For those who do not believe that utility relocation is a problem. ---- Atlanta reports that tey have to deal with 13 different utility companies some which are not readioly accessible.
The automobile is not KING in Europe, in general. Transit passengers are just or even more important. Ditto in Toronto and now in San Francisco.
schlimm Question: Why is that in-street streetcar routes in Europe don't seem to present a traffic-interference problem (beyond what buses cause) than we seem to think they would here? Auto traffic there is quite heavy.
Question: Why is that in-street streetcar routes in Europe don't seem to present a traffic-interference problem (beyond what buses cause) than we seem to think they would here? Auto traffic there is quite heavy.
One of our European friends could probably answer this better than I can, but I suppose the easiest answer is that unlike here in the US the streetcar lines never went away, so, auto and bus traffic in Europe has had to adapt itself to the existing city streetcar lines. Here in the US we'd be reinventing the wheel, for lack of a better term, and streetcars would have to adapt themselves to car and bus traffic. A sticky situation with no easy answers.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
Stilll does. So: Dayton, San Francisco, Cambridge and Boston, and Seattle
Dayton seems to have trolley buses.
Seattle's bus tunnel does not use trolleybuses at the present time. The consultants insisted that the new light rail system that shares the tunnel be 1500 volts, and so the current buses are hybrid battery-diesels, that use the diesel very sparingly in the tunnel and rely on battery power for acceleration. But the rest of the torlleybus system has expanded,, with the Ballard line the most recent conversion. Boston has really two isolated systems, one from Watertown and Waverly to Harvard Square, Cambrdge (full service) and then to North Cambridge on Massachusettes Avenue (sometime service). The other is the line from Logan Airport to South Station which had dual-mode electric and diesel articulated buses and uses the electric mode in the tunnel on the Boston side, but not in the regular vehicular tunnel under the harbor shared with regular traffic.
Dayton has the oldest system in place and have voted to expand, Seattle has a bus tunnel and so does boston for short way at harvard sq tha require the use of trolley buses and San Fran is part of there Muni system. Toronto abandoned theres in the late 1990s,
Thank you, Bonas.
I should have known about Boston because I go there now and again. The other cities I'm not familiar with.
John
Dayton OH Seattle,Boston, San Fran.
Paul of CovingtonSpeaking of noise, the electric trolley buses that replaced many of the streetcar lines were so quiet, the loudest noise you heard sometimes was the "tick, tick, tick" of a pebble caught in the tire tread.
In most places those trolley buses have also been replaced by buses with internal combustion engines. Toronto may have some. I can't think of a US city that does but maybe someone knows about such cities.
What about streetcars interfering with the normal flow of traffic. In Boston part of the Arborway line was abandoned due to the fact that the right of way was a 2 lane city street...where streetcars had there own Right of way they survived.
Speaking of noise, the electric trolley buses that replaced many of the streetcar lines were so quiet, the loudest noise you heard sometimes was the "tick, tick, tick" of a pebble caught in the tire tread.
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"A stranger's just a friend you ain't met yet." --- Dave Gardner
Overmod Bus engines can be loud, rasping, annoying at considerable distance
I look at it from the perspective of a bus rider. I've been bounced and jerked around a lot on buses but inside the bus I cannot recall noise being a problem. But your point, about noise for a person who lives on the street where a bus goes by, is certainly valid.
John WR OvermodThe key words are 'well maintained.' I can appreciate the fact that proper regular maintenance is important. Very important. But with similar sized vehicles (such as street cars and buses) if we are looking at noise it is hard for me to believe that rubber tired vehicles will be more noisy than steel wheeled vehicles. Did you ever ride the subway in Montreal or Paris?
OvermodThe key words are 'well maintained.'
I can appreciate the fact that proper regular maintenance is important. Very important. But with similar sized vehicles (such as street cars and buses) if we are looking at noise it is hard for me to believe that rubber tired vehicles will be more noisy than steel wheeled vehicles. Did you ever ride the subway in Montreal or Paris?
Yes. Yes I have.
The point is that the Metros don't have engines. Bus engines can be loud, rasping, annoying at considerable distance as the sounds are often distinctive. That is what Dave was talking about.
Do you have data for the latest generations of hybrid buses, too? (And inside noise levels and power spectra)?
Glad you've measured it critically. That is the kind of action we need.
Bus noise, data from mesurement and you can get my own measured data by contacting me at
daveklepper@yahoo
is negine noise, not road noise. This is not true of modern automobiles. Some motorcycles (delibertely) out deciBell them all, though. Also, some trucks.
The key words are 'well maintained.'
We have container trains that go through town with little more noise than quiet streetcars. And then we have some like the chorus from Il Trovatore on methamphetamine.
My experience is that quiet cars tend to start making noise fairly quickly unless the wheel lathe is a popular tool at the barn... granted, it's not the world-ending noise of a penniless operation, but it's there.
