Hey all.
I'm an architecture student at Baker College in Flint, MI. For my Design II class which is Architectural Programming, And for the site my teacher has suggested that we somehow incorporate Light Rail, maybe even Amtrak, and would like some input.
(And incase your wondering I got dibs on station)
Here's some info incase your not familer with the Flint area.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flint,_Michigan
Below is a google earth screen shot of the site.
for light rail, pullup the website lrta.org This is Great Britain's Light Railway Transport Association, publishers of TRAMWAY AND URBAN TRANSPORT. They not only cover standard practice both on the website and in their publication, but also new developments such as the Parry People Mover, a very low-cost non-wire way of preserving passenger service on regular branch lines as well as new ultra-light street tramways. The site also has links to many USA and other existing system, and you can see what is being done worldwide, even Russia and China and India.
Otrhers can fill you in better on Antrak, since Amtrak's own site is concerned with your buying a ticket to go from here to threre. Possibly, contact Passenger Train Journal, www.ptj.com, a rival to TRAINS but really quite a friendly rival and one that is squarely a rail passenger train advocate. But by all means you must send a check in and get the HIgh Speed issue, the one before the most recent, of TRAINS. It will give you some ideas. I assume Flint could use good Amtrak service to both Chicago and Detroit. Does that make sense? And light rail from the site to such areas as donwtown commerical area, the airport, and educational and sports facilities.
Also, please visit an actual light rail installation. If your school is located in Michigan, then possibly the nearest light rail line worth visiting is the Shaker Heights operation in Cleveland. It is an old operation, but the city planning that was used in planning Shaker Heights real estate development along with the light rail line is thoroughly up-to-date and is what is best practice today. The extension to the waterfront is new, but may not be providing full-time service.
Toronto's St. Clair line and Exposition - Union Station line are also modern in concept, now. And the Spadina line. Most of the other lines are traditional streetcar lines, sharing lanes with autos and trucks, exept for the long rural Long Branch line, which is like a classic USA interurban line in many ways.
Kenosha, WS, is also worth a visit.
Should Vonhammer still look at this thread, I now can also recommend that he contact the
Market Street Railway (Association) www.streetcar.org
The Winter 2011 issue of THE INSIDE TRACK, there four-times-a-year publication, has an article on the extension of the Embarcadaro line through an historic freight railway tunnel to serve the Fort Mason Musuem complex. Shown are before and after (computer generation for the after) views of blending the light rail installation with historic buildings and grounds. This seems to be a project that will go ahead.
I'm still looking at this thread. Below is a picture of my proposal for what to put on the site.The site is 2500' x 2500'
The rail maintenance facility seems to large for what it has to do . Possibly economies could be effected by sharing some facilities with the MTA (bus) maintenance. Similarly, having some knowledge of Flint, I doubt that traffic will be that heavy as to require separate Amtrak and commuter rail stations. Shared facilities can result in savings in both construction and operation. Consider making it easier for passengers to transfer between bus and light rail and between both and commuter rail and Amtrak. Elderly people can be high users of transit, and they are best facilitated by across-the-platform connections where possible. The ideal commuter-bus station, with Amtrak sharing the double-tracks through the station, and space left (or tracks included) for one or two bypass high-speed tracks between the two running tracks, is for buses to loop around the station, entering in the opposite direction from the direction of the indbound (Detroit bound) trains, so passengers can exist bus doors on the right side of the bus and cross the platform to board a Detroit-bound train, then the bus loops over the or under the tracks and picks up new passengers coming from Detoirt. People coming in by bus and wishing to go west would wait until the second bus stop, and people coming from the west would board at the first, having to patiently wait while the bus loads most passengers at the second stop. The light rail line could share the bus lane, or might run directly overhead or underneath the commuter rail-Amtrak tracks with its platforms directly under or overhead, and connected by both escalators and elevators. This arrangement would encourage elderly and handicapped people to use the transit services "seemlessly". A variation might be bus roads underneath or overhead, and the light rail on the same level.
daveklepper . Shared facilities can result in savings in both construction and operation. Consider making it easier for passengers to transfer between bus and light rail and between both and commuter rail and Amtrak. Elderly people can be high users of transit, and they are best facilitated by across-the-platform connections where possible. The ideal commuter-bus station, with Amtrak sharing the double-tracks through the station, and space left (or tracks included) for one or two bypass high-speed tracks between the two running tracks, is for buses to loop around the station, entering in the opposite direction from the direction of the indbound (Detroit bound) trains,
. Shared facilities can result in savings in both construction and operation. Consider making it easier for passengers to transfer between bus and light rail and between both and commuter rail and Amtrak. Elderly people can be high users of transit, and they are best facilitated by across-the-platform connections where possible. The ideal commuter-bus station, with Amtrak sharing the double-tracks through the station, and space left (or tracks included) for one or two bypass high-speed tracks between the two running tracks, is for buses to loop around the station, entering in the opposite direction from the direction of the indbound (Detroit bound) trains,
Dave's post here is right on. The only station I can think of that is close to this layout is Dallas Union Station. When I was last there Amtrak & TRE came in on tracks and passengers walked towards station and crossed the light rail line to board. That is very easy to make transiitions but buses were not included.?/? Could be it has changed. Denver Union Station is being rebuilt but exactly how it will layout I have no idea.
