New light rail service starts in Norfolk, VA

[jfallon]

        The Tide, Norfolk's light rail transit system, officially opened for service on Friday. The much criticized line has had a successfull opening weekend, with over 30,000 riders on its first day. The vast majority of course were just curious about it, and took advantage of the free rides (they won't start charging a fare unil the 29th). I rode it earlier today and have posted some pictures on photobucket at http://photobucket.com/ridingthetide/

                                                                                                John Fallon

[Mr. Railman]

well how nice!

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with free rides continuing thru Aug 28 monday's ridership announced as 13,962. We will see how the paid ridership does after the 28th. There seems to be a very vocal minority still opposing its operation.

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Tuesday free rides 13,478. Note:  Original projections were for 2800 riders/day. 

[Phoebe Vet]

That is normal.   There is always a loud outcry from conservative (not the political kind) people who are frightened by anything new or changed.  They scream about new roads, new exits on existing roads, new Wal-Mart stores, new low income housing, new cell phone towers, new windmills, etc.

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Tuesday free rides 13,478. Note:  Original projections were for 2800 riders/day. 

wedensday free rides 13,534 in spite of earthquake slowdowns

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Tuesday free rides 13,478. Note:  Original projections were for 2800 riders/day. 

 

wedensday free rides 13,534 in spite of earthquake slowdowns

Thursday 10,375 in spite of Irene approaching. 

Service will be suspended Saturday due to Irene

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Tuesday free rides 13,478. Note:  Original projections were for 2800 riders/day. 

 

wedensday free rides 13,534 in spite of earthquake slowdowns

Thursday 10,375 in spite of Irene approaching. 

Friday    6172     even less maybe due to Irene?

Service will be suspended Saturday due to Irene

 

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Tuesday free rides 13,478. Note:  Original projections were for 2800 riders/day. 

 

wedensday free rides 13,534 in spite of earthquake slowdowns

Thursday 10,375 in spite of Irene approaching. 

Friday    6172     even less maybe due to Irene?

Service will be suspended Saturday due to Irene

 Sunday 2391

MONDAY  4705 first day of paid rides. Original estimates is 2900 weekdays.

 

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Tuesday free rides 13,478. Note:  Original projections were for 2800 riders/day. 

 

wedensday free rides 13,534 in spite of earthquake slowdowns

Thursday 10,375 in spite of Irene approaching. 

Friday    6172     even less maybe due to Irene?

Service will be suspended Saturday due to Irene

 Sunday 2391

MONDAY  4705 first day of paid rides. Original estimates is 2900 weekdays.

 

 

Tue 5838

Wed 6567

THUR  6471

FRI  7829  pd and just before holiday.  seems like 2  2-1/2 time original forecast of 2900 per weeekday?

  

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A week's ridership figures. Down somewhat but TS Lee may have had some effect.. Need a correlation of ridership to ball games at Tide stadium.

Sa  9158  Sep 3rd

Su  5583

mo  5639

tu  4441

we  4923

th  4682

fr  5901

[tangerine-jack]

The opposition to the light rail is based not upon it being "new" or "innovative" by any means, but the fact it is only 7 miles long and in essence goes "nowhere". It follows a straight double track main from downtown Norfolk past Norfolk State U and then ends abruptly at a 7-11 at the Virginia Beach border. In addition to the short run of the trackage, the city of Norfolk kept 2 sets of books in an attempt to hide cost overruns from the Feds, a ghaslty miscalculation that is still under criminal investigation at this time. The taxpayers are naturaly outraged at this financial deception and cooking of the books, the fact the city used the money to buy a light rail is not really the issue but makes for nice "choo-choo" taunts.

Time will tell if it eventualy will ever be as large as the 53 miles of the original Norfolk trolley system.  The original trolley system was dismantled in the 60s when it was no longer needed due to new roads and the spreading out of the population.

I rode it on opening day an it's got the "new train" smell, but frankly it does nothing useful for me. By the time I get to the train station I could just drive another 5 minutes and be in the middle of downtown. I see it being used for football games at NSU and Harbor Park, and perhaps during the various festivals in order to avoid parking and crowds, but limited in use for the majority of daily commuters. It certainly can use expansion lines to the airport, ODU, and Naval bases (perhaps even all the way to the Beach), but until the fiscal legitimacy of the Norfolk city council is restored in the eyes of the taxpayers I don't see it happening any time soon.

[Phoebe Vet]

The same whiny arguments were made here in Charlotte.  The "choo choo opponents" even got an item to repeal the funding for it put on the ballot.  When election day came around, fewer people voted for the repeal than signed the petition to get it on the ballot. (That isn't too suspicious, is it?)

It continues to move many more people per day than was forecast even though Charlotte lost thousands of high paying jobs when the economy crashed.  Charlotte has a Federal Reserve Bank and was, until the crash, home to the corporate headquarters of 2 of the 4 largest banks in the country.

People in other parts of the city are complaining that the rest of the system is not under construction yet because the sales tax that finances it took a big hit when the economy crashed.

