Here is one aspect of public transit that the promotors don't like to talk about. But as the article at the end of the link makes clear, it is a problem.
http://www.dallasnews.com/news/local-news/20111208-dallas-transit-agency-sees-thefts-robberies-nearly-double-in-2011.ece
I rode public transit for more than 33 years in Dallas. And before that I rode it in New York City. I had some harrowing experiences. Some of them are not fit to discuss in a public forum. But they were threatening. At the end of the day, I believe the threat of crime, real or imagined, is a major reason why people will stick with their cars if they can afford to do so.
I agree. It's a major problem in many cities and it seems to be without any solution.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
The crime threat in large cities is not discriminatory. Public transit, private transit, sidewalks, places of business and private residence - crime can and does strike anywhere at any time.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
How is an occasional crime on mass transit different from a car jacking? I wonder how many of those Indecent Exposure cases are homeless people urinating in inappropriate places.
Perception is everything. Many people use debit cards and carry little or no cash because they are afraid of being robbed. Apparently not noticing how many people are abducted and taken at gunpoint to an ATM where the bad guy can get even more of their money.
I rode our one line 10 mile light rail yesterday at about 2 PM and it was so crowded that people were having trouble getting in and out the doors. Imagine how many people would use it if it went more places. Yet every article in the paper about expanding the system is followed in the comments section by claims that no one rides the "choo choo". I can only assume that those comments are written by people who never ride it.
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
Phoebe Vet I rode our one line 10 mile light rail yesterday at about 2 PM and it was so crowded that people were having trouble getting in and out the doors. Imagine how many people would use it if it went more places. Yet every article in the paper about expanding the system is followed in the comments section by claims that no one rides the "choo choo". I can only assume that those comments are written by people who never ride it.
Phoebe: the only way those comments can be refuted is if the articles have a picture of the overcrowding of trains. Why hasn't that been done ? Media laziness ? 2PM? That certainly is not rush hour. Was it because the headways at that time are less than at rush hours ?
Trying to mitigate overcrowding will of course increase operating expenses. I can see 3 possible ways to increase capacity but all increase operating expenses. You will have to comment on each and the pitfalls of each.
1. Rebuild the line platforms for 3 car trains. Has any cost figures been released stating possible costs of expanding all platforms?
2. Decrease headways - Is there enough equipment? That would also apply to #1/
3. Run a short station train that does not go to or originate at the end of the line. Run this short station train just in front of a complete route train ?
Yes, headways are different during rush hour. Rush hour they are two set trains every 7 1/2 minutes, other times they are one set trains every 15 minutes. The original plans were for 300 ft platforms to allow three set trains but the Feds, believing that the ridership estimates were overly optimistic, required the plans for both platform length and parking be reduced as a contingency of their participation. From day one the actual ridership has exceeded the original estimates.
CATS has requested the money to lengthen the platforms as part of the design of the 10 mile extension of the line which is in the engineering phase. I don't know if it will happen. It will be expensive because many of the platforms are elevated.
I only ride about once every two weeks. My particular need takes us from end to end. The train is not always that crowded, but Yesterday it was that crowded almost from end point to end point. Every time I have been on it all the seats were full and there were people standing. It was a one set train.
My real point in posting it was the fact that people who don't ride it don't seem to believe that anyone else does, either.
Mass transit in Charlotte, bus, car pool vans, and rail, is funded in part by a 1/2% dedicated sales tax. When the economy crashed and the two major banks that are headquartered here (Bank of America and Wachovia) got in big trouble, the sales tax revenue plummeted. As a result, construction is WAY behind the original plan. They have recently started selling advertising space on the outside of the trains and buses.
When they planned the first rail line, I was NOT a believer. I based that on how few people I saw riding the buses on the road that roughly parallels the rail line. But I am a believer now.
BaltACD The crime threat in large cities is not discriminatory. Public transit, private transit, sidewalks, places of business and private residence - crime can and does strike anywhere at any time.
Agree. People in relatively safe suburban communities often opt for gate subdivisions, home alarms, etc. I think we are very good a scaring ourselves to death over things that are not particularly risky. I have ridden a variety of transit for 30 years and the scariest moments have generally been walking to or from. Like anything else, you do need to be aware of your surroundings and don't do anything stupid.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
My observation is that many Americans desire to live in perfect safety and are willing to yield many of their basic rights to obtain that safety. I remember speaking to a person who would prefer a fascist regime like Franco's Spain since he, as he put it, could walk around with money hanging out of his pockets and not have to worry about anything happening to him.
