Continued from 01.
The T7 runs through a tunnel under some runways just beyond the Orly station, and to our surprise (although good research would have probably indicated this), we ended up adjacent to the Musee Delta (https://museedelta.wixsite.com/musee-delta), whose most noted feature is its possession of both a retired Concorde supersonic aircraft and a Mirage fighter jet, which both capitalized on the Delta Wing (as opposed to Delta Airlines). This enabled us to get some photos of the trams sailing past the iconic airplanes.
Photos for previous posting. Bit-count too great for server to permit my edit on is thread,
David's missing pictures:
Two more:
Thanks!
No problem David. Glad to assist.
Don't get discouraged by those ganging up on you on the other thread. Your well thought out and respectful comments have run into a deranged mob.
Leave it alone, it will only get you put in moderation again or worse banned.
Their comments are crude and disrespectful.
The narrative and pictures by Jack May would be a lot more interesting if he were a forum member and we could ask questions.
I'll be glad to forward the questions. He does read the Forum on occasion. His decision not to participate is his. I respect that and perhaps you should also.
From David
Fwd: 03 - Paris, North andEast - 2018 Trip Report - Paris Part 3 May 13, 2018 continued from part 2. Upon arriving aboard a route 153 bus at Porte de Paris, which is astop on Metro Line 13, but also the southern terminal of tram routeT8, we boarded a car that was just changing ends and began to headnorthward. That T8 was marked for Epinay Orgemont, one of the outerterminal stations of the line, as it has two branches (the other goesto Villetaneuse Universite). Our ultimate destination is one of thetransfer points to the T11, the Ile de France's newest tramway, whichwas inaugurated on June 30, 2017. The T11 is unusual in a number of ways: it is strictly an orbitalline located wholly within the suburbs of Paris, and runs left-handedentirely on a railroad-style right-of-way under 25,000-volt ACcatenary. It is operated by a private consortium instead of the SNCF(which operates the T4 tram train) or the RATP (which is responsiblefor the other 8 tram lines). The 6.8-mile route with 7 stops openedbetween Epinay-sur-Seine and Le Bourget on July 1, 2017, as the firstsegment of what will be a much longer line. Originally called TramExpress Nord, it was constructed to intercept (and therefore serve todistribute passengers to and from) a large number of radial lines,including RER lines B, C and D, suburban rail route H, Metro lines 7and 13, tram route T8 and the currently under-construction high-speed(Grand Paris Express) metro lines 16 and 17. It, and its futureextensions at both ends (that are planned to be in service by 2027),will result in an 18-mile long route with 14 stops, intersecting 7more lines, including RER routes A and E, suburban rail routes J andL, Metro line 15 and tram routes T1 and T2, over a Satrouville toNoisy-le-Sec trajectory (seehttp://www.urbanrail.net/eu/fr/paris/paris-map-giant.png). The existing double-track line runs directly alongside the GrandeCeinture de Paris (outer belt) freight railroad,* as will its entiretyonce it is completed. The portion of that freight-only line, northand east of Paris, also consists of double track, and is electrifiedat 25,000 volts AC, the same as the new T11, making them compatible ina number of ways. In fact many say that the project to construct thetram-train was a way of killing two birds with one stone, benefitingthe territory in which it runs by creating a new passenger servicewhile improving the freight line, because all of its grade crossingswill have been eliminated once the entire line reaches fruition. *The Grand Ceinture was completed in the late 1800s as a cooperativeproject of the French army and the individual railroads serving Paris.Because of its distance from the city center, it did not have much inthe way of passenger service and by 1939 most of its trackage hadbecome freight only. But as the suburbs grew passenger servicegradually came back, first along the southern section that had beenelectrified at 1,500 v DC (when the RER was created, it became a partof Line C). Meanwhile, with the 25 kV electrification of SNCF linesto the north and later to the east, that voltage was applied to theremaining portion. Today, most of the railroad's fleet of electricmotors are dual-voltage. Karl-Heinz and I rode much of the southernportion of the circumfrential route on the previous day, from Rungisto Versailles via Massy Palaiseau. Now with demand for orbital travelgrowing, two additional tram-train lines will be added to the GrandCeinture's alignment, the T12 and T13, both currently underconstruction (the 12 taking the place of the railroad lines we rode). When thinking about applying this concept in the United States, theclosest networks that come to mind are the freight-only belt railroadsin the Chicago area, which intersect rail lines heading to the city,allowing shipments to be exchanged between the roads to avoid andbypass congested areas of the inner city. Names like the Baltimore &Ohio Chicago Terminal, Indiana Harbor Belt, Belt Railway of Chicagoand Elgin, Joliet & Eastern strike a note--and Metra floated aproposal to operate dMUs along the EJ&E about a decade or two ago, asthe STAR line. Unfortunately, interest has since died. Well, Parishas it! The T11's rolling stock