[tangerine-jack]

Whatever the arguments may be, the fact is that the light rail is already built and it's not going away any time soon. Time will tell if the ridership numbers translate into increased downtown merchant revenue and ticket sales and therefore gauge the usefulness of the line once the initial excitement wears off. The fact also remains that the Norfolk system was built under mafia style fraudulent finances and constructed through un-bid contracts to cronies. Add in the propensity for the city to drive away established business with excessive taxes and fees (the Waterside is the centerpiece of the city and now stands vacant due to the city driving away the merchants) and the "vibrant" future Norfolk is trying to build doesn't look so healthy. That alone sets a bitter tone with the taxpayers who fund it and may doom any future expansion of the line due to the natural reluctance of the taxpayers to trust the city with any more of their money.

It very much comes down to the reality not about the train itself, but the political dynamics of the city it's in. Once the FBI and the FED get done with their criminal investigations into the defrauding of the finances to build the Tide (with local, state and federal finances under fraud investigation), and once HRT comes up with a believable number on what the annual cost of operations will be, and once somebody goes to jail for keeping two sets of books, and when somebody else figures out how the taxpayers will be soothed, then maybe- who knows?  And that is an aspect of metro rail that is never discussed in magazines.

[blue streak 1]

TJ:  Well does the "it won't work here crowd " admit that they may have been wrong?  I notice that the ridership is between 4000 - 6000 per weekday and weekends are wildly varying from expected 2900 per weekday..  Some questions.

1. Do the trains ever couple up  or do they only run singlar?

2. Are platforms long enough to run double or triple?

3. Was platforms built to enable lenghting if needed?  Phoebe Vet has posted several times that Charlotte's system was built with some platforms that will take major work to lenghten.

4. Any push to plan into Va beach faster?

[Phoebe Vet]

The sad part about Lynx in Charlotte is that the original plan was for 300 foot platforms and larger parking lots but the Feds forced the shorter platforms and smaller lots as a condition of federal participation in the funding.  They thought that CATS estimates were overly optimistic.  Now CATS is trying to get the money to lengthen the already built platforms included in the construction funds of the next project.

[tangerine-jack]

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TJ:  Well does the "it won't work here crowd " admit that they may have been wrong?  I notice that the ridership is between 4000 - 6000 per weekday and weekends are wildly varying from expected 2900 per weekday..  Some questions.

1. Do the trains ever couple up  or do they only run singlar?

2. Are platforms long enough to run double or triple?

3. Was platforms built to enable lenghting if needed?  Phoebe Vet has posted several times that Charlotte's system was built with some platforms that will take major work to lenghten.

4. Any push to plan into Va beach faster?

 

The short answer is "no" to all of the above. It's just one more item that the city council failed to take into consideration when they grafted the funds to build it. But then again, the project managers had no rail experience at all- none whatsoever. To expand the platforms is a major undertaking, the trains could be run MU, but again the platforms are X length for the single units, and VA Beach won't touch it until the corruption investigations are done and real ridership numbers are evaluated by an outside entity. Frankly, the numbers the City of Norfolk are posting for ridership may or may not be accurate, but who can trust the numbers from a council that kept two sets of books and lied to the Feds about the funding? It is possible to very likely that Norfolk is also fudging the ridership numbers, it would be in keeping with the way they have done all other civic projects in the past.

So the "it won't work here" crowd isn't complaining about it's feasability, just the graft, corruption, deception and arrogance of the people in charge of building it. It's a shame really, it's a very nice light rail and it would be great to go back to the days when Norfolk alone had 53 miles of trolley lines that extended to the beach and beyond. But with the taxpayers lighting torches and carrying pitchforks to City Hall, it's a safe bet to say it will be years before another inch of rail line is laid down.

[Muralist0221]

In Kansas City light rail was approved by the taxpayers, then disapproved in a subsequent election when funds were not available. Would love to see light rail here, but realistically Kansas City doesn't suffer from congestion like some metro centers particularly on the Northeast corridor or California. In effect, congestion  is the mother of light rail.

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After 1 month the paid fares have a weekday average of 5056 and for full month average 4870.

[tangerine-jack]

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After 1 month the paid fares have a weekday average of 5056 and for full month average 4870.

 

Once again, it's the City of Norfolk that is posting the numbers. Maybe it's accurate, maybe not, the point is nobody trusts them because of the fraud. I personly don't know, I see the trains go by almost empty all day long- but then again I'm not watching them 24/7.  It truly would surprise no one around here if the ticket kiosks were counting double-up on the sales- the city has done things like that before.  

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tangerine-jack

Once again, it's the City of Norfolk that is posting the numbers. Maybe it's accurate, maybe not, the point is nobody trusts them because of the fraud..  

TJ:  foound daily recap of paid fares.

http://www.gohrt.com/dashboard/ridership/ridership.html#tideridership\

My question is " Will there be any independent audit of these figures ?"

I wonder why other transit systems cannot post this kind of info in this timely manner? I realize that some kind of adjustment would be needed for weekly, monthly, yearly passes but those adjustments could also be published or some kind of national standard implemented ??