That's a fact. Americans have demonstrated time and again that they prefer the illusion of safety to freedom.
We must be very lucky here in Pittsburgh, compared to some other cities. Transit related crime here is rare, to my knowledge. And I'm a regular light rail and bus rider. Over the last year I can recall just two news items about altercations, one a serious disagreement between a passenger and a light rail operator, the other a passenger assault on a bus driver. I agree that it's smart to be aware of your surroundings when walking to and from transit stops. Here, home invasions seem like a bigger problem than transit crime.
Phoebe Vet That's a fact. Americans have demonstrated time and again that they prefer the illusion of safety to freedom.
Wow! Is that ever true. No pictures on the platform or of the trains but anyone a mile or more away with a super zoom lens has a perfect picture...even the guy monitoring his sattellite can get a good picture of the spike heads in the rails...while a railfan is carted off for innocenlty pursuing an interest. Walk through any crowded area and there are dozens of sniffing dogs looking for as many different things; and beside them their handlers and at least to others per squad to keep an eye on us while a perpatrator can drive into the crowd with a car loaded with explosives or just casually walk in with fruit of the doom underware ready to blow or an innocent looking package or whatever is radio conrolled by a cell phone to ignite the whole town. Safety, in this context, is an illusion for sure.
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Phoebe Vet's "I based that on how few people I saw riding the buses on the road that roughly parallels the rail line. But I am a believer now" does not seem to have been picked up yet. Slight surprise there becasue it's a really important quote and shows why light rail should be encouraged. What it shows is that Light Rail does more than provide existing bus riders with a nicer journey - it also encourages those using other modes (most notably cars) to use public transit. That modal shift is why the passenger figures often exceed predictions.
Please don't take this the wrong way, but the fact that a knowledgeable railway supporter may think that a light rail system is a bad idea, and the Feds who are supposed to be professionals (no anti Feds griping please) can get their figures wrong suggests that some new thinking is needed.
On crime one interesting point concerns statistics. To say, and I'm using hypothetical figures, that there were 10,000 crime on the New York Subway sounds a lot. But if there were 1,000,000,000 passengers the crime rate is 1 in 100,000. 10,000 crimes sounds a lot, but put it the other way and you have 999,990,000 passengers who were not affected. Actually the figures are something of an exaggeration my way because of course there aren't 1bn separate riders there are instead a much lower number who take multiple journeys. This means the chance of being a victim is in fact rather higher.
This just in:
http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2011/12/13/2846836/grant-to-allow-longer-trains.html
We seem to always have crime where people gather....from a simple aggrigation of houses to a crowded street to a gathering of people to pockets to pick on the platforms or aboard a train. Crime on trains can only be avoided by moving to the hinterlands where there are not only no trains but also no people.
They extended the platforms on the blue line to accomadate three car trains. It cost several million dollars.
Due to the economy public transit is being forced to cut back on service both rail and buses. Also due to changes in the design of buses about 30 years ago a forty foot bus now only has about 45 seats as opposed to 55 seats on old buses. This has been resently addressed with 45 foot buses but many agencys won't buy them because of the re-training need to operate them
Get mugged one time, as I was at a transit station, and your views about crime and safety are likely to change. No more glib statements about crime anywhere or weak kneed Americans over reacting to it, which is great sloganeering but adds nothing of substance.
Prior to the coming of the light rail line in Dallas, big D did not have a transit police force. It did not need one. But that changed with the coming of the rail line. Today, the Dallas Transit Police force numbers approximately 185 officers. Needless to say, numerous variables have contributed to the need for a significant transit police force, but is is not an unnoticed coincident that the need for the police force arose with the coming of the light rail system.
Crime happens, it was not invented by the light rail system. Anywhere there are people there is crime. That is why we hire policemen. We keep enforcement in perspective by supervising those policemen with a court system. Anything that weakens that court system is dangerous.
My claim that people prefer the illusion of safety to actual freedom is evident all around you. People support the bizarre treatment of citizens by TSA because it makes them feel safe, even though TSA has never caught a terrorist. They have, however, arrested numerous citizens who had the audacity to be offended by their tactics, and they make a substantial amount of money auctioning off all the property they have seized from those citizens.
Congress has passed the USAPatriot Act which negates the need for many search and wiretap warrants and Americans support it. Our government tortures military and CIA prisoners, and Americans support it. Congress in the last couple of days, attached to the defense funding bill, a section that allows the President to detain people, even citizens arrested in the US, for years without trial if he suspects them of terrorism. President Obama says he is going to sign it. People think it's a good idea because it makes them feel safer.
