The Second Avenue Subway - NYC

[Anonymous]

As a New Yorker, I would like to open up a place for people to talk about the Second Avenue Subway, and its effects both positive and negative. And for anyone who has questions about it, feel free to ask them here too.

For those who don't know, the Second Ave. Subway was a plan first implemented in the 1920's by the IND, one of the companies running the subway system back then (this is the public system). However, it never really got off of its feet, until now... and it still might not work. However, the Upper East Side, the main focus of the new line, hasn't stopped growing and won't stop for anything, and the need for the (T), as it will be called, won't be slowing down anytime soon. 

[daveklepper]

It will work, but not as well as it should.   The only service to be provided when it opens is extension of the "Q" north from 57th and Sevewnth Avenue to 96th Street and 2nd Avenue.   This means that people, say east of Lexington Avenue, from 59th Street north to 100th Steet (approximately) will opt for riding this line to the financial and business areas, instead of the "6" Lexington Avenue local, which is usually crowded by people off the Pelham Bay line that don't change to already crowded 4 and 5 expresses at 125th Street.

 

The plan now is to eventually build the line north to turn west to interchange with the Lexington Avenue line at 125h Street.   I think this is stupid.   The line should continue north, under the Harlem River, and "capture" the Pelham Bay line, which has tunnels and elevated structure that was "City Built" to handle the larger B Division (IND BMT) cars, even though used now by the smaller A-Division (IRT) "6" trains.   This will give Bronx Pelham Bay riders a fast one-seat ride to lower Manhattan, eventually with a choice of the BMT Broadway line via Times Square or dirctly down 2nd Avenue, and then the Lexington Avenue local tracks can be devoted to the local east side passengers without their carrying the longer distance riders from the Bronx.   The tracks between 3rd Avenue and 149th Street and the "Hub" at Westchester and Webstger and 149th would be used by a shuttle service.

[martin.knoepfel]

Am I wrong or does the second-avenue-subway follow the route of a former elevated? IIRC, why did they abandon the elevated? Most probably, it would have been much cheaper to keep it in service.

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

I'm sure that some New Yorkers could expound on this much better but the Manhattan Els were removed in part because they duplicated existing parallel subway lines, in part because they had few connections with the rest of the IRT, and in part because they were relatively lightly built and could not support the heavier equipment that came into service.

[daveklepper]

The lightly built answer is incorrect, because the BMT had already designed and had sample euipment in passenger operation, before 1940's unification, that solved the problem, and the IRT would have adapted those designs for their elevateds.   Duplication of subway lines, some built by the city specifically to replace elevated lines, was indeed the main reason.  Most strictly elevated lines ceased operation on unification in 1940.   Part of the 2nd Avenu elevated continued to run until 1942 because of major traffic from Queens, but its particular steel was considered more valuable for the war effort.   The crowding of the Lexington Avenue subway started when the 3rd Avenue elevated in Manhattan was discontinued.  This left the East Side with only one major north-south line, the Lexington Avenue Line, with its four tracks, while the West Side divided traffic between the Broadway - 7th Avenue line, and the 8th Avenue line with its 6th Avenue branch.   Thus the real need for the Second Avenue subway.

[conductortrainee]

As I was a station agent for six months on the Lexington Avenue line, I know first hand how overcrowded it is; the new Second Avenue line will certainly help out. However, the Lexington Avenue line will be completely paralyzed if the MTA extends Long Island Rail Road service to Grand Central Terminal before the Second Avenue line is complete. Such a situation would send up to 30,000 more people a day--by some estimates--onto the Lexington Avenue line at a time when it will be operating far, far above capacity (as it is doing even now). Forlorn a hope as this may be, I hope that the MTA is accounting for this possibility in its plans to improve service on the East Side.

[daveklepper]

I agree with the previous posting.   And, indeed, the most crowded part of the Lex subway, the part between the CityHall Financial Area and Grand Central, will be paralleled by the 2nd Avenue subway ONLY at a later stage, initially all 2nd Avenue trains will be forced to detour via the 6th Avenue subway or BMT Broadway line, missing GCT.