I do not want to imply that buses are quieter alternatives than streetcars! Only that the road noise is often less courtesy of the rubber tires. Slamming and banging, broken shocks or worse in the suspension, and that awful rasping death rattle from undermaintained 6-71s are -- often -- just as irritating as the six bucks of bolts in a barrel.
Well maintiained modern streetcars are less noisy than buses. This definitely includes the 50 and 60 year old PVV cars running oon Market St annd the Embarcadaro in SF and the cars on Gerrad (Route 15) in Phila delphia.
OvermodNo, but they're [elevated trains] noisy as hell. And so are typical streetcars in their 'waning' years.
Well Bob, I hope you never have to live near a street car line. Or an elevated train.
No, but they're noisy as hell. And so are typical streetcars in their 'waning' years.
Modern LRVs can be quiet, and get around most if not all the environmental objections of nearby property owners. Remains to be seen how they'd perform after a few years with no subsidy, however...
OvermodBut I was referring to the noise that people living near the track were suffering, not what the pax would experience. And THAT might have been as bad as people living near the El trains in New York...
But New York elevated trains are not street cars.
Paul of CovingtonI would have preferred one-man operation to losing a line altogether.
An interesting and ironic historical note especially in light of the fact that street cars again run on the Canal Street line.
Paul of Covington Overmod: "Not to mention the awful noise..." But I loved the "noise." Admittedly, the noise when the tracks were in pavement downtown was downright deafening, but the modern method of isolating the track from the pavement with rubber cushioning really cuts down the noise. But riding the streetcar in the days of two-man operation was a symphony. The grinding of the motors and wheels with the occasional loud "POW!!!" accompanied by a flash of lightning from under the car. The "tuk,tuk,tuk,tuk" when the air compressor cycled on. As passengers boarded there was a "jing" for each cash fare or a "jang" for each transfer. When ready to start, the conductor would signal "dink,dink." To have the motorman stop at the next stop, it was "dink." If a car pulled into the path of the streetcar, the motorman would stop with "tsh, tsh, tsh" from the air brakes and stomp on the floor button with a "bong, bong, bong" which the car driver would ignore. There was one more bell that I never quite understood. Strapped to the control stand was a cowbell; the only time I can remember hearing it was late at night if the motorman really opened her up on a rough stretch of track, and the car started swaying violently from side to side. I always wondered if the purpose of this bell was to act as a "high-tech" warning to take it easy.
Overmod:
"Not to mention the awful noise..."
But I loved the "noise." Admittedly, the noise when the tracks were in pavement downtown was downright deafening, but the modern method of isolating the track from the pavement with rubber cushioning really cuts down the noise.
But riding the streetcar in the days of two-man operation was a symphony. The grinding of the motors and wheels with the occasional loud "POW!!!" accompanied by a flash of lightning from under the car. The "tuk,tuk,tuk,tuk" when the air compressor cycled on. As passengers boarded there was a "jing" for each cash fare or a "jang" for each transfer. When ready to start, the conductor would signal "dink,dink." To have the motorman stop at the next stop, it was "dink." If a car pulled into the path of the streetcar, the motorman would stop with "tsh, tsh, tsh" from the air brakes and stomp on the floor button with a "bong, bong, bong" which the car driver would ignore. There was one more bell that I never quite understood. Strapped to the control stand was a cowbell; the only time I can remember hearing it was late at night if the motorman really opened her up on a rough stretch of track, and the car started swaying violently from side to side. I always wondered if the purpose of this bell was to act as a "high-tech" warning to take it easy.
Yes, I loved the noise, and still do. One of my most prized pieces of nostalgia is a cassette tape, recorded on one of the old Advent 201s (with the funny single meter) using a car battery and inverter to run it, of a trip on MP54s from 30th St. out to Swarthmore. Those things had CHARACTER.
But I was referring to the noise that people living near the track were suffering, not what the pax would experience. And THAT might have been as bad as people living near the El trains in New York...
RME
We lost most of the bells with one-man operation and exact-fare.
It's long been a pet peeve of mine that for years NOPSI (electricity,gas and transit) had been pressuring the city to allow one-man operation, but the city always refused. Electric and gas rates subsidized transit, and NOPSI said they were losing too much. They then tried to get them to let them convert all lines to buses. (There were only two car lines left at that time.) The city let them convert the Canal St. line in 1964 but made them keep the St. Charles. What bugs me is that several years later, when the city took over transit operations, one of the first things they did was convert to one-man operation. I would have preferred one-man operation to losing a line altogether.
My own experience in New Orleans is that on straight track street cars are quiet. So quiet you need to be aware of them and not stand too close to the track. No doubt that is the reason for the bells.
On board you can here the air pump working but that is about all.
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