consists of 15 Citadis Dualis tram-trainvehicles, 2.65 meters wide (like the equipment on the T3), which canrun in 2-car and 3-car trains (but during our visit in off-peak hours,were running as single units). The tram-train designation is used,but I consider it somewhat misleading, since the line does not operatein street traffic--the T11 doesn't even have grade crossings--but Isuspect the nomenclature was chosen because the cars are capable ofrunning under two different voltages, 750 v DC in urban-style traffic,plus the 25kV AC used by the T11. [Other Dualis LRVs run intram-train service on SNCF rights-of way in the Lyon area (750 vDC/1,500 v DC) and in the Nantes area (750 v DC/25,000 v AC), withneither currently using the 750 v option as they do not operate overthe tracks of their respective local tramways.] These Dualis trainsare capable of speeds of 62½ mph. Current schedules on the T11provide for a 5-minute frequency in rush hours (10 off-peak) andrunning time from end to end is 14 minutes, which computes to anaverage speed with stops of just under 30 mph. I would best describethe line as a modern light electric railway using interurban-likerolling stock. We rode the T8 back one-stop to Epinay sur-Seine, the T11's westernterminal and then after some photos, took the next T11 all the way tothe line's other end at Le Bourget. It was still cloudy, and here,prior to our boarding a return trip and while photographing at thejoint station with RER Line B (on different levels), my Navigo passwas inspected for the first (and only) time, and I was told in nouncertain terms to sign it, which I dutifully did. We then rode toVilletaneuse Universite, the terminal of the second branch of the T8,two stops in from our starting point at the other end of the line. Itis an enormous elevated station, with the tracks located below itsattractive concourse. We transferred to the T8 here and headed backtoward St. Denis. With the weather remaining cloudy we limited ourphotography to save time, feeling that were conditions to improve, wecould easily come back later. It did and we did, so here are someviews of the T11, dark in the morning and bright in the afternoon. The Le Bourget terminal of the T11, as seen from the unused platformof the station. All trains use the track on the north side to reverseends. Both the elevator and escalators to this platform were out ofservice, possibly their construction still incomplete (the line havingbeen opened one year before). The stairway at left leads down to amezzanine from which surface running RER line B can be accessed. Whenthe T11 is extended, this will be just a way station, and the twotrains seen in the background, waiting for the afternoon rush hourbefore going back into service, will have to lay over elsewhere. Asmentioned earlier despite the platform's incomplete access, the onlything that the authorities cared about was whether I had valid faremedia. With left-hand operation the single-car train is shown running in theeastbound direction away from the camera, which is being focused fromthe westbound platform of the Villetaneuse-Universite station. Above and below: Two views at the Villetaneuse-Universite station ofthe T11, which is relatively busy, being the transfer point betweenthe T8 and T11 routes, as well as a major traffic generator because itis frequented by students. It is rather monumental (not quite as muchas Secaucus on NJ Transit) with elevators and escalators connectingthe platforms and the superstructure above. The upper photo was takenat track level and shows an eastbound car entering the station. Thelower view was taken from the station's concourse, looking west. Thepair of tracks on the left, south of those of the T11, serve the GrandCeinture line, which carries freight trains. The next two photos show the same station, with the camera pointed atthe corresponding T8 terminal. Above and below: Additional views of the Villetaneuse-Universitytransfer point. The upper photo, showing an inbound T8 tram about toleave its terminal, was taken from the upper level of the stationbuilding. At left is the pedestrian approach to the structure, whichis more explicitly shown below. It consists of both a ramp andstairway, with elevator access as well, to and from the platform thatserves as the T8's outbound terminal. The lower photo also shows aninbound car loading passengers after it has returned from laying overunder the ramp. As mentioned earlier, the T8 divides into two branches. With an11-minute frequency on each, headways on the common section result inthe line's 5-section, 2.40-meter wide Citadis 302 trams coming byevery 5½ minutes in each direction. The T8, which opened in December2014, is 5.3 miles long and has 17 stops. As for the weather, we encountered the same issue with regard to theT8: cloudy on our first encounter, but sunny later when we rode itagain to go back to the T11. Above and below: Much of the T8 operates in grassed reservationbetween two roadways. The upper photo shows the rear of an outboundtram turning westward to cross under the SNCF and RER line D justafter stopping at the Delaunay-Belleville station, the last before theline splits into its two branches. The lower view was taken along RueMaurice Thorez, slightly to the south of the location of the upperphoto, just north of Paul Eluard stop. It still was overcast when we got to St. Denis (RER/SNCF), where theT8 crosses the T1 on a traditional double track diamond in the middleof a street. We immediately saw that the center portion of the T1,the first light rail line built in the Paris area, was out ofcommission due to track work, so we had no choice as to whichdirection to ride, being limited to a westward journey over the line's2012 extension. Tram route 1 was inaugurated in 1992, and immediatelybecame a tremendous success, opening the door for the expansion of theIle de France's tram system. The route was not the first in the newwave of French tramways, having been preceded by a line in Nantes(1985) which introduced the Alstom high-floor TFS-1.