 

Which is why the following are very  good ideas:

1.  Light Rail GCT - City hall missing heaviest traffic via conversion of the "Park Avenue Vehicular Tunnel" back to its original rail use.

 2.  West side, Penn Station, access for the Hudson and New Haven Lines, the first via through service with the LIRR and the second via through service with NJT.

[JT22CW]

Am I wrong or does the second-avenue-subway follow the route of a former elevated?

There was indeed a Second Avenue elevated line.  It was abandoned in the early 1940s, during the reign of anti-rail and pro-bus/pro-airline mayor Fiorello LaGuardia.  (This page has an interesting article about the SAE's demolition, as well as the nasty lobbying tactics thereof—look on the second page for an organization called the "First Avenue Association".)

why did they abandon the elevated? Most probably, it would have been much cheaper to keep it in service.

There was a prevailing mentality that favored subways over elevated railroads, without a thought to heritage or future need, but plenty of thought for the "noise" and perceived "eyesores" and whatnot.  The original elevated lines were on Second, Third, Sixth and Ninth Avenues (the Ninth Avenue line being the oldest, dating from about 1867).  All were removed without any consideration for replacement with subway, except for the Sixth Avenue line, which obstructed the planned Hudson & Manhattan Railroad's path for the unbuilt extension to Grand Central Terminal.

[daveklepper]

Only partially correct:

9th Avenue El:   replaced by 8th Avenue subway

6th Avenue El    replaced by 6th Avenue subway

Fulton Street (Brooklyn) El:   Replaced by 8th Avenue subway extension on Fulton Street with outer end of el structure to Lefferts Ave used by A train today.

2nd and 3rd Avenue Els.   Planning for 2nd Avenue subway started long before closing of 2nd Avenue El in 1940 and 1942.   Just not built.   Crowding on Lexington Avenue Subway.

Fifth Avenue and Bay Ridge El (Brooklyn)   Replaced by increased capacity in 4th Avenue subway, which did handle the extra traffic with (evnetually) improved signalling and reconstruction of the DeKalb Avenue Junction to avoid level crossings.

Myrtle Avenue (downtown portion) and Lexington Avenue Els, Brooklyn:   Buses

3rd Avenue El in The Bronx:   Huge increase in local service in Metro North Harlem Cut, promised but not delivered, again buses.   Some improvement in Harlem Cut service lately.

That about covers all the els.

[JT22CW]

9th Avenue El:   replaced by 8th Avenue subway

I wouldn't call that a replacement by any stretch.  Certainly it was a first for 8th Avenue, but a major loss for 9th.  Further, the 8th Avenue line south of Columbus Circle no longer has any direct access to any part of the Bronx (the C service was replaced by rush-hour B trains).

And unless I'm mistaken, we weren't covering all the els here?

[daveklepper]

I am talking about intent.  The intent of the Eighth venue subway was clearly to put the 9th Avenue El out of business, and the branch for Sixth Avenue was part of the original plans although built later.   From 14th Street Station to the 103rd Street Station, the subway and el were just one long block apart.   Again, discussing intent, that is why as soon as the Concourse line was completed (within  year after the orginal opening to Washington Heights), the 24 hours a day local service to the Bronx (the CC) began.   To me, running the B to the Concourse and the C to Washington Heights is an error.   The original subway planners had it right, that both 6th Avenue and 8th Avenue would have one-seat service (extended rush hours) to both The Bronx and Washington Heights.    The excuse the TA gives is that the current arrangement reduces deadheading for maintenance and keeps cars with similar equipment together.  YOu figure out what is more important!

110th Street to 125th, the El and the subway were both on 8th Avenue.  155th saw them together, and stations between 125th and 155th were closeby.

The original Hudson Terminal southern terminal for 8th Avenue locals was not supposed to permenantly be the southern terminal, but the two tracks were to have been extended south.  The construction of the World Trade Center blocked that from being a possibility.

 

And the eight avenue subway clearly could handle all the traffic from the 9th Avenue el and then some!    To bad the East Soide didn't get the same kind of break!