I think the plan is for 25,000V where clearances permit and 12,500V where they don't, once the catenary repalcement is complete and the electrification can be converted to 60Hz. Metro North will stay with 12,500. I was told that Harold - New Rochelle is now 25,000V 60Hz, but I believe that is in error, and that it is 12,500V Hz. The switch to Ceder Hill Yard in New Haven (end of Metro North) to Boston is 25,000V.
From New Haven to Portal you will never see 25Kv 60 Hz simply because there is no clearance for such high voltage.
12.5Kv 60 hz is possible and does not involve huge changes to current system.
henry6 The only thng I really know about the catenary rebuild is that it has progressed along MNRR territory from New Rochelle. Sorry I did not make my question clear. Is the rebuild new Constant Tension and 25Kv capable. If so is AMTRAK going to use 25Kv 60 Hz or Mn 12.5Kv? Would be easy enough to switch to NEC power at Harold? There has been some work in NJ, too...on selected portions of selected tracks. Guess you would have to ride those sections to know for sure.
The only thng I really know about the catenary rebuild is that it has progressed along MNRR territory from New Rochelle.
Sorry I did not make my question clear. Is the rebuild new Constant Tension and 25Kv capable. If so is AMTRAK going to use 25Kv 60 Hz or Mn 12.5Kv? Would be easy enough to switch to NEC power at Harold?
There has been some work in NJ, too...on selected portions of selected tracks.
Guess you would have to ride those sections to know for sure.
The only thng I really know about the catenary rebuild is that it has progressed along MNRR territory from New Rochelle. There has been some work in NJ, too...on selected portions of selected tracks. There has also been numerous times where the wire has reportedly come down (old). But I don't know if repair is in kind or if new is installed in its place.
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daveklepper Amtrak has not scrapped the 11000V 25Hz obsolete electrification Sunnyside/Harold Queens, nY - Washington & Harrisburg because it is reliable ..... Dave: I would beg to differ on the reliable portion. Did you note Boardman's having to abandon his Acela trip to BAL? There have been several low voltage incidents the past 12 months and more the past few years ......and works and there are other things that require money,..... I agree that statement is true. ....... specificalliy the old catenary, which gives problems and limits top speed. But all new catenary replacement that is being installed is insulated for the 25000V 60 Hz electrification that Amtrak plans for the future. I cannot speak for the Hell Gate rebuild (Henry can you elobrate?). When the replacement of the US1,US9 overpass at the new Newark Airport station was built the CAT was not upgraded. Although new tracks were added and others moved slightly the variable tension CAT was installed with the same hangers and voltage insulators. As a difference NJ Transit as part of that project installed a second track and Constant Tension 25Kv CAT on its portion of the Bound Brook line from Hunter interlocking to almost Newark Jct. This even though this new CAT was connected to the 12Kv 25 Hz variable tension AMTRAK CAT at Hunter.
Amtrak has not scrapped the 11000V 25Hz obsolete electrification Sunnyside/Harold Queens, nY - Washington & Harrisburg because it is reliable .....
Dave: I would beg to differ on the reliable portion. Did you note Boardman's having to abandon his Acela trip to BAL? There have been several low voltage incidents the past 12 months and more the past few years
......and works and there are other things that require money,.....
I agree that statement is true.
....... specificalliy the old catenary, which gives problems and limits top speed. But all new catenary replacement that is being installed is insulated for the 25000V 60 Hz electrification that Amtrak plans for the future.
I cannot speak for the Hell Gate rebuild (Henry can you elobrate?).
When the replacement of the US1,US9 overpass at the new Newark Airport station was built the CAT was not upgraded. Although new tracks were added and others moved slightly the variable tension CAT was installed with the same hangers and voltage insulators.
As a difference NJ Transit as part of that project installed a second track and Constant Tension 25Kv CAT on its portion of the Bound Brook line from Hunter interlocking to almost Newark Jct. This even though this new CAT was connected to the 12Kv 25 Hz variable tension AMTRAK CAT at Hunter.
