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commuter rail preps for "sandy" and future storms

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commuter rail preps for "sandy" and future storms
Posted by blue streak 1 on Friday, October 26, 2012 12:04 PM

This thread has covered the consequences of the of preparations foor Sandy. Will edit the existing post now to give the resulting new plans for future storms.  These plans will be posted on this original post as plans become known hopefully froom the agenceys themselves. 

Have not located NJT's  plan but here is Bergan record summary.

http://www.northjersey.com/news/NJ_Transit_retools_storm_strategy_shifts_rail_stock_to_safer_storage.html

 adding the article of what NYC TA did before & after 

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/27/magazine/could-new-york-city-subways-survive-another-hurricane.html?ref=nyregion&_r=0

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Posted by cv_acr on Friday, October 26, 2012 12:29 PM

Um, you're providing links to something inside your web email. That's not going to work for anyone but you.

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Posted by blue streak 1 on Sunday, October 28, 2012 4:18 PM

sorry here is latest AMTRAK BULLETIN  -- guess all MARC & VRE will be cancelled ??

CSX shutting down north of richmond and east of brunswick md. 

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Posted by blue streak 1 on Sunday, October 28, 2012 6:45 PM

NJ TRANSIT SHUT DOWN NOTICE

http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2012/10/road_rail_and_air_travel_shutt.html#incart_m-rpt-2>

NYC transit shuts down at 7;00 PM sunday night subways included

 

MARC SHUTS DOWN RAIL AND BUS

http://mta.maryland.gov/advisories/hurricane-sandy-customer-advisory

septa will be shut down by 0100 mondday morning

http://www.septa.org/realtime/status/system-status.shtml

here is announcement of all NY MTA services

http://alert.mta.info/ 

shore line east shut down monday since AMTRAK OPERATES THE SERVICE

http://www.shorelineeast.com/index.php

MBTA  ( BOSTON ) operating normally  (?) monday except no boat service.

http://www.mbta.com/weather/

 

 

 

 

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Posted by Phoebe Vet on Sunday, October 28, 2012 8:59 PM

Danny was in 1997.  It's too late to prepare.

Dave

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Posted by blue streak 1 on Sunday, October 28, 2012 9:52 PM

Phoebe Vet

Danny was in 1997.  It's too late to prepare.

Thats what I get for having a relative named danny.  Corrected title

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Posted by henry6 on Monday, October 29, 2012 9:03 AM

I have never ever seen such advance suspension of services anywhere...and this is not only one metropolitan area but all areas from Boston south through Richmond!   There is at least a 24 hour advance suspension in all these places for subway, commuter rail, rapid transit, even bus services.  Is this too extreme?  Could today have been a regular business day with the suspensions beginning at say 10PM or even 12M (nothing allowed to run as long as schedule terminated no later than 12M)?   Is this overreacting or just good preparedness?  

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Posted by Sam1 on Monday, October 29, 2012 9:38 AM

henry6

I have never ever seen such advance suspension of services anywhere...and this is not only one metropolitan area but all areas from Boston south through Richmond!   There is at least a 24 hour advance suspension in all these places for subway, commuter rail, rapid transit, even bus services.  Is this too extreme?  Could today have been a regular business day with the suspensions beginning at say 10PM or even 12M (nothing allowed to run as long as schedule terminated no later than 12M)?   Is this overreacting or just good preparedness?  

Not being part of the preparedness teams, it is difficult to say whether they are overreacting.

The large electric utility that I worked for had a storm center, which was staffed when a major storm was headed our way.  Some said that we tended to overreact to a pending storm, but prior experience told us that if we did not get on top of it, there were plenty of lawyers who would subsequently make us wish that we had.

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Posted by blue streak 1 on Monday, October 29, 2012 2:59 PM
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Posted by John WR on Monday, October 29, 2012 3:09 PM

Thanks for the pictures, Streak.  I especially enjoyed the ones of an empty Grand Central Terminal.  Several years ago I remember a noreaster that put water in Hoboken Terminal up to the public telephones.  

