gardendance I get the impression BaltACD thinks deep bore is cheaper than elevated or surface, otherwise why would he say it represented 'dodging' the problem, or perhaps he meant they throw money at the problem to 'dodge' it, which kind of misses the point I think vsmith's trying to make
I get the impression BaltACD thinks deep bore is cheaper than elevated or surface, otherwise why would he say it represented 'dodging' the problem, or perhaps he meant they throw money at the problem to 'dodge' it, which kind of misses the point I think vsmith's trying to make
Not cheaper - just a different set of challenges - One tends to forget all the 'utilities' that exist in near proximity to routes that are above ground and must be rerouted and secured against the operation of the transportation medium. And the owners of the utilities must coordinate their own actions with all the owners of the other utilities.
Among the utilities that must be accounted for - Water, Storm Sewer, Waste Water Sewer, Electric, Telephone, Steam Lines - and probably half a dozen other things I can't comprehend - all owned by different entities and all with their own operating parameters that must be protected and accounted for in allowing todays usage as well as planning for tomorrows usage.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
IIRC, the Chicago subways were bored through blue clay, which is much easier to cut through than hard rock. It also had the advantage of being reasonably water tight, so no air was needed to keep water out.
- Erik
Google Books covers this very topic in 1911
By American Electric Railway Engineering Association. Convention
In Chicago, the State Street subway was tunneled by deep-bore in 1942, with perhaps some cut-and-cover work where it connected with the L. The steeple of Holy Name Cathedral has a slight but visible lean to the southwest that apparently occured when the subway was tunneled.
I believe that the Dearborn Subway (Congress-Milwaukee line) was also tunneled by deep-bore.
A lot depends on nature of the soil and ground in general as to what type of subway construciton is least expensive. One example would be a built-up area where the desire is for a direct subway line to go diaganaly with respect to the street grid, and underneath all the buildings is hard rock. Deep bore is the only solution. But note that deep stations require elevators as well as escalators, all with their maintenance, adding costs. The other extreme would be a subway under a wide boulevard where disruption of two or three or four lanes can be tolerated and the soil is soft or clay.
But subway construction ALWAYS costs between four and ten time the cost of a street-based streetcar line, even with massive utility relocation.
New York's original IRT subway was mostly cut-and-cover. But 145th - Dykman-200th Street was bored, and this 1904-1906.
Thank you. I haven't been paying too much attention to modern subway construction techniques, living as I do in the Philadelphia area, where I'm pretty sure the short stretch under the Schuylkill River is the only non cut and cover portion.Is deep bore cheaper than cut and cover, or elevated or surface? It looks like Vsmith started this line of thought"even if we had to elevate or redirect parts of the routes its still 30-40% the costs and 3 -4 time faster to build then a subway"blue streak 1 said"the problem of utilities running underneath that line is still there. ... who would have to pay for their relocation or hardening under this ROW"I questioned "how taking care of possible utilities for a surface or elevated line could be more expensive than for a subway"I get the impression BaltACD thinks deep bore is cheaper than elevated or surface, otherwise why would he say it represented 'dodging' the problem, or perhaps he meant they throw money at the problem to 'dodge' it, which kind of misses the point I think vsmith's trying to make
Patrick Boylan
Free yacht rides, 27' sailboat, zip code 19114 Delaware River, get great Delair bridge photos from the river. Send me a private message
Most modern subways, such as the 7 Subway Extension to Hudson Yards and the Second Avenue Subway are TBM drilled. Most subway construction is cut and cover, however, most subway construction occurred before 1980.
That's news to me. I thought most subway construction was cut and cover, in other words they dig a trench, and so have to handle the utilities, then cover up the trench they just dug.
Please give me some documentation of how many subways you know of that tunneled without disturbing what's above them, vs the cut and cover method.
gardendance It's difficult for me to imagine how taking care of possible utilities for a surface or elevated line could be more expensive than for a subway.
It's difficult for me to imagine how taking care of possible utilities for a surface or elevated line could be more expensive than for a subway.
What is required to relocate and harden utilities for transportation projects would amaze you.
Most subways 'dodge' the problem by tunneling their line beneath all the utility rights of ways.
vsmith BroadwayLion The difference between "putting some old stuff back in service" and building a new system is the same difference as riding a bicycle around the block as compared to a round trip to the moon. I have been screaming at the moon here in LA that building subways makes no dam sense here when we still have 90% of the old ROWs for the Pacific Electric intact or at least still reasonably accessible,
BroadwayLion The difference between "putting some old stuff back in service" and building a new system is the same difference as riding a bicycle around the block as compared to a round trip to the moon.
The difference between "putting some old stuff back in service" and building a new system is the same difference as riding a bicycle around the block as compared to a round trip to the moon.
I have been screaming at the moon here in LA that building subways makes no dam sense here when we still have 90% of the old ROWs for the Pacific Electric intact or at least still reasonably accessible,
Vsmith::
The old PE ROW may still be there but the problem of utilities running underneath that line is still there. Do you have access to California law as to who would have to pay for their relocation or hardening under this ROW ? It could be different for when the utilities were installed ?