I stand by my statement that Americans prefer the illusion of safety to actual freedom.
An unconstrained government is more dangerous that any terrorist or any criminal.
Phoebe Vet Crime happens, it was not invented by the light rail system. Anywhere there are people there is crime. That is why we hire policemen. We keep enforcement in perspective by supervising those policemen with a court system. Anything that weakens that court system is dangerous. My claim that people prefer the illusion of safety to actual freedom is evident all around you. People support the bizarre treatment of citizens by TSA because it makes them feel safe, even though TSA has never caught a terrorist. They have, however, arrested numerous citizens who had the audacity to be offended by their tactics, and they make a substantial amount of money auctioning off all the property they have seized from those citizens. Congress has passed the USAPatriot Act which negates the need for many search and wiretap warrants and Americans support it. Our government tortures military and CIA prisoners, and Americans support it. Congress in the last couple of days, attached to the defense funding bill, a section that allows the President to detain people, even citizens arrested in the US, for years without trial if he suspects them of terrorism. President Obama says he is going to sign it. People think it's a good idea because it makes them feel safer. I stand by my statement that Americans prefer the illusion of safety to actual freedom. An unconstrained government is more dangerous that any terrorist or any criminal.
Balancing personal freedom with the need for personal security is a challenge. To hear you tell it, however, people wanting to be safe from crime are wimps. What are you saying? That the TSA should be abolished, and we should go back to the day when anyone could roam around an airport or board an airplane without any meaningful security?
Yesterday, I flew from Baltimore to Austin via Little Rock and Dallas. I passed through security in less than two minutes. The same was true when I flew from Austin to Baltimore via Orlando. I don't know anyone who likes the airport screening procedures. But they dislike even more the prospect of being hijacked or worse. Moreover, no one was complaining about the procedure. Most of the reasonable people that I know accept it as the world that we live in.
As is frequently the case, you missed the main point of my posting. The light rail system in Dallas is a magnet for crime as reported by the Dallas Morning News. That is not to say that crime does not happen elsewhere or that transit creates crime. But it is easy pickings for the bad guys and a few bad gals. If you think I am kidding, take a ride on DART during the late evening hours. Notice who rides the trains and, moreover, who hangs around the transit stops, especially those in relatively remote locations.
Crime rates in the United States, especially those for violent crime, have declined dramatically. For example, in Texas, the murder rate has dropped from more than 3,000 in 1995 to 1,249 in 2010. But many if not most people in this area believe transit is afflicted with high crime rates. And that is one of the reasons they stay away from it. Less than three per cent of the people in the Austin area ride public transit. And of those who do, approximately 40 per cent don't have an alternative. They are poor. As long as people believe that riding public transit is not safe, they won't use it.
Yes, I am saying that TSA should be abolished and people should be allowed to roam freely about the airport and board airplanes without being treated like criminals by government agents. That is called freedom. Transit facilities should be patrolled by police officers who are constrained by the constitution and who only detain and search people when they have reasonable cause.
Your reply clearly indicates that you are one of the people who prefers the illusion of safety that the TSA security theater provides to freedom.
Crime is an unfortunate outgrowth (ingrowth?) of civilization...it happens as long a man congregates in any density. As we've progressed from cave man to today (is "progressed" misused? Some would say so.) there has always been dangers from those seeking power or wealth by stealing.
Framing this discussion within our proclivity for being railfans. In the 1800's posters warned of the coming of the railroad because of the perils of the steam locomotive and the criminals it would attract. Still we built railroads and created cities and towns and crime flourished because of the society setup rather than because of the railroad itself. Even in the 21st Century we hear cries of not reintroducing passenger rail services because of the criminel element in the form of drug dealers etc. it would bring while turning a blind eye to the neighbors fields of the illegal crops, the ease in which black limosines and SUV's ply the 4 Lanes to and from the city with the harvest. If the railroad or a light rail line or other rail transit form were the cause of crime, then anyone would be right in saying "nay". And, yes, being a victum of a crime, will make you "gun shy" of a recurrence but hopefully also more vigallant. I was attacked by a tenant who failed to pay his rent. Should I, and others, therefore, not build houses and apartments for rental purposes because of that incident? We can't let one incident hold up or stop the rest of society, nor should it also stop any one of us from living. We just need to find more and different ways of protection.
Just the opposite happened in Los Angeles. Shortly after the first light rail line was opeened the Transit Police were abolished and enforcement was taken over by the LAPD and LASO. LASO now has the entire contract and their response is much better.
