The NEC over ex-DL&W main is quite east of the Sawtooth bridges, weat of Harrison PATH Station. The fact that NJT is coupling the direct-Hoboken project with bridge replacement suggest that the new bridges will be so configired as to have the over-and-under stuff wikll be just east of the bridges. If memory is correct, currently there are six gtracks through Harrison PATH Station, the most northern and southern, with third rail and (at leat at one time if not now) catenary, used mostly or entirely by PATH, and the center four by NJT, Amtrak, and Conrail-Shared-Assets, the northern two usually westbound, and te southern two usually eastbound. I may be wrong, but I believe that when Harrison Station was rebuilt, possibly even before, there was left space for one or two additional tracks. One or two of the southern catenary-only tracks would be for trains to-and-from Hoboken.
daveklepperWhat about Raritan [note sp.] Valley trains? Does the current time table show any to and from Hoboken?
Perhaps unsurprisingly given what we know, there is no scheduled train from Hoboken back to Raritan -- you have to go via a change at Lautenberg.
https://content.njtransit.com/sites/default/files/RVL-WKDY-111223.pdf
Before the Covid cut-backs, there wsere several Jersey Shore trains to-and-from Hoboken.
What about Rariton Valley trains? Does the current time table show any to and from Hoboken?
As of Monday 12/18/23, New Jersey Transit shows no through service from Hoboken to anywhere on either the North Jersey coast.
There is connecting service via Secaucus Junction/Lautenberg, but that doesn't count for our purposes.
That there is a 'reverse Kearny connector' is not in question, although I'd like to know what it is 'officially' called, and see a track chart (or annotated satellite picture) of the precise routing.
It will be interesting to see how they provide the promised 'connector' westbound from Hoboken to Newark without crossovers at grade. There is no real room for a 'flyunder' where I think this is, and a flyover a la North Brunswick will be awfully far up in the air with heavy access grades...
Again, there is a single-track "Reverse Kearny Connection." with regilarly scheduled Bay Head - Newark - Hoboken diesel pulled or pushed service. Possibly from Rariton Valley as well. Weekdays at least, unsure of weekends. Someone can check the timetables and report.
Immediately after the WTC-Pentagon Terror, PATH did run frequent Newark - Herald Square service, and repeated this after Sandy flooding, since both times the Exchange Place - WTC tunnels were out, first with the WTC station destroyed and the second with the tunnels flooded. To save train reversal time on pocket tracks or at terminals, two engineers for entire trips are not the only solution. Drop-back assignments are possible, the engineer taking the following train, or hostler motormen may be used. In Newark, the hostler would take the train to the pocxket tracks west of the station, while the engineer walks throgh the train to the east end, then the hostler wsould ride the cab east the station, while the engineer takes the train eastbound.
For Herald Square, the hostler would board at 14th or 23rd Street.
street.
daveklepperOf course, if New Jersey access to and from Penn Sta. were blocked, PATH probably would add a Newark - Herald Square service.
One dramatically cost-effective approach would be to design and build a quick way to get a motorman from one end of the platform to the other for one of those 'round-robin' trains going from Newark to Hoboken. Substantial savings over having to keep 'two motormen' on those trains at the necessary increased frequency to accommodate NEC traffic would pay for nearly any alternative in a short time, and then it would offer a quick enhancement for any train that would be 'well patronized' at the time...
I note with some amusement that many of the arguments for adopting 'through running' at NYP would also apply for PATH trains serving increased volume at Hoboken (from a presumed NEC connection)...
blue streak 1 Once the project is complete will that allow full access to Hoboken if access to NYP is constrained or completely down?
Once the project is complete will that allow full access to Hoboken if access to NYP is constrained or completely down?
Can someone provide a track chart through the Sawtooth scope of work?
As I recall the "Kearny Reverse Connector", there is access out of Newark to Hoboken via the electrified ex-Lackawanna* (Morristown line?), but to provide reverse service westbound any train has to cross something like 4 tracks, at grade, on crossovers. Scheduling this safely with the anticipated congestion might require effective CBTC. Remediating that with something like a flyover might cost more than the option is worth, even if it facilitates taking first one, then the other North River Tunnel out of service for remediation as soon as Gateway is open.
