Here is a picture that illustrates a train in the same class: http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=376039&nseq=13
Interestingly, the front power nodule has two 4-wheeled trucks, while the diesel unit has just one, and a one axle truck supporting the back end and the front of the first car. Might this have something to do with pulling the rest of the train off the tracks? It seems like having a coupling and two 4-wheeled trucks would be easier on maintenance, (detach the whole unit for service) and safer in an accident.
NW
http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=376039&nseq=13
This view is very informative. Somehow I was under the impression that this train had only a diesel at one end. If it had a diesel at the other end that may have been heavy enough to cause the train set to acordian ? Is the diesel much heavier than the talgo cars ? BTW --- personally I do not like the single axel Talgos. Something for investigators to look at.
Another item none of us have mentioned is distracted driving. The investigators will certainly look at that possibility especially a Chatsworth type distraction ?
blue streak 1 http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=376039&nseq=13 This view is very informative. Somehow I was under the impression that this train had only a diesel at one end. If it had a diesel at the other end that may have been heavy enough to cause the train set to acordian ? Is the diesel much heavier than the talgo cars ? BTW --- personally I do not like the single axel Talgos. Something for investigators to look at. Another item none of us have mentioned is distracted driving. The investigators will certainly look at that possibility especially a Chatsworth type distraction ?
Saw a video clip of the wrecking operations - one of the cars was lifted onto a normal appearing flat bed trailer to be moved away from the scene. The crane did not appear to be 'heavy duty' in lifting the car and the trailer appeared to be your everyday flat bed - nothing heavy duty about it either.
There will be many engineering lessons to be learned in any number of areas from this incident.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Overmod oltmannd Whether you would get a warning and penalty brake for a reduced speed curve would depend on whether the cab signal system was being used for "civil" speed restrictions as well as block signals. in the US, cab signals are typically NOT used for curves or other civil speed restrictions, just block occupancy and interlocking routes. You would get a "clear" in the cab as long a the blocks ahead were unoccupied, regardless of the approaching 9 degree curve. Note the post in General Discussions that mentions the type and character of safety systems involved, notably ASFA on the section where the accident occurred. Someone knowledgeable about the details might comment on why the high-speed train control system did not command a reduction to the lower track speed prior to entering the older section. I understand that ASFA is like the American ATS in that it only automates braking on signal indication, not overspeed (according to Reuters, it alerts the engineman but does not command braking). Can someone provide a full technical description of the operation of the Spanish systems?
oltmannd Whether you would get a warning and penalty brake for a reduced speed curve would depend on whether the cab signal system was being used for "civil" speed restrictions as well as block signals. in the US, cab signals are typically NOT used for curves or other civil speed restrictions, just block occupancy and interlocking routes. You would get a "clear" in the cab as long a the blocks ahead were unoccupied, regardless of the approaching 9 degree curve.
Whether you would get a warning and penalty brake for a reduced speed curve would depend on whether the cab signal system was being used for "civil" speed restrictions as well as block signals.
in the US, cab signals are typically NOT used for curves or other civil speed restrictions, just block occupancy and interlocking routes. You would get a "clear" in the cab as long a the blocks ahead were unoccupied, regardless of the approaching 9 degree curve.
Note the post in General Discussions that mentions the type and character of safety systems involved, notably ASFA on the section where the accident occurred.
Someone knowledgeable about the details might comment on why the high-speed train control system did not command a reduction to the lower track speed prior to entering the older section. I understand that ASFA is like the American ATS in that it only automates braking on signal indication, not overspeed (according to Reuters, it alerts the engineman but does not command braking). Can someone provide a full technical description of the operation of the Spanish systems?
Here's some info regarding the Spanish 'ASFA' system. As it has been said, it was (and in some manner it still is) a 'classic' cab signal system. But in its later versions it evolved into a more complete system, giving not only the usual signal 'aspect' information, but also controlling braking curves (in order to provide a 'smooth' braking), but also line speed, and even speed restrictions.
Wikipedia info : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anuncio_de_Se%C3%B1ales_y_Frenado_Autom%C3%A1tico
Ferropedia (spanish site, spanish only) : http://www.ferropedia.es/wiki/ASFA
From the original maker, Invensys/Dimetronic (Spanish only) : http://www.dimetronic.es/wps/wcm/connect/d8acc680400dc20d98c7990adc41b882/ASFA+TBS+castellano.pdf?MOD=AJPERES&CACHEID=d8acc680400dc20d98c7990adc41b882
blue streak 1 CNN has a 26 still pictuures and some video http://www.cnn.com/2013/07/27/world/europe/spain-train-crash/index.html?hpt=hp_t2 mario; Several questions. 1. Do yo kow if the disel has a significanly higher cerner of gravity that may have precipated it going off the track ? Maybe a calculated tipping speed for standard guage and wide guage ? 2. Does the diesel provide power to the lead loc's inverters ? 3. Any idea of the KW ( HP ) of the diesel ? 4. At one time there was a report that a bystander walking her dog was killed any truth ?
CNN has a 26 still pictuures and some video
http://www.cnn.com/2013/07/27/world/europe/spain-train-crash/index.html?hpt=hp_t2
mario; Several questions.
1. Do yo kow if the disel has a significanly higher cerner of gravity that may have precipated it going off the track ? Maybe a calculated tipping speed for standard guage and wide guage ?