* But the nextsystems (Grenoble, Paris and Rouen) were soon to come, and wereequipped with 70-percent low-floor TFS-2 models, the first"accessible" units to operate in France. (The French systems thatfollowed employed Alstom Citadis virtually 100-percent low-floor carsor their counterparts from other manufacturers.) Now, 44 years later,the TFS-1s still see service in Nantes, while TFS-2s continue to runin Grenoble and Paris (but not for long, as new cars are on order),while the TFS-2s from Rouen are now carrying happy passengers inGaziantep, Turkey, the French city having replaced them with Citadis402 units in 2012. * Low-floor center sections were added later and the next orders camewith low-floor sections already installed (much like the modernhistory of LRVs in Dallas). It was obvious we couldn't ride eastward from the St. Denis stationof tram route T1. The TFS-2 tram shown here has arrived from LesCourtilles and changed ends, and is about to leave after having loadedits passengers. The T8 line crosses beyond the barriers. Theplatform at left was out of service during this period ofconstruction. When they first went into service, these cars werepainted in a silver color scheme, but were later redecorated into theofficial RATP livery. The entire T1 is now 11 miles long, with 36 stations and a fleet of35 TFS-2 cars, and in St. Denis alone the busy crosstown routeintersects the T8 and T5 tram routes along with Metro line 13. Werode to the end of the line at Asnieres-Gennevilliers Les Courtilles(Metro route 13), where we actually spied the clouds finallydissipating. So we immediately about faced and headed back to St.Denis, where we transferred to the T8 for a round-trip, as mentionedabove. After we completed our photographic efforts on the T8 and T11,we saw there was still plenty of light for another trip on the T1 foradditional photos. Above and below. Two views of the verdant western extension of theT1. The upper photo was taken near the Parc des Chanteraines stop,which lies along the southern end of one of the largest parks north ofthe Seine. Occupying over 200 acres, it has miles of landscapedwalking trails, meadows, gardens and groves, including ponds and onelarge lake. The location of the lower view is just east of the oldvillage of Gennevilliers, which has expanded and is now is endowedwith high-rise structures in business parks and new residential areasalong the tramway between Metro route 13 and RER line C. The greencarpet between and surrounding the rails is typical of modern FrenchLRT practice. Unlike New Orleans, whose neutral ground is notmaintained well enough to stay green, the ones in France are carefullygroomed to create an elegant and attractive habitat for their trams. Just west of the location of the previous photo is the village ofGennevilliers, which has retained its charm despite all the growthsurrounding it. Some might say the town is made even more pleasant byits local transportation. Pictured is its main street, Rue PierreTimbaud, which is too narrow to carry both tracks of the T1, so theeastbound rails are embedded in the pavement one block to the south.Jean-Pierre Timbaud, a nationalist and trade unionist, was shot, alongwith 26 other members of the resistance, by German invaders inretribution for the death of one of their commandants. All in all, we had a very good day, and returned to Gare du Nord andour hotel via RER line D from the center of St. Denis in rathercrowded rush-hour conditions. After another good French meal (Asianactually), we packed up to ready our departure the following morningand went to sleep. To be continued in segment 04.
There are many many more pictures that David sent .. it is difficult to get them formatted though this site but they can be emailed to anyone quite easily. If you would like to see about 20 more I suggest you PM to David and ask him to forward them to you. I'm certain he will be glad to comply.
It might be better if he gives you permission to e-mail them through PM. As I understand it he is severely bandwidth-limited, and may not have access to programs that reduce the size of a transmitted JPEG image, so it may make better sense for him to transmit the images once, and someone better connected to good Internet bandwidth send them on to the 'interested parties'.-
unexpected visit to hu and wifi-----
May 13, 2018 continued from part 2.
In the end. then, was Miningman's posting a waste of time? Absollutely not! I used Imgur for some of the photos from jpgs on my hard-drive. But then I found I could stay with thread, copy from the images Miningman posted, and use the edit button, past, and upgrade to place the photo in the right place in the text. Without Mingingman's posting the process would have taken two or three times as long using Imgur. The result: I had enough time to do the same for Jack May's second installment as well!