Once you get to Hoboken, there are limited effective options for getting Penn Station-level traffic to Manhattan. Perhaps a Dunkirk-level provision of various watercraft to do ferry duty? Unless there is some additional construction of PATH facilities, it would not be easy to implement additional 'shuttle' service between Hoboken Terminal and Manhattan points -- and I tremble to think of what might be involved with trying bus shuttling through the Holland Tunnel, even if implementing draconian rush-hour toll pricing on the Holland and Lincoln Tunnel traffic.
*(Which as I recall is 25kV 60Hz as rebuilt, so not directly compatible with at least some of the commuter equipment...)
Of course, if New Jersey access to-and-frrom Penn Sta. were blocked, PATH probably would add a Newark - HeRAld Square service.
Right. And Honoken has direct one-seat service to both Herald Square ("33rd St. Sta." actually at 32nd) and the World Trade Center. Newark, PATH only the latter; change at Journal Sq., Jersey City for Herald Sq.
samfp1943 Admittedly, it is a public access site, and has a lot of their public Info and propaganda(?). It does lay out the NJT System; It seems that the Hoboken Statioin will continue to be a stub-end affair. Most likely, will continue toi rely on a service to NYC by River Ferry boats(?).
Admittedly, it is a public access site, and has a lot of their public Info and propaganda(?). It does lay out the NJT System; It seems that the Hoboken Statioin will continue to be a stub-end affair. Most likely, will continue toi rely on a service to NYC by River Ferry boats(?).
The connection between Hoboken and Manhattan has long been provided by PATH.
There certainly is a high-speed connection, and some diesel Jersey Shore trains from Bar Head and possibly some Rariton Valley NJT trains use it to begin and end runs at Hoboken. It uses what is called the "Reverse Kearny Connection." When I rode it in 1994, eshewing the chartered buses between one AGO convention recital site and another, it was single track and without catenary. Is the Newark - Penn Station still 25 Hz or is it now 60Hz?
Of course, PATH provides a high-capacity Manhattan - Newark connection.
The train I rode was diesel-hauled and had come from Bay Head.
blue streak 1Once the project is complete will that allow full access to Hoboken if access to NYP is constrained or completely down?
Exchange Place of course has been gone since the early Sixties, and the property has been expensively redeveloped with the railroad approach taken out to where it would be cost-prohibitive to try to restore it. I do not know if the 'improved' route to a cross-harbor freight tunnel would offer anything meaningful for 'alternative connection' around to the east end of NYP via the Connecting Railroad.
blue streak 1 Once the project is complete will that allow full access to Hoboken if access to NYC is constrained or completely down?
Once the project is complete will that allow full access to Hoboken if access to NYC is constrained or completely down?
The 'Plan' presented; mentions the initial project's 'seed' money, and sort of lays out the final expectations; as well as, what is anticipated to be'the route' for the achievment of the final result. with many of these multi-agency, and political entities' achievements; the result will come in several years, and after a proper amount of "political knashing of teeth" ,and its' attendant "'gris-gris" .
West of Newark Penn-Sta. Six tracks cross the river there. If one double-track structure is replaced by a four track, there will be eight.
I doubt this will be done. Probaly two of the three double-track bridges will be replaced by one four-track.
see linked @ https://www.progressiverailroading.com/amtrak/news/Amtrak-launches-procurement-for-Sawtooth-Bridges-replacement-project--70694
Found the above linked article in Progressive Rail [ on -line edition] dated: 11/21/2023
FTA:"...Amtrak, in coordination with New Jersey Transit, has begun the procurement process for the Sawtooth Bridges replacement project in the Northeast Corridor (NEC).The project involves modernizing and expanding 1.9 miles of the NEC in Kearny, New Jersey, that was built in 1907. The project, which includes replacing and expanding the Sawtooth Bridges, is a part of the Gateway Program to preserve and expand the corridor's busiest section.The Federal Railroad Administration (FRA) recently awarded the project a $133.32 million grant to fund early construction activities.Owned by Amtrak, the Sawtooth Bridges carry more than 400 Amtrak and NJ Transit trains per day over tracks used by NJ Transit, Port Authority-Trans Hudson and Conrail trains. When completed, the new four-track NEC structure will double track capacity. The age and current condition of the Sawtooth Bridges restrict train speeds to a maximum of 60 mph..."
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