BroadwayLion The difference between "putting some old stuff back in service" and building a new system is the same difference as riding a bicycle around the block as compared to a round trip to the moon. Regulations, NIMBYS, ADA, Green Beans, Bean Counters, Republicans and Democrats must all come to a consensus which is seldom possible at all, and never possible when money is the issue. The politics of doing something useful will kill any project. Ask about the new Jersey tunnels. ROAR
Regulations, NIMBYS, ADA, Green Beans, Bean Counters, Republicans and Democrats must all come to a consensus which is seldom possible at all, and never possible when money is the issue.
The politics of doing something useful will kill any project. Ask about the new Jersey tunnels.
ROAR
I have been screaming at the moon here in LA that building subways makes no dam sense here when we still have 90% of the old ROWs for the Pacific Electric intact or at least still reasonably accessible, even if we had to elevate or redirect parts of the routes its still 30-40% the costs and 3 -4 time faster to build then a subway. It takes years for surface lines to get built but it takes DECADES for subways to get built.
We dont have the weather issues or the building congestion (90% of the LA basin is only 2-3 stories tall) like Manhattan that help justify going underground. Its just NIMBYism and shear madness that drive the subway program. Build it above ground and build it now, because every year you wait, it only gets more expensive, prices NEVER go down.
Have fun with your trains
Firelock, thanks for the Mike Royko reference! He was the Man! Not to get off topic, but I recall what he said about the Chicago Democratic convention in 68- " Some journalists got beaten by the cops but they were from New York and Washington so they had it coming." Priceless!
Yes, what the hell has happened? There was discussion by politicos here in Toronto about tearing down a portion of the Gardiner expressway. After lots of study, the vote gets punted to next year. Then, likely another study. The way it's going, the thing will fall down on its own.
Utility relocaton is a major cost in streetcar construction, often half the cost.
Cheap? You want cheap?
http://www.topgear.com/uk/videos/the-trainavan-part-1-series-17-episode-4-
If some of the McKinney ave tracks were already in place the very high cost of utility relocations may have been avoided. Also as a younger city Dallas may have a better idea of what utilities go under those tracks. Also most utilities under the tracks may have been there second. A contrary example is the Atlanta street car where as many as 13 separate utility lines per block go under the proposed & built tracks. If these utilities were not hardened under the Atlanta tracks any breakdown of any utility under the ROW would be blamed on the street car and the streetcar would have to pay & pay So what happens when the subgrade on McKinney deteriorates due to heavier equipment ? Unscheduled shutdowns while utility companys pay to repair ? It may be a question of pay now or pay more later on new ROW ? Now all rail ROW has hardened utilities underneath.
Class 1 and most other RRs strictly enforce these rules that any utility be hardened under their ROWs. As well on our state highways the state DOT enforces it as well
BaltACD Firelock76 When talking about New York City 100 years ago you have to step back a bit and look at the Big Picture, at least the Big Picture as Tammany Hall saw it: 1) Is this good for the City? 2) Will this create jobs? 3) Will it make us look good? 4) Can we make some money out of it? Needless to say the answers were yes, yes, yes, and yes. I don't think there's anyone out there who seriously thinks the subways and the elevateds SHOULDN'T have been built, is there? Remember the late Mike Royko's explaination of the Daley machines success in Chicago; "Give the people all the services they expect from the city government, police, fire, sanitation, and everything else, and do it in an efficient and timely manner, and the voters will let you get away with anything!" They weren't far wrong. Conversly, if the taxpayers feel they are receiving less in services than the are paying in taxes you soon end up with chaos and taxpayer 'revolts'.
Firelock76 When talking about New York City 100 years ago you have to step back a bit and look at the Big Picture, at least the Big Picture as Tammany Hall saw it: 1) Is this good for the City? 2) Will this create jobs? 3) Will it make us look good? 4) Can we make some money out of it? Needless to say the answers were yes, yes, yes, and yes. I don't think there's anyone out there who seriously thinks the subways and the elevateds SHOULDN'T have been built, is there? Remember the late Mike Royko's explaination of the Daley machines success in Chicago; "Give the people all the services they expect from the city government, police, fire, sanitation, and everything else, and do it in an efficient and timely manner, and the voters will let you get away with anything!" They weren't far wrong.
When talking about New York City 100 years ago you have to step back a bit and look at the Big Picture, at least the Big Picture as Tammany Hall saw it:
1) Is this good for the City?
2) Will this create jobs?
3) Will it make us look good?
4) Can we make some money out of it?
Needless to say the answers were yes, yes, yes, and yes. I don't think there's anyone out there who seriously thinks the subways and the elevateds SHOULDN'T have been built, is there?
Remember the late Mike Royko's explaination of the Daley machines success in Chicago; "Give the people all the services they expect from the city government, police, fire, sanitation, and everything else, and do it in an efficient and timely manner, and the voters will let you get away with anything!"
