The Truth About Monorails

[NorthWest]

Have we yet discussed Brennan's monorail?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Einschienerp.jpg

http://www.catskillarchive.com/rrextra/ODGYRO.Html

[gardendance]

CSSHEGEWISCH

Most monorails have operated with fixed consists.

But it's not a requirement, anymore than saying light rail has to run on the surface. Monorails can have cars that can couple and uncouple. Why do you think most have fixed consists?

[Overmod]

aegrotatio

I was unable to edit my post to update it, but it was about another monorail that balanced itself on a single rail on the ground and also used the overhead catenary to keep the balance. It eventually crashed when the motorman decided to take a curve at less than the required speed which was actually 55 MPH, not 35 MPH as I had originally posted.

It was built by August Belmont based on what he saw at the Jamestown Exhibition.

Here is a link: https://archive.org/stream/tramwaysactvict00britgoog#page/n66/mode/2up

This is the same reference (More Unusual Railways), and the same railroad.  I believe Belmont's interest was through the IRT and not personally... but I am no expert.

I think I disagree over the high speed thing -- but it does hinge on where the defective construction was.  The overhead system guiding the 'ears' had to be 'pre-superelevated' to a particular speed for the banking to work correctly, with the assumption being that the flanges on the earwheels (I couldn't resist coining the term!) would never 'derail' as long as the car was running.

With the car running slowly, the balancing between left and right ears was thrown off, with more stress being placed on the inside members of the portal frames.  This very well might have caused one or more of the portal frames to shift, but this imho would not have caused the earwheels on that side to lose contact with the rails -- it appeared to me, perhaps incorrectly, that the running rail itself had subsided and shifted laterally, causing at least some of the 'inside' earwheels to flip off their guiderail.  At that point of course the car just went over with nothing to hold it up...

The take-home point is that this system was NOT gyroscopically stabilized, and in fact any developed gyro torque from the wheels would be counteracted by the superelevation of the overhead structure, rather than lead to any increased stability, in this system.

It does have to be said that this, like the Kearney/Boynton Bicycle Railway, does have a certain amount of merit... if strongly built.  I believe this is actually mentioned near the end of the Times article.  We might remember in judging the terminal fate of this system that the BMT experienced a similar one after the Malbone affair...

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

Most monorails have operated with fixed consists.

[gardendance]

What do fixed consists have to do with monorails?

[daveklepper]

The Acela is a success because it is all-reservation, uses demand pricing, and has a backup in Norhteast Regional to handle the overflow.  In a sense, the Broadway Limited and 20th Century, once streamlined and rarely run with extra sections until train-offs made extra equipment available, were practically fixed consist, with overflow business going to the General and Commidor Vanderbilt, for example.  The Comet hung around for a long time.  After it was bumped from Boston - Providence fast local service, it ran Boston - Waterbury via Hartford, where I rode it in 1950 or 1951, with my MIT classmate Gerry Dyar (who later served "under my command" at the Psywar Center at Fort Bragg.).   Similarly, when the fixed consist Flying Yankee was bumped from Boston - Portland - Bangor, it served as the Cheshire, Boston - Bellows Falls - White River Junction (or Wells River?), and as the Minuteman, Boston -Troy.

In a sense, the New York subway system has gone to fixed consists, with five-car unitized trains, full-width cabs only at the two ends.  This applies to both A (old IRT) and B (IND-BMT) divisions.  Most of the time they run as ten-car trains, late nights as 5-car.   Not universal (yet?) for all lines, and the 7, Flushing, has single cars to allow 11-car trains (and also 6-car?)

Has Amtrak ever run two Acelas in service together?  I know it is technically possible.

[aegrotatio]

Overmod

Can I have a detailed reference on this?  Particularly about the 35 mph curve business?

I was unable to edit my post to update it, but it was about another monorail that balanced itself on a single rail on the ground and also used the overhead catenary to keep the balance. It eventually crashed when the motorman decided to take a curve at less than the required speed which was actually 55 MPH, not 35 MPH as I had originally posted.

It was built by August Belmont based on what he saw at the Jamestown Exhibition.

Here is a link: https://archive.org/stream/tramwaysactvict00britgoog#page/n66/mode/2up

[schlimm]

Acela is a fixed consist also, technically an EMU.  In Germany they sometimes combine two separate ICE (HSR EMUs) consists and run it as one, possibly splitting at some point.

[Randy Stahl]

Then the obvious question is , why don't they work here? Or perhaps why is it so different here? I know that Amtrak had some success with the turbo trains but after all , they are not in service anymore and there were no replacements built.

Is the Acela train a fixed consist ?

 

I'm a freight railroader , pardon my ignorance in passenger train management.

 

R

[schlimm]

Randy Stahl

History has proven that anything with a fixed consist will become obsolete in a short time. The new Haven comet trainset was a victim of its own success for example. It wasn't long before demand outpaced the limited accommodations of the train and actual locomotive hauled train was substituted.

i think you will find that fixed consist passenger trains have been operating very successfully in Europe and Asia for many years to a large degree.