Thank you , all great ideas Dave, I think have you were talking about in this new proposal. I have included both a 2D and a 3D view of the site, which is actually 139 acres. My professor has also provided us with the following information on the number of cars daily on the roads boarding the site:
Dort Hwy - 15,530
Robert T. Longway - 7,093
Averill Rd. - 4,310
Davison Rd. - 13,916
Also, one thing he was pushing was to somehow incorporate the history of the site in the new design, since the site was home to AC Spark Plug, and before that Dort Motors. For the LRT line, one idea he had was to use as much existing easements as possible.
Oh and just FYI- the turntable is big enough for a Big Boy
Here's the 2D:
And 3D:
Since most light rail vehicles produced today don't have a front and a rear, there is really no reason to turn them around. A series of switches is a much more cost effective way to direct them to a specific maintenance bay.
Does anyone even build turntables anymore?
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
There is a reason to turn double-end light rail vehicles around. Indeed, twice a year, Metro North runs its rolling stock one time during the particular day around the Grand Central Terminal Loops, not used in regular service, specifically for one reason:
To equalize wheel wear.
Some companies use a wye or loop and check on directions of travel to do the same. On single-end cars trucks are swapped.
I think incorporation of a re-used standard-gauge railroad turntable disused since the switch from steam to diesel would an excellent idea and give some historical value to the light rail installation. It might be donated by the Grand Trunk Railroad, or possibly by NS or CSX. And then its installation would not cost more than a bunch of switches.
And if the maintenance shop and carbarn were bult to resembles a roundhouse and association facilities, perhaps even moving a roundhouse worthy of preservation, even better!
The Waterloo Ceder Falls and Northern interurban had a standard-appearing roundhouse and trolley-wire equipped regular turntable as its main shop for locomotives and interurban cars and servicing facility in Waterloo, IA.
No reason buses and light rail cannot share the same lane and right-of-way. Many in both North America and Europe do at stations, including Toronto (St. Clare and Young), Philadelphia (69th Street, Upper Darby), Calgary, Boston (at Mattapan), and New Orleans (Lee Circle, St. Charles Line)). But Pittsburgh and Seattle go further with buses and light rail sharing Pittsburgh's Mt. Washington transit tunnel and Seattle's downtown subway.
daveklepper I think incorporation of a re-used standard-gauge railroad turntable disused since the switch from steam to diesel would an excellent idea and give some historical value to the light rail installation. It might be donated by the Grand Trunk Railroad, or possibly by NS or CSX. And then its installation would not cost more than a bunch of switches. And if the maintenance shop and carbarn were bult to resembles a roundhouse and association facilities, perhaps even moving a roundhouse worthy of preservation, even better!
That actually is what i was thinking of doing, and I'm sure it shouldn't be too difficult to find an unused turntable. The LRT line was going to be standard gauge anyway,so that works out then.
daveklepper No reason buses and light rail cannot share the same lane and right-of-way. Many in both North America and Europe do at stations, including Toronto (St. Clare and Young), Philadelphia (69th Street, Upper Darby), Calgary, Boston (at Mattapan), and New Orleans (Lee Circle, St. Charles Line)). But Pittsburgh and Seattle go further with buses and light rail sharing Pittsburgh's Mt. Washington transit tunnel and Seattle's downtown subway.
hmm, do you think you could better explain it with a sketch? i'm a visual person
It is simply picking the route through the station for the light rail cars, using grooved girder rail, instead of normal railroad t-rail, and paving the track area for use by rubber tired vehicles just like the regular streetcar lines. Then make sure there are clearances side-to-side, since buses, being free-wheeling, need extra room on each side since they cannot always steer as accurately as a rail vehicle. But as far as station facilities, a modern bus system and a modern light rail system THAT USES LOW-FLOOR CARS have the same station facility requirements.
If you cannot visit a light rail line, by all means go to the website www.lrta.org, and use the links to systems and club websites, and you will find plenty of pictures of light rail systems. The ones on Pittsburgh can show you joint bus and light rail car use of the same facilities.
In the old days, Boston had across the platform transfer to both streetcars and trolley buses, at the elevated Sullivan Square station (including the Eastern Mass "interurban" line north to Stoneham, at the Maverack subway station in East Boston, and at the Ashmont and Fields Corner Red Line subway stations. At present, buses and light rail share the same platforms at the Mattapan station, and via the links mentioned you should be able to fiind pictures of that station on the Boston system.
I found that it is difficult to follow the advise I gave you. There is just so much information via the links on the lrta website that you would have to spend a great deal of time to find what you need. I apologize. And indeed, via Dave's website on club and personal links, I did find a thumbnail of a good picture of streetcars and buses sharing in the Mattapan station, but when I clicked on the thumbnale, I always a different picture, one of a blue line heavy rapid transit car at the Boston Airport staton . So I have to change my advise.
What you need to do, is use www.lrta/or, but use the link to Systems, and to Canada and United States. At Canada, pull up Toronto. On their website pull up contact, information. And tell them what you are doing and ask for photographs of buses and light rail cars sharing the loop at the St. Cair - Young Street station, as well as the station facilites. Also ask them for a cross-section of the track and roadway construction used on that loop. In the USA, contact the Boston thread and you will get the Massachusetts Bay Transportation Authority. Then ask them the same questions for the Mattapan Station. On the Philadelphia thread, do the same for the 69th Street Upper Darby station. On the Pittsburgh thread, ask the same for the Mount Washington Transit Tunnel and the stations at both ends of that tunnel.
Youi might not get all the information you are requesting, but you will certainly get all the information you need to do an excellent design job. Always use the official transit system website and follow their directions to get the information you need. Four different systems with five stations involved should be enough!
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