They weren't far wrong.
Conversly, if the taxpayers feel they are receiving less in services than the are paying in taxes you soon end up with chaos and taxpayer 'revolts'.
No you end up living in Upstate NY where the taxpayers put up with it without any lubrifications and no vote for the authritys that are apointed by downstate polticos,
Sam1 The Barclay Center in Brooklyn is a magnificent building and has sparked new buildings around it. New York is doing what it has always done. Reinventing itself! If I had a dollar for every time a pundit has written off New York, I could have retired 25 years ago. The notion that American cannot complete worthwhile projects is not supported by the evidence. As for the projects that get canceled, there is usually a good reason for it. More often than not the cost benefit ratio is not compelling.
The Barclay Center in Brooklyn is a magnificent building and has sparked new buildings around it. New York is doing what it has always done. Reinventing itself! If I had a dollar for every time a pundit has written off New York, I could have retired 25 years ago.
The notion that American cannot complete worthwhile projects is not supported by the evidence. As for the projects that get canceled, there is usually a good reason for it. More often than not the cost benefit ratio is not compelling.
The question is whose cost and whose benefit. Unfortunately transit funding seems to be in a special category where if it isn't a huge road for cars, some politicians will do everything possible to stop it.
Like the Barclay Center in Brooklyn, fixed rail is a solutions multiplier that has positive development effects far beyond its explicit use. There will always be myopic politicians and skeptics that only want to talk about "passenger miles" and the like, and completely ignore the full range of benefits.
Absolutely Balt! Politicians violate the "Daley Rule" at their peril. Richard Daley may not have been the nicest guy in the world, but he knew the world he lived in and governed accordingly.
Developers today must consider more external variables than was the case fifty years ago. Some of the regulations that they must comply with are superfluous. But in most instances there are sound reasons for them. I want developers, for example, to show that the air that I breath and the water that I drink will not be unduly fouled because of their projects.
The McKinney Avenue trolley is being extended. The project is on schedule. Another street car line is being built from the Dallas convention center to Oak Cliff. It is on schedule. DART has completed the largest light rail network in the United States. Given the size of the project, it ran into some expected hiccups. Some of them were regulatory; most of them were unforeseen construction delays. But the project has been completed.
I just came back from New York City. The replacement for the World Trade Center appears to be well on its way. New apartment houses and condominiums have sprung up like spring flowers on the upper west side, where I lived in the 60s and 70s. The Barclay Center in Brooklyn is a magnificent building and has sparked new buildings around it. New York is doing what it has always done. Reinventing itself! If I had a dollar for every time a pundit has written off New York, I could have retired 25 years ago.
daveklepper Was not the original McKinney Avenue operation, still the heart of the line, tracks never covered over or removed since Dallas Terminal and Railway days?
Was not the original McKinney Avenue operation, still the heart of the line, tracks never covered over or removed since Dallas Terminal and Railway days?
The rails on McKinney Avenue had been covered with a relatively thin layer of asphalt. It was relatively easy to remove. The original rails that could be used (double track) ran from St. Paul and McKinney Avenue to Allen Street. They were extended along St. Paul (one curb track) to Ross Avenue, which was on the edge of downtown at the time. They were also extended northeast along McKinney Avenue (one curb track) to Hall Street, where they turned left for one block, before looping back along Cole Avenue to McKinney.
The original restoration was funded in part by Prufrock restaurants founder Phillip Cobb. He is still chairman of the McKinney Avenue Transit Authority. I am not sure what role his partner played in the restoration. Operations were funded voluntarily by business owners along McKinney Avenue, who saw the trolley as an opportunity to bring tourists to the restaurants and night spots along McKinney Avenue. Today the trolley is funded by the Uptown Improvement District and DART. It is route 825 in DART's schedules.
Subsequently the line was extended further north to Blackburn, with an extension to City Place, where one can connect with DART's light rail system. This extension was funded from a combination of private and public sources.
Currently, the McKinney Avenue trolley is being extended into the heart of the Dallas Arts District, which means running the line further down St. Paul to Federal Street, left on Federal to Olive Street, and back on Olive Street to McKinney Avenue. This extension is being funded by the federal government ($8.5 million) and Dallas City bonds.
The McKiinney Avenue trolley is a fun ride. I commuted on it for several years. I was a rarity.
While we are at it...Baltimore does not have a real indoor light rail to subway connection. To get from light rail to subway means a scetchy walk up Lexington Market Ped Mall and being acosted by all sorts of people bums and hustlers panning some ripped off gold necklase...Its like a Sat Night Special or a 1970s episode of Starsky and Hutch.
Bonaventure10Lets give a 20,000,000 grant to the Baltimore Trolley Museum and see what they come up with as a private non profit
They would probably come up with... a really awesome trolley museum, and the population would still be 200 million away from a real transit system.
The problem isn't how much these things cost - it's a big investment with bigger returns. The problem is political.
I got that chart off the Southeast High Speed Rail website:
http://www.sehsr.org/
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
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