[Randy Stahl]

I view mono rails like lateral elevators, meant for a very limited purpose. If after all they were practical there would be many more of them built. I class them in the same category as pneumatic tubes, expensive toys.

 

History has proven that anything with a fixed consist will become obsolete in a short time. The new Haven comet trainset was a victim of its own success for example. It wasn't long before demand outpaced the limited accommodations of the train and actual locomotive hauled train was substituted.

 

Maybe that's why the Milwaukee road opted for a conventional train instead of a fixed trainset.  

 

Wasn't there a tube system built in NYC ?

 

R

[Overmod]

gardendance

Decades ago I remember reading in either Steve Maguire's Trolley Car Treasury, or William Middleton's Time of the Trolley, that the New York Pelham Park monorail did derail while taking a curve too slowly since part of its design was to have the wheels act as gyroscopes and give stability.

This story has a different explanation.  While I hate to cite Wikipedia, they have a convenient link to the basic story (see Pelham Park and City Island Railway).  There is more, I believe, in this classic book (this is the link to read it online).

This is the Tunis system shown at the Jamestown Tercentenary, which really isn't a 'monorail' any more than the Boynton or Lartigue systems are, and is manifestly and painfully non-gyroscopically-stabilized.  It's kinda like the Lartigue system upside-down, with the stabilizing rails also being power conductors.  This was a rather obvious disaster in the making for a system that had laid much of its bearing-rail structure on sand -- all it took was enough tilt for the contact side-bearing wheel to misalign with its rail, and toppling-over would be imminent...

I had thought you were describing a system like Brennan's, where there is actual gyroscopic stabilization; I don't know offhand of a system that directly depended on gyroscopic moment of the wheels to keep the train stable.  I understand Tunis' point about the low speed to be -- this is speculation, mind you -- that the rail was somehow superelevated in curves, and the long overhang of the car resulted in downward and inward shift of the rail, leading to the car losing 'track' on the inside guide rail and then falling over to the inside of the curve.  Presumably at higher speed only the outer wheel would have remained in guiding contact, with the deep flanges keeping the car located even with some unevenness of support... but don't ask me to ride the thing -- it's a death trap!

Thanks for pointing this out!

[gardendance]

Decades ago I remember reading in either Steve Maguire's Trolley Car Treasury, or William Middleton's Time of the Trolley, that the New York Pelham Park monorail did derail while taking a curve too slowly since part of its design was to have the wheels act as gyroscopes and give stability.

I don't know about any specific 35mph limit. Goo goo gives me

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F50717F834591B728DDDAE0994DF405B808DF1D3

The inventor, Howard Hansel Tunis was also the operator, page 1. Page 2 "The curves of the road are built for high speed and if I had put the car around the curve at high speed there might have been no mishap"

[Overmod]

aegrotatio

It went as far as when the motorman drove the train at slower than its designed speed, and it fell over as it lost balance. The train was not designed to run at speeds slower than, if I recall correctly, 35 MPH on that particular section of track.

Can I have a detailed reference on this?  Particularly about the 35 mph curve business?

[gardendance]

ATSF2499

Here is another site to look at: www.monorails.org.

MONORAILS are safe. Whether they are of the straddle-beam or suspended variety, modern monorail technology makes derailment virtually impossible. As monorail is elevated, accidents with surface traffic are impossible. Zero accidents with pedestrians or surface traffic translates to no system down time, less liability suits and most importantly, a safer public. Street rail systems with grade crossings (light rail, trams or trollies) can't approach this level of safety, as any study of accident history will show.

The paragraph starts out with an aspect I can agree is unique to monorails, does anybody have info on derailments? The rest of the paragraph though tries to say that only monorails can be grade separated. Can we all agree that there's nothing to stop one from making ANY right of way grade separated, not just monorails, which are very difficult to make anything BUT grade separated?

They continue in this vein, the next paragraph says they don't pollute since they're electric. Is there anyone among us who thinks that power source automatically says anything conclusive about how clean or dirty the transport mode is?

[aegrotatio]

n012944

The monorails at Walt Disney World have a top speed of 40 MPH on the Epcot line.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walt_Disney_World_Monorail_System

I sat in the cab car and also in the coaches. They are loud, shakey, and have lots of vibration at speed.

I got to watch a "MAPO Test" where they intentionally pass a signal at danger and watch as the train is stopped. "MAPO" is their block system, named after the Mary Poppins movie whose huge profits were used to finance the entire Walt Disney World project, monorails, Magic Kingdom, EPCOT, and land acquisition.

[aegrotatio]

NorthWest

The Wuppertal Schwebebahn is a very interesting setup, using rail instead of a beam. Unfortunately, it still has the complex switching problems of others. How far did the gyroscopically balanced monorail come?

It went as far as when the motorman drove the train at slower than its designed speed, and it fell over as it lost balance. The train was not designed to run at speeds slower than, if I recall correctly, 35 MPH on that particular section of track.

[aegrotatio]

Why are modern monorails built in the beam-straddling configuration with all those rubber tires and framework? Aren't hanging monorails far simpler to build and maintain? Is the ride quality significantly worse on a hanging monorail?