As a side note: AMTRAK officially calls their CAT power as 12Kv. I believe this came when PRR uped the High tension voltage supply from 132Kv to 138Kv and did not change any of their transformer taps. That also caused their signal voltage to increase. I do not know if the SEPTA voltage is on the old RDG lines was increased ??
ns3010 A current bulletin order has the Multilevels restricted from Depots 1-14? Please don't think that I am trying to impugn your statement, but something just doesn't add up here... Every day, ML sets from Raritan Valley Line trains make runs on the Main and Burgen County Lines out of HOB. And some 2300 series trains from Bay Head utilize ML equipment. Both you and I have seen MLs on tracks 2-13, so we can agree that somewhere, something isn't right!
A current bulletin order has the Multilevels restricted from Depots 1-14? Please don't think that I am trying to impugn your statement, but something just doesn't add up here...
Every day, ML sets from Raritan Valley Line trains make runs on the Main and Burgen County Lines out of HOB. And some 2300 series trains from Bay Head utilize ML equipment.
Both you and I have seen MLs on tracks 2-13, so we can agree that somewhere, something isn't right!
There's gotta be a change bulletin or order someplace, just railfans don't have access to everything.
Amtrak has not scrapped the 11000V 25Hz obsolete electrification Sunnyside/Harold Queens, nY - Washington & Harrisburg because it is reliable and works and there are other things that require money, specificalliy the old catenary, which gives problems and limits top speed. But all new catenary replacement that is being installed is insulated for the 25000V 60 Hz electrification that Amtrak plans for the future.
Maybe bulletin should have read restricted on tracks 1,14? Oh for the want of a comma?
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Took a peek at an NJT Bulliten today and it says BIlevels are restricted on trackt 1-14. However on Sat. we arrived on track 13!
At one point, the Multilevels were restricted from all tracks in Hoboken, because they were striking the platforms, because of their very low carbodies. This was fixed by moving the tracks a few inches away from the platforms, so the MLs are now allowed. However, Tracks 1 and 14 have platforms on both sides, so it is impossible to move the tracks away from the platforms.
The Multilevels are the same length as the Comets, the standard 85'. Both car types run in sets up to ten cars every day in regular service. The problem is that with the ML's, you have to go either up or down to the mezzanine level, and then down the stairs again onto the low level platforms.
As I said before, NJT has still not ruled out new EMUs. With their love affair with Multilevels, they would most likely be ML EMUs.
The voltage difference is actually because of Amtrak. They had plans to switch to a 25kV system. Becasue of this, NJT made the smart move and matched Amtrak by upgrading the M&E and building the extention from Matawan to Long Branch (NJCL) as a 25kV system. However, Amtrak's plans fell through (I'm not exactly sure why), leaving NJT to get screwed over after doing what was the sensible thing.
Bi levels do have restrictions because of the train shed at Hoboke...I don't have the list in front of me at the moment...
...as for the number of vestibules...that's not the problem. The problem is that, say two vestibules per car are open. If there are fewer but larger cars, it takes longer to board any given number of people. So, if you were to run single level cars and more frequent trains you could reduce dwell times and move trains and people faster. Still, MU is the better way to go as far as acceleration and deceleration are concerned. Voltage change is a problem they created by not standardizing with the Amtrak system when they rewired the M&E and to Long Branch; now they have to deal with it.Another thing to do for faster and more service (more trains) would be the addition of at least a 3rd track from Maplewood to Dover...where the right of way would accomodate it....and for the most part it would even if they had to utilize the Morris County Traction right of way. High platforms stations? Maybe that, too. But definetly another track and MU's.
The Multilevels were at one point restricted from Tracks 1 and 14 in Hoboken, but were allowed on all other tracks. I am not sure if this has changed or is still in effect.