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Posted by BaltACD on Monday, October 29, 2012 4:02 PM

henry6

I have never ever seen such advance suspension of services anywhere...and this is not only one metropolitan area but all areas from Boston south through Richmond!   There is at least a 24 hour advance suspension in all these places for subway, commuter rail, rapid transit, even bus services.  Is this too extreme?  Could today have been a regular business day with the suspensions beginning at say 10PM or even 12M (nothing allowed to run as long as schedule terminated no later than 12M)?   Is this overreacting or just good preparedness?  

 

The Balto-Wash Metro area has had rain since about 5 PM on Sunday afternoon with intensity increasing as time wears on.  It is now 5 PM Monday - rain has been at a steady heavy intensity of probably 1/4 to 1/2 inch per hour - winds have been blowing since early morning - sufficient to hear it roar through the trees.  How many trees will withstand the wind force for how long with the continuing softening ground is the question.

Getting trains to the Metro area in the morning would have been no problem - emptying the Metro are in the afternoon may be a totally different story.

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Posted by MidlandMike on Monday, October 29, 2012 8:06 PM

Blue Streak, as I remember, the stairs down to the PATH Hudson Tubes was right there at Hoboken.  I would hate to think of seawater cascading down the stairs unabated.

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Posted by henry6 on Monday, October 29, 2012 8:45 PM

MidlandMike

Blue Streak, as I remember, the stairs down to the PATH Hudson Tubes was right there at Hoboken.  I would hate to think of seawater cascading down the stairs unabated.

It has happened before....

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Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, October 30, 2012 4:59 AM

It is not extreme.   Takes time to secure equipment, try to waterproof or move to high ground critical stuff.   They don't just park the trains in a yard and hope for the best.

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Posted by henry6 on Tuesday, October 30, 2012 8:07 AM

If the Battery got 12 foot surge...and Hoboken the Square Mile City is underwater and isolated, I wonder if NJT moved everything out of the yards and hauled it out to the hinterlands and hills along the old EL rights of way and yards....From what I can see, anywhere on the Newark division was (is) underwater but Hoboken Division has places to stash above water lines...of course, it also has trees and debris.  On the east shore of the Hudson, both the LIRR and MNRR are so close to water and water courses, there is almost no place to hide except maybe up the Harlem, Danbury, and New Canan branches.  SEPTA also suffers from a lot of water level or low level lines....

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Posted by John WR on Tuesday, October 30, 2012 9:45 AM

All of the tracks at Hoboken Terminal are reported to be under water along with large parts of the whole city.  The below link includes a picture of the Hoboken PATH station with water pouring out of elevator doors at the turnstiles:

http://blogs.wsj.com/metropolis/2012/10/29/hoboken-in-dissaray-calls-for-national-guard-help/

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Posted by oltmannd on Tuesday, October 30, 2012 11:53 AM

Interesting tidbid.  I read that the signal system cabinets on NJT at Hoboken got flooded and all the electronics need to be replaced (Ouch $$$).  I've also read where Conrail pulled the electronics from the Port Reading Secondary signal system on Monday because of concerns about flooding.  (smart!) 

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Posted by henry6 on Tuesday, October 30, 2012 12:09 PM

I haven't heard that...but it does sound reasonable....I did hear that Public Service Electric did shut down power plants ahead of the storm because when working any water or other strikes could damage the equipment in use which cause them to take longer to come back afterward.  They are drying out the equipment now.  BUt I wonder if lines were not under power, how their monitoring system could work...I suppose knowing there are so many trees down, a monitoring system is superfluous anyway.