I think you are confusing TSA (wannabe be cops) and sworn peace officers. TSA are just Rent A Cops at the airport. I know one and she could not hold down a job before she was hired by TSA. When she found out all the power she would have I thought she was going to have an organism. Transit Police or Local police contracted by transit agencies provide a vital service. Its not an illusion passengers are safer, they are safer after the freak is taken off the bus. Just the threat of the police being requested many time results in the freak calming down or fleeing. And believe it or not some of these freaks are chronic problems and the police know just where to find them.
TSA should be replaced by professionals. All this taking stuff out of you pockets, shoes and belts off, etc. should be discontinued. And things that a person inadvertently left in their carry on or pockets should be placed on the flight and returned at your destination.
OK. One TSA rant and then I'm done.
Flew from Germany to Atlanta. Went thru security in Germany. Didn't have to take off my shoes. Flight traveled 1000 miles over US soil - from NY to Atlanta.
Got to Atlanta. Arrived in concourse E. Picked up bags, cleared customs. Now, in order to leave the airport, you have to travel through the other concourses on the "clean" side of security. I should be "clean", right? After all, I was checked in Germany and already flew 1000 miles over the US, and had no chance to go outside a secure zone since we took off.
Should be "good to go", right? NO. Had to go through TSA screening again. Bag had to be rechecked and rescanned. Shoes off and everything. Presumably, I could have gotten something through German security, and then done something with it in Atlanta or a connecting flight. Huh?
Remember the shoe bomber? Because of him TSA makes us take off our shoes. Where did he get on a plane? In Europe. Do they make you take off your shoes in Europe. No. Huh?
So, millions of dollars of equipment and payroll is employed in Atlanta to rescreen passengers and bags that have already flown miles and miles over US territory. Might even be enough to cover the subsidy on a long distance train or two.
Numerous people in our service area knew more about running an electric utility than we did. All you had to do was ask them. Unfortunately, when we did so, it was clear that they did not have a clue about the electric utility business or much else for that matter.
Many of the people in our company knew more about accounting and finance than the accountants. All you had to do was ask them. Get the picture. Most of them did not have a clue.
Many of the people who post to these forums know more about security than the TSA, transit police, etc. Just ask them. Fortunately, most of them don't know what they are talking about. Even more fortunate is the fact that the task of securing our airports, railroads, utilities, etc. has been placed in the hands of security professionals. That is not to say that they don't make mistakes or that their policies and procedures cannot be improved. But it is to say that armchair security experts should recognize the limits of their capabilities.
This thread, by the way, started out with a reference to an article in the Dallas Morning News about crime on the Dallas Area Rapid Transit system. That was the intended scope for the discussion.
Sam1 Many of the people who post to these forums know more about security than the TSA, transit police, etc. Just ask them. Fortunately, most of them don't know what they are talking about. Even more fortunate is the fact that the task of securing our airports, railroads, utilities, etc. has been placed in the hands of security professionals. That is not to say that they don't make mistakes or that their policies and procedures cannot be improved. But it is to say that armchair security experts should recognize the limits of their capabilities.
No doubt. But, sometimes what's obvious from the outside isn't so clear when you're buried in the minutiae.
The original article indicates crime -- mostly thefts -- doubled, but it doesn't give the numbers, except for sexual offenses. Without an idea of the scale being discussed, it isn't possible to judge the severity of the problem. Did it double from 1 to 2 or from 25,000 to 50,000?
"At the end of the day, I believe the threat of crime, real or imagined, is a major reason why people will stick with their cars if they can afford to do so."
You make a good point. But a key take away from my post is reflected in the above sentence. People perceive that crime in Dallas, especially crime associated with transit, is a problem. And perception is reality for most people. Having said that, crime rates in Dallas, indeed all of Texas, are down for most categories.
In 2010 there were 73,286 reported crimes in Dallas, including 9.161 violent crimes. The crime rate for 2010 was down approximately 10 per cent from 2009. City wide approximately six per cent of the population was a crime victim in 2010. As one might imagine, crime tends to be concentrated in certain areas of the city. Crime rates in Dallas, on average, are higher than those in Texas as a whole as well as the nation.
Whilst I lived in Dallas, which was for nearly 33 years, there was a long standing debate about the accuracy of Dallas crime statistics. The Dallas Police Department was taken to task on several occasions by the Justice Department, if I remember correctly, for under reporting crime.
Given the Dallas crime rates, it is probably fair to say that the increase in transit associated crime in Dallas is greater than from 1 to 2 and less than 25,000 to 50,000.
Again, one needs to remember a central point of the article. Transit crime exists. People think it is bad. And that will keep people away from public transit, especially during late evening hours.
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