Single level cars do not have any more vestibules available for low level boarding. Each Multilevel has two doors available for low level boarding on each side of the car (cab cars have only one, due to a lack of a door on the engineer's side and a stairwell on the fireman's side), the same as the Comets and Arrows. For high level boarding, they have four doors available per side, as opposed to the Comets and Arrows, which have only three per side (the Comet IIMs have only two doors per side).
The Arrow IIIs, which are the only EMUs that NJT operates, are not capable of making the voltage change on the fly at Kearny Jct. Therefore, they must be assigned to either the Hoboken and Newark Divisions, and cannot be interchanged, unless the switches underneath the cars are flipped manually.
NJT is looking at Multilevel EMUs, but they would be a few years out if they were to go that route.
On Sat. 3/19 I took a Ride With Me Henry group from Denville, NJ on NJT to Montauk, LI, NY on the LIRR. The use of commuter and regional rail in astounding, far more than those who wish not to support it realize. NJT's train at 9:14AM was two minutes late from Denville was 8 bilevel cars long stopping at virtually all stations to Newark enroute to Pennsylvania Station in New York City. Our group of five was about a third of those getting on in Denville and probably the smallest number at all the stops...I doubt there were fewer than 50 at any given location. This of course lenghtened dwell times up to three or more minutes per station which in turn caused the train to lose time on its scheduled 10:48 arrival at New York; infact we were at Newark Broad Street at 10:40 a full 20 minutes behind schedule. Also, track work on the eastbound track from Denville to Morristown forced against traffic operation on the westbound track caused delay at Dover and Morristown. To further complicate things Amtrak had a low voltage problem on the Corridor "from Delaware to Penn Station" according to frequent announcements from our train crew and that it was decided our train would be rerouted to Hoboken Terminal and that PATH would honor our tickets. Because of the bilevel cars our train had to go into the Hoboken trainshed at as straight an angle as possible; that meant tracks 11-14 (we landed on 13) instead of track two which would have been right at the entrance to the PATH station. Now...how many passengers fill a bilevel car? 150? 185? Not sure, but they were all full and upon final stop at about 10:55 ll hit the platform and surged enmasse to the PATH portal and stairway. Nobody rides trains, but this one was packed. In fact everytime I do a Ride With Me Henry trip, the trains are usually filled up to and beyond capacity...and we rarely ride peak hours! And of course the further away from the city the fewer the riders. But the point is that when there is service...not just a train on a track...people will ride.
PATH's weekend scheduling of shuttle Journal Sq to Hoboken to 33rd St. to Hoboken to Journal Sq. on weekends was caught short here. Not their fault as our trainload tried to pile ontop of thier already train load. I presume that some of our group took the second, third, and even fourth PATH train from Hoboken giving them another hour into the city. Inconvenient. Yes. But the job was done. People were carried from the suburbs to the city. Could it have been better handled?
Lets see....the bilevel cars are a problem. Yes ,they carry more people but are slow to load especially at low platform stations and cause long dwell times. And the trains are locomotive pushed or pulled. Thus there is slow acceleration and longer deceleration. Possible solutions: 1) run trains more frequently, instead of hourly maybe half hourly. 2) single level cars allowing for more vestibules to be available for boarding and unboarding. 3) Multiple Unit cars with better acceleration and deceleration. As for cost factors, if people are riding trains at the rate I see, then the extra costs should not be a burden...in fact, better service should attract even more riders when it is more likely to be on schedule and more frequent.
Incidently the LIRR in and out of Penn Station was also as crowded but the train to and from Montauk was not. Their bilevels are not as comfortable nor are you able to see out as well as NJT's. But they did run from Patchouge to Jamaica with only a quick employee stop at Babylon yard in about 35 minutes putting us in Jamaica more than 15 minutes ahead of schedule allowing us to be back in Penn Station over 20 minutes sooner than we planned. NJT was on time out of NYP and crowded but arrival back in Denville was 15 minutes behind the timetable's stated time.
We do have to pay more attention to our commuter rail and regional rail use...look toward service and not just providing a train going that way...
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