The experiment on posting pictures is so far a failure. Firefox shows no pictures at all; Opera shows 'broken image' icons in the experiment post and nothing at all in 'part 4'
I was amused to see Nungesser's Corner in a post -- many happy hours on the 78 before it was the 178, and at the Castle. Interestingly it has nothing whatsoever to do with Nungesser the WWI ace (in what I suspect was a series of 'Vieux Charles'*) and unsuccessful transatlantic flyer, for whom the street was almost certainly named; the New Jersey Nungesser owned a racetrack in the 19th Century which was the 'local landmark' giving the neighborhood its name (and fortuitously distinguishing it from Guttenberg).
Ask Jack if he noted any nearby street being named "Coli" after Nungesser's co-pilot in L'Oiseau Blanc -- apparently most of the street-naming was done out of national passion following their disappearance in 1927, not Nungesser's wartime defense of France, and you find the names together.
As a little 'aside', someone in New York published a fictitious account of Nungesser's triumphant arrival in town, and the stirring reception he received there. This apparently so enraged the French that Charles Lindbergh was advised to delay his flight several weeks. This seems a bit strange (the official Lindy legend often making much of the 'race' between contenders for the first solo flight) but that's the alleged connection.
*as pointed out in a later post, this just ain't so -- and I can't plead anything but stupidity, as I'd confused it since the 1960s.
Actually, "Vieux Charles" was Georges Guynemer's airplane, but that's OK, you remember Charles Nugesser, a great combat pilot and a fine, fun, and very colorful man to boot. That's good enough!
It's a tragedy "L'Oiseau Blanc" didn't make it to New York, but as Nungesser himself might have said, "C'est la vie!"
I remember reading about the ficticious account of Nungesser and Coli's arrival in New York. I'm tempted to say "Well, there's nothing new about 'fake news,' is there?" but that would be a bit unfair. More likely it was some editors attempt to "scoop" the competition that blew up in his face.
I hope to use Imgur again at the University tomorrow, and should be able to post both these Part 4 photos in the right places and the new Sydney Metro pictures.
Unhhappy it didn't work ouit. Carrying my laptop to the U at age 87 is a drag.
Flintlock76Actually, "Vieux Charles" was Georges Guynemer's airplane...
Oh my God, that's dumb! And I love WWI flying and aircraft, too, which makes it particularly amusing. For some reason I never asked the right question to distinguish the aircraft!
So far the best fuselage art I've seen for a WWI fighter was what Henry Forster had on his SPAD. Don't know if it's anywhere on the Web, and my copies of family pictures are buried impossibly in storage, but I believe Old Rhinebeck can provide a couple if you asked nicely. You'll relish it when you see it!
No problem, Mod-man! Easy mistake to make.
I've loved the First World War pilots and their aircraft since I was a kid in the 1960's, just around the time of the 50th Anniversary of WW1. Those men were my heroes, and nothing I've read about them since that time has caused me to change my opinon of them.
One odd thing though, when I was a kid I thought they looked old, but now that I'm 65 I look at photos of them and realize they weren't more than kids themselves!
I'll have to do some searching for Henry Forster's SPAD. It's an odd thing, but of all the varieties of WW1 fighters that have been replicated there aren't too many SPADS. Wonder why? Too complicated? I wouldn't think so.
For your enjoyment, here's two SPAD XIII videos, the first is one restored by the French, with "Stork" squadron markings and with a Hispaono-Suiza 220 HP engine, and the second a replica of the great Italian ace Francesco Baracca's SPAD. Both so beautiful it'll break your heart to look at them!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uPeycw_By4E
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74FbQLb-AqY
One last thing, the late Cole Palen (what a guy!) was once asked if he had to take any of the WW1 fighters in his collection out to fight someone, which one would he take?
Without hesitation he replied "The SPAD!
PS: Is this the Henry Forster you're speaking of?
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/91417484/henry-forster
Flintlock76Is this the Henry Forster you're speaking of?
It most certainly is.
He taught me about the right ways to fly a 220 in combat, and about the United States efforts after the War to get rid of the Bolsheviks (which of course conventional American history at the time didn't teach much about!) It was an honor to have known him, and every time I think of him I miss him.
