY AR3E IN GREAT COMPETITION WITH THE AIRLINES DONT THINLK THATWILL HAPPEN ANYTIME IN OUR LIFETIME. SEE YOU SOME DAY,SORRY YOU CANT MAKE IT TO K.C ON THE 8TH OF DEC,

GRAND AVE,

[al-in-chgo]

Amtrak et al do indeed do a da*n job of juggling the NEC, but both the infrastructure and the passenger loads (Amtrak, anyway) are stretched to the max. 

If new passengers emerge, and they probably will, "something's got to give."

Are there any standing proposals that address this mess?  Other than hiking Amtrak fares the umpteenth time on the NEC? 

[oltmannd]

Longer trains require longer platforms, and of course more power to move said trains. Further, if your doors aren't the right size (or number per car), station dwell times go up.

I recall David Gunn expressing a desire to lengthen the Acela Express trainsets to nine passenger cars each. Thus far, none of his successors have mentioned the idea again; nor have there been any move towards coupling two AE trainsets together on one train, which is certainly possible, and which would mimic the practice of other countries.

The typical NEC regional train is 6-9 cars, but some are as many as 12-13 cars at peak times, so I suspect that most trains have some room to grow w/o encountering a platform lenght issue. 

It's easier to lengthen a relatively small number of platforms than it is to do the track & signal work needed to run more trains.

[oltmannd]

 

Well nowadays, we have NJT's multi-level cars, which can fit under the NEC's lowest profiles. They measure 14 feet 6 inches above the railhead.
Highest seating capacity, per NJT's press release, is 142 in coaches sans restrooms, 132 seats in coach with restrooms, and 127 seats in cab cars with restrooms. The cab cars actually have two fewer seats than the original Budd Silverliners.

IIRC, the TGV Duplex is approximately a foot taller than these multi-levels; also, the TGV Duplex's entrance doors are built specifically for low platforms, so they'd have to go to one of the waterfront terminals were they to serve New York.

I've had the privilege of riding the new NJT bilevels and had the smoothest ride of my life in the USA. 

...on some of the smoothest track in North America!

[alphas]

JT22CW,

CSSHEGEWISCH is correct.   The so-called prevailing wage somehow always turns out to be the top union wage.   When the feds/states compute the data, it ends up skewed to the top due to the criteria they use.   Its a major joke in my immediate area since the only jobs paying anywhere near the prevailing wage are the actual government jobs it applies to.   And it hasn't helped the unions at all--the local construction companies are all non-union who only pay the "prevailing wage rates" when they are working on the government funded jobs.  [Otherwise my driveway paving (long driveway) would have required a 2nd mortgage on my house!]   

[daveklepper]

Expanding capacity Newark - Philadelphia can be done most easily via West Trenton and Jenkintown.   NJT now plans to restore suburban service between Newark and West Trenton, and SEPTA operates electrified suburban service West Trenton - Philadelphia (Market East, Broad Street Suburban, and then 30th Street), and this line could be upgraded to high speed standards.

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

Expanding capacity Newark - Philadelphia can be done most easily via West Trenton and Jenkintown.   NJT now plans to restore suburban service between Newark and West Trenton, and SEPTA operates electrified suburban service West Trenton - Philadelphia (Market East, Broad Street Suburban, and then 30th Street), and this line could be upgraded to high speed standards.

Some minor problems:  the line is NOT electrified between Newark and West Trenton, and it hasn't seen any through service since the last remnants of the "Wall Street" and "Crusader" (both equipped with RDC's) were discontinued some years ago.

[al-in-chgo]

Expanding capacity Newark - Philadelphia can be done most easily via West Trenton and Jenkintown.   NJT now plans to restore suburban service between Newark and West Trenton, and SEPTA operates electrified suburban service West Trenton - Philadelphia (Market East, Broad Street Suburban, and then 30th Street), and this line could be upgraded to high speed standards.

Some minor problems:  the line is NOT electrified between Newark and West Trenton, and it hasn't seen any through service since the last remnants of the "Wall Street" and "Crusader" (both equipped with RDC's) were discontinued some years ago.

 

 

Well, if push comes to shove it's comforting to know that an alternate route is available.  I don't know if anyone has mentioned this already, but another route exists between D.C. and Baltimore -- I believe it was B&O before the last couple waves of mergermania.  -  al