The white elephant Walt Disney World monorails run smooth but those laughable switches, the dangerous height of the stations (I once saw a kid open the gate leaving him inches away from death), the foam-filled beams, and the fact that they will never build a line (as originally planned) to Animal Kingdom, Hollywood Studios, nor anywhere else despite the fact that WDW desperately needs to replace those slow Gilig buses with some kind of quick and efficient transport.

[Falcon48]

Aside from corrugation, sand is another reason the SF cable car system can be noisy.  When it rains, the cable cars drop sand on the rails to facilitate braking.  If you ride the cars during or just after a rainy period, there will be a lot of sand on the rails, and the cars will make a loud grinding sound as they operate over it.  This is a temporary situation , which goes away as the track gets clean.

Another source of noise is welding repairs  I've noticed that track crews often repair worn cable trackage (particularly at special work) by welding a bead on the rail head, in the flangeway (which, near special work, is flange-bearing), or on the face of a guard rail.  This results in a rougher (and noisier) surface than the original rail.  However, these are typically only short segments.  Corrugation appears to be the major culprit.

[schlimm]

 The Indiana University Health People Mover is only 1.4 miles long and operates at a top speed of 30 mph since starting service in 2003.

[Polish Falcon]

Last Monorail I rode was in Indy. IN. I went out of my way to ride the Purdue- Methodist Hospital Line which is about 2.5 miles long. The ride was not exactly smooth and it was rubber tire on concrete guide way. Being that concrete has a shelf life after curing I assume that in 20 years or so this line will be a fallen flag, Like Jacksonville none of the plans in Indy for rail call for monorails or people movers.

[ATSF2499]

Here is another site to look at: www.monorails.org.

I have ridden and studied all 4 major US systems (Las Vegas, Disneyland, Disney World, and Seattle). Their best advantage is being up above traffic. The Epcott line at WDW runs at 40 MPH and is quite smooth. The Las Vegas line had a lot of potential but has the disadvantage of succumbing to local politics and being routed on a serpentine path behind the casinos over a back road like an unwanted stepchild. I drove the route of the Seattle line at rush hour from the Space Needle to the downtown station in 15 minutes, but rode the train back in 5. It's too bad I can't post pictures here because I have several interesting views of  ALWEG cars and Bogies.

The best form of track in my opinion is two parallel beams with an emergency walkway between them.

[blue streak 1]

The monorail switches for the EWR airport are quite massive.

The way they work is they are on a steel beam about 200 ft long with straight route on one side and curve route on other  side.

To switch the beam rotates 180 degrees longitudinal to change the route from straight to curve.

first previous route changes from clear to stop 

Sequence is the retraction of 8 pins hydraulically that had locked the beam in place. 

Once all pins retracted they activate safety interlocks 

Then a hydraulic motor rotates the beam 180 degrees in about 25 - 30 seconds.

So monorail,s previous route  is now underneath

Then the locking pins are moved back into place and the logic determines all pins are in place then gives a clear.

When beam returns to previous route beam rotates opposite direction.

 

[Falcon48]

I'm not sure what the basis is for the claim that monorails are a "lower cost alternate to elevated railways".  A monorail and a 2-rail elevated will require similar supporting structures.  A huge disadvantage to monorails vs 2-rail system is that switches on a monorail are very complex and expensive.  On a 2-rail system, you merely have to move the running rails.  On a monorail, you have to move the entire supporting structure - it's basically a transfer table (that's the way the Disney monorail switches work).  I have never seen a crossing of two monorail lines, but I imagine that would  require an apparatus similar to a turntable to properly align the supporting structure for the route of movement.  The complexity and expense of these devices likely make monorails unsuitable for general transit use with multiple switches and crossings.

With respect to the noise of the SF cable car system, sections of it are, indeed, quite noisy.  The reason is that the track in these sections has become very corrugated (i'e', the rail has a wear pattern of small ridges every inch or so at a right angles to the direction of movement).  it isn't noisy in places where the cars regularly apply their track brakes, since the friction of the brakes on the rail prevents the corrugation from developing.  The solution is periodic rail grinding to restore the original profile, but I don't think they do this on the cable lines.  BART has a similar problem on some of its trackage.

[Overmod]

Someone pointed out peripherally that there are other Disney monorails...

  ;-}

[daveklepper]

 You are correct.   I missed your 1991 date.   Apprix. 1985.   www.streetcar.org has the full story.   Don't understand, then, why so noisy, except that there are no resilient wheels, no rubber on any sort in the suspensions, noise of cables runniing over sheeves, possibly other matters as well.

[gardendance]

I thought the shutdown and rebuild was before my 1991 ride. What are the dates for the shutdown to which you refer?

[daveklepper]

Remember that they had to shut down and thorougly rebuild the entire cable-car network just a few years after your ride.   But it had the positive result of the historic streetcar festival and this led to the F line

www.streetcar.org

[NorthWest]

I suspect that whatever grease that they used in the sheaves had become thicker due to the cold.

I also believe that was around the Muni Meltdown resulting from system neglect.