2. Does the diesel provide power to the lead loc's inverters ?
3. Any idea of the KW ( HP ) of the diesel ?
4. At one time there was a report that a bystander walking her dog was killed any truth ?
As far as the train's carachteristics are concerned, there's an excelent reference, but its in Spanish. Here's the link : http://www.ferropedia.es/wiki/Renfe_Serie_730
As it is explained there, these trains are a batch of 15 that have been adapted to have a diesel engine in a 'coach' behind the electric TRAXX power car. When the diesel is activated, the electric locos became slugs (the truck in this second car is just for weight purposes), and also all secondary services are fed by it, meaning that power available for traction purposes is reduced, as well as its maximum operational speed (180 Kmhr / 112 Mph). Judging by the type of engine and general configuration, it must not be much different from the new Cascades power cars. As for the higher centre of gravity, indeed these diesel 'modules' (as I prefer to call it ), its true, but after seeing the derailment movie for a lot of times, I would say that the power combo, in a first moment seems to hold itself well, until the first to (very) leighweight passenger modules cames out of the curve obeys the laws of physics, and by means of a big torsion move (the diesel module has an axle that serves as support for the first passenger module) gets the diesel side of the power car out of track, and by consequence the TRAXX unit.
As for a pdestrin 'kill' on the trackbed/track space, that would be almost impossible, since the line is fenced from both sides (mandatory in HSLs over here) and it would be something that woyld be imeediately detected (by thesurveillance camera that got all the accident). Only if the car that jumped more than 30 ft got anyone when it was 'flying' and landed in a contiguous square, but also that has been denied by the mayor of the little borough next to track
Sam1 Mario_v, This is a very informative post. Hopefully you can answer a few of questions. Are you an engineer? And do you live in Spain? How is the train able to switch from one gauge to another? Can it do so whilst it is moving? If the engineer is found guilty of negligent homicide, what are the likely consequences under Spanish law? Thanks
Mario_v,
This is a very informative post. Hopefully you can answer a few of questions.
Are you an engineer? And do you live in Spain?
How is the train able to switch from one gauge to another? Can it do so whilst it is moving?
If the engineer is found guilty of negligent homicide, what are the likely consequences under Spanish law?
Thanks
Hello Sam1
Question 1 - I'm not an engineer, but some years ago I worked as a railroader in my country's railway, and due to specifics of the job (I worked in the motive power & scheduling department), I was 'forced' to do a lot of cab rides and 'terrain' inspection. As matter of effect, I'm living 'next' to Spain, I'm Portuguese, but during my railway years and in leisure time I'd travel a lot in the spanish rail system, and Galicia, where the accident happened is quite close, so I've experienced all the 'changes & upgrades' (which are still far from complete).
Question 2 - Talgo trains & locomotives (belonging to Bombardier's TRAXX family)and other trains (railcars and 'Bitrac' locomotives built by CAF), are capable of changing gauge in a completely automatic process, and can do it 'on the fly' although at very reduced speed (no more that 12 Mph). There's a video that I'm going to add showing how that is done.
Question 3 - Although the engined pledged himseflf guilty, something that hasn't yet been totally proofed, it will get a hevy penalty, 25 to 25 years.
The gauge change video : watch?v=y8N7Ikw87tM
Some miscelaneous facts I caught up in the news relatad with the accident
1) Just before the curve the HSL has a big straight section 50 miles long, in wich the maximu speed permitted is 'limited' to 137 Mph (on paper it says 180, but without ERTMS, a 'digital' version of ÃASFA is in use, with wayside signals, hence the limit) ;
2) The Autonomous govenment of Galicia and also the Engineers syndicate had complained to RENFE/ADIF about the fact of the speed in the area being too high, mentioning that the reduction in speed should be pulled back 6 miles and not only 2,5. The syindicate also presented a formal complaint in justice against Renfe, due to pressures to accomplish things as they are, without considering the perception of who works on the terrain ;
3) The engineer in cause was known by his colleagues as a 'snail' because it would start accomplishing speed restrictions earlier than everybody, meaning that 'his' trains would always get late ;
4) The train was sibmitted to a complete check up' just days before ;
5) The train that passed before (2 hours) reported trouble in the signal system in the same place (went into emergency braking) ;
6) 'Black boxes' to be opened today ;
7) Alledgedly the engineer pledged guilty due to 'distraction' (his words)
Mario_v
The gauge change video is fantastic. Without it I doubt that I would have grasped so quickly how it works.
All the best,
Sam1
The speed of the gauge change is amazing - my bigger question is how are the wheels secured on the axle to mantain whatever gauge has been set? Additionally, what is the wear rate on the wheel/axle combination as compared to a standard wheel axle set?
BaltACD The speed of the gauge change is amazing - my bigger question is how are the wheels secured on the axle to mantain whatever gauge has been set? Additionally, what is the wear rate on the wheel/axle combination as compared to a standard wheel axle set?
Normally the wheels, during the process, in case of Talgos (independent) are loose. In other cases (CAF), the axles are telescopic, meaning that the wheels are also loose when changing. In terms of wear, I do not have any info about it, but I suppose its not much different from 'regular' wheelsets
Just to add another fact, the line in cause has ERTMS but it's not in use. And in the place where the accident happened is where the ASFA TBS (a modernised version of ASFA that contrls speed and braking curves) ends. From there and in a short section about 5 miles long the system used is the so called 'classical' ASFA (dating back to 1978), wich is a plain cab signal system controling only signal aspects
narig01This has been in the news : http://bigstory.ap.org/article/spanish-police-open-crash-train-black-boxes?utm_medium=email&utm_source=newsletter&utm_campaign=cheatsheet_afternoon&cid=newsletter%3Bemail%3Bcheatsheet_afternoon&utm_term=Cheat%20SheetIf someone could link the above. Seems like the driver was talking on a cell phone.Rgds IGN
It appears the phone conversation was with onboard personnel. Engineer appears to have passed 3 signals calling for speed reductions - without reducing speed.
http://news.yahoo.com/spain-driver-received-3-signals-141125141.html
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