I suspect you don't see many SPAD replicas because they're a relatively heavy, complex airframe (requiring a number of good skills including casting and joinery to make) with a decidedly nonstandard V-8 engine (mine started out with the intent of using an aluminum Chevy dry-sump small block, and finished with the intent of using a BMW engine (some of the airworthiness modifications to which had been pioneered by a contemporary twin-engine bomber replica using V-12s). Some of the production in wartime was contracted out to a piano factory (I believe the one at Dayton came from there) and that's the level of craftsmanship and fabrication I think necessary to do it right. Another good demonstration of what's involved is the replica in the Selfridge museum (north of Detroit on Anchor Bay) for which there is some photographic documentation -- it took a team of skilled people three years.
Nungesser was somewhat famous for preferring the Nieuport (which was much more agile) to the SPAD. Different tastes in handling -- and the aircraft handle VERY differently.
There's a YouTube video of that Italian replica being built, unfortunately the video quality's not that good. From what I saw building a SPAD was a complicated process, but then that's what probably made them as good and rugged as they were.
I don't know what kind of engine that Italian plane has but it's certainly modern. I see the owner installed a self-starter for convenience, and I don't blame him, saves having the trouble of a ground crew.
You know, Baracca preferred the older SPAD VII, considering it more manuverable than the XIII. He didn't mind that it had only one machine gun. As he said...
"If you know how to shoot one gun's all you need!"
However, it was a XIII he was killed in.
Sorry we've hijacked your topic David! Couldn't help ourselves!
And on the American effort to stop the Bolsheviks, and we weren't the only ones, there's a story about a Jewish American Doughboy who's parents left Russia to escape the pogroms. He joined the army expecting to fight the Germans and wound up in Russia fighting the Bolshies!
In a letter home he said "Hi Mom! Hi Dad! You'll never guess where I am!"
Sadly, I don't remember his name. New York City kid by the way, and he did make it home all right.
Overmod Flintlock76 Is this the Henry Forster you're speaking of? It most certainly is. He taught me about the right ways to fly a 220 in combat, and about the United States efforts after the War to get rid of the Bolsheviks (which of course conventional American history at the time didn't teach much about!) It was an honor to have known him, and every time I think of him I miss him. I suspect you don't see many SPAD replicas because they're a relatively heavy, complex airframe (requiring a number of good skills including casting and joinery to make) with a decidedly nonstandard V-8 engine (mine started out with the intent of using an aluminum Chevy dry-sump small block, and finished with the intent of using a BMW engine (some of the airworthiness modifications to which had been pioneered by a contemporary twin-engine bomber replica using V-12s). Some of the production in wartime was contracted out to a piano factory (I believe the one at Dayton came from there) and that's the level of craftsmanship and fabrication I think necessary to do it right. Another good demonstration of what's involved is the replica in the Selfridge museum (north of Detroit on Anchor Bay) for which there is some photographic documentation -- it took a team of skilled people three years. Nungesser was somewhat famous for preferring the Nieuport (which was much more agile) to the SPAD. Different tastes in handling -- and the aircraft handle VERY differently.
Flintlock76 Is this the Henry Forster you're speaking of?
The Nieuport models, like the Fokker Eindeckers and the Dr.I, along with Sopwiths, are unstable, as are all rotary-engined planes. That's an inherent feature but it is also why they are so damn maneuverable. It takes a skilled, experienced pilot to handle one.
charlie hebdoThe Nieuport models, like the Fokker Eindeckers and the Dr.I, along with Sopwiths, are unstable, as are all rotary-engined planes. That's an inherent feature but it is also why they are so damn maneuverable. It takes a skilled, experienced pilot to handle one.
More than just dynamic instability: it's a consistent instability, born of the tremendous gyroscopic torque generated by the spinning rotary. (This is of course part of what charlie hebdo meant, but that might not be apparent to 'lay' enthusiasts...) So certain strong or quick control inputs also result in attitude changes at right angles to them, as you can readily re-create holding a spinning gyroscope horizontally in front of you and manipulating it. Add this to the fundamental characteristic that sticking your hand out of the cockpit creates enough moment to bank and even yaw the plane a bit... this before the gyroscopic torque acts.
One lesson from this has to do with becoming an ace without a long and tiring learning curve in dogfighting stamina. If you get your guns to bear on target in a rotary-engined fighter, walk the rudder pedals quickly left and right. This doesn't 'turn' the airplane (you need to bank to do that) but it does YAW the airplane, making the gun bearing point walk back and forth too ... but the gyro torque automatically pitches you up and down 90 degrees out of phase but equally quickly, and without affecting much about your actual state vector as it were.
The result if you sustain firing for a few rounds is a cone of fire, that widens or tightens proportionally to how you kick the pedals. Think of this as analogous to spiraling a laser to ensure contact at a distance. It was said to be an effective technique.
Continued in a new thread
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