I remember reading about a unfinised freight tunnel...,
Unfinished! Unstarted!!! None of them in fact. I've seen and heard plans from Staten Island and NJ, even NY to NY, but never beyond the talking stages. The best thing that could have been done, freight wise, recently would have been to have done something with the Poughkeepsie Bridge.
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The Penn tunnels were used for freight during WW2 accoring to wikipedia. Amtrak had mail trains up untill a few years ago. Running a short single stack conatainer train late night might not be a problem thru penn station or would it?
It might be. Keep in mind that there are some steep grades in and out of Penn Station, mostly because the tunnels are pretty far below sea level. Also, straight diesels can't be run through the tunnels.
Circus trains have run through,too. Catenary is low and platforms are wide making it difficult to run freight...you'd have to cull a train to pick the cars that would fit; time consuming, costly. Yes, the grades in and out under both rivers would be considerations, too. Amtrak, NJT, and the LIRR have enough troubles of their own right now without adding even a one car freight train into the mix at two o'clock on a Monday morning!
I do believe the PRR did try it, not for the duration of WWII but only one time once and it didn't work out.
But in reality there is no need for freight tunnel into and out of Manhatten, no customers, no need. Therefore the Hell Gate bridge stands up from the north should connections be available up the Hudson or through Connecticut. (Great reason to rebuild the Harlem north from Wassaic to Chatham again? Or use the Danbury branch to the Housatonic to State Line, MA?) From the south and west, something from Staten Island into Brooklyn aiming at Fresh Pond might work...as LI becomes more and more crowded, the A&NY becomes more lucrative for moving it; the LIRR and the A&NY have got a lot of work to do over the next 10 or so years. And Fresh Pond is a junction to the Hell Gate line.
Operation of loaded hopper car coal trains eastbound and empties westbound via Penn Station during the night during WWII was a regular practice. My understanding is that mostly double-headed third-rail DC DD-1's were used, not more modern electric power. During WWII the third rail that now stops right at the Jersey Tunnel portal continued for some distance.
Wikipedia actually has a fair article on the proposed NY Cross Harbor Tunnel.I notice they mention use of the tunnel for Freight during WW I, but nothing about WW II.Also, I cannot find anything on the (I guess rumor) that when the Port Authority was originally created in the 1920s, one of it's main project was supposed to be the NY Cross Harbor Tunnel.
And I remember some jabbering about it once or twice after 1955, too.
There was no publicity about the hopper car coal train Penn Station operation, and railroaders who involved mentioned it me many many years ago.
What about Road Railers thru Penn Station? I think they would be in the 14' range as far as height, Say out to Long Island or north to New England?
Rgds IGN
narig01 What about Road Railers thru Penn Station? I think they would be in the 14' range as far as height, Say out to Long Island or north to New England? Rgds IGN
Height might not