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Posted by John WR on Tuesday, October 30, 2012 7:40 PM

If you click on the below link, scroll to the yellow cabs and click on the right thumbnail you will see a distant view of Hoboken Terminal.  

http://www.nj.com/hobokennow/index.ssf/2012/10/hoboken_fire_department_kept_b.html

No doubt you are familiar with it, Henry.   For those who are not the waiting room is in the green (copper clad) building just to the right of the clock tower.  The main entrance is in the center of the building you see.  Further to the right and next to the large posts is the wall of the train sheds with 17 or 18 tracks in back of it.  Off to the left are ferry slips.  (Hoboken Terminal is actually a ferry terminal that accommodates a rail terminal).  The concourse at the head of the tracks is not visible because of the strange large post in the front.  I have read reports that the water was about 5 feet high in the concourse but here it looks more like about 2 feet high.  

PS.  The Delaware, Lackawanna and Western Railroad built the Hoboken Terminal in 1907 mainly for its Morris and Essex Line.  In the 60's the DL&W merged with the Erie Railroad to become the Erie Lackawana and the Erie's Main Line and Bergen County line (which runs up to Port Jervis) began to use the terminal.  These lines along with the Montclair Boonton line and the Pascak Valley Line  still use Hoboken Terminal.  Some Morris and Essex and Montclair Boonton trains also run into New York Penn Station.

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Posted by henry6 on Tuesday, October 30, 2012 8:17 PM

Web sites www.NJTransit.com and  www.MNRR.com, www.LIRR.com and www.MTA.com all have bits of information.  Basically, SEPTA operations went back at noon Tuesday, but the NYC area is in bad shape. NJT reports the bridges hit on the NJCL and washouts on the NJCL and Atlantic City lines; trees across the tracks and wires down (catenary presumably) all over; power to the computer system that "operates the railroad" along with back up power, etc. have all been flooded making things difficult to ascertain.  Other than the specifics on the Coast and Atlantic City lines and the loss of the operations computers, very they are revealing very little...including the snake bit Port Jervis line and the Pascack Valley line they operate for MNRR.  MNRR is showing pictures on its site of the flooding at Harmon and elsewhere on the Hudson LIne, several locations on the Harlem Line and the New Cannan branch, as well as pics of the LIRR's Oyster Bay branch tree across the track, some washouts, and the flooding of West Side Yard...just west of NYP...in Manhattan.  Subways and PATH all suffering from salt water covering the track and third rail power and needs to be "cleaned" before even thinking of running power through much less a train.  MNRR did run a diesel powered inspection train on the Harlem but I got that from posted pictures on Facebook.   

As an aside...as far as the computer being flooded and all power and back up power non existant.  Few people knew this, but the DL&W RR had a back up dispatchers office at Denville, NJ station with two desks and complete phone and telegraph connections so that if anything ever happened in Hoboken, the were still able to operate everything from Denville.  It was a double desk, back to back, so that the dispatchers would have faced each other and was located in the ticket office to the M&E track side.  Telephones, earphones, telegraph keys, and the code dialers were all there!  EL pulled it out, maybe CR.  But the point is that there was a back up operations plan and location to execute that plan.  Sure its sexy to have the Empire State, Wall St., and the Statue of Liberty in view and the mass complex of tracks and equipment spread out for all to see.  And those cute Transit Villages around the track or tracks look nice and should bring in some money while the sale or demolition of old stations help the till, too.  But it seems that a hideaway in the hills with a full communications set up, a back up in case of a total loss of the main frame of operations, would seem like an appropriate investment.  In NJT's defense, I would say that I never heard that Denville was ever used under any circumstances.  But right now, it would seem that a Denville like back up would certainly make tomorrow look easier to achieve. 

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Posted by narig01 on Wednesday, October 31, 2012 5:38 AM

NYCTA is in pretty bad shape from what I've read. 

This is New York Times assessment:

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2012/10/30/nyregion/hurricane-sandys-aftermath.html

Also the following map of lower Manhattan: http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/images/newsgraphics/2012/1029-hurricane-updates/subway_tunnels.png

From what I've read elsewhere Coney Island yard, 148th St & Lenox, 207th St and the other low lying yards were emptied of equipment.   I'm  not sure about some of the museum equipment at Coney Island yard though.

        I've seen a picture of the Sea Beach line. At Av U it had water over the platform.  South Ferry on the #1 line was underwater last nite.  The water was up 6" deep at the booth. 

      According to news reports all the East River tunnels were flooded.  In addition I heard that the DeKalb Av station in Brooklyn was flooded.  I can not understand that as I thought DeKalb Av & Flatbush Av were on higher ground.

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Posted by beaulieu on Wednesday, October 31, 2012 10:27 AM

I saw a report elsewhere that NJT did not do a good enough job of getting equipment to higher ground and that 65 locomotives and 257 passenger cars suffered varying degrees of damage.

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Posted by henry6 on Wednesday, October 31, 2012 10:44 AM

Yes...information is scarce from NJT...anything else is just hearsay at the moment.  CSX has gotten it's line through Philadelphia north to NJ sort of opened with signal problems reported by SEPTA...SEPTA also saiys its running to Trenton on the AMtrak line and Amtrak reports getting trains to Newark.  This bid well for NJT Newark to Trenton at least.   MNRR is no further along this morning and LIRR reports tree down are the main problem to Port Jefferson, Oyster Bay, and other eastern points and several high tension towers leaning over the tracks out east.  Again lack of commercial power is also a major problem for the railroads.

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Posted by henry6 on Wednesday, October 31, 2012 11:16 AM

Just checked around the media and agencies in the NY area, and nothing more, nothing new as yet.  Even the Middletown NY Times Herald had nothing to report on MNRR.NJT conditions except that there are inspections going on....

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Posted by blue streak 1 on Wednesday, October 31, 2012 11:59 AM

Henry here is a report

http://www.njtransit.com/sa/sa_servlet.srv?hdnPageAction=CustomerNoticeTo&NoticeId=2299

If reports that the operations center was flooded then all NJ residents need to have the head of the architect / engineer who built it in a potential flood area.  The other thing is unconfirmed reports of major rolloing stock flood damage is true then ........................ ??

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Posted by oltmannd on Wednesday, October 31, 2012 12:02 PM

Heard that NJT lost 65 locomotives to the flood....  That's a lot.

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Posted by henry6 on Wednesday, October 31, 2012 12:35 PM

NJT still has not reported specifics beyond what is found on their website as linked above.  The River Line is operating from Walter Reade Transportation Center to Trenton and Camden area bus services have resumed.  But no other NJT or NJT-MNRR services have not been further addressed. 

MNRR has announced that North White Plains to GCT will begin on the Harlem Line with hourly service starting at 2PM,  

I will tout the Middletown (NY) Times Herald as having a great website and excellent coverage of the area above the NY/NJ border and better than any news media anyplace I've seen in the country...and I've been in the media for almost 50 years...they beat the NYTimes, all TV and Radio stations and mass owned media.

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Posted by oltmannd on Wednesday, October 31, 2012 1:13 PM

oltmannd

Heard that NJT lost 65 locomotives to the flood....  That's a lot.

...and a couple hundred coaches.

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Posted by oltmannd on Wednesday, October 31, 2012 1:14 PM

henry6
...Walter Reade Transportation Center...

...Walter Rand Transportation Center...

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Posted by blue streak 1 on Wednesday, October 31, 2012 2:15 PM

from Internation rail journal

  ""The situation is somewhat grimmer on NJT. The entire regional/commuter rail and LRT service will remain suspended until further notice and there is currently no estimated time for service resumption due to widespread damage to critical infrastructure. NJT's rail operations centre is engulfed in water, which has damaged backup power supply systems, the emergency generator, and the computer system that controls train movements and power supply to catenary. There are numerous fallen trees which have damaged catenary and signalling cables, and there are track washouts across the network.""

This is indeed grim. with no control of cat, signals, emergency generator,computer system it may be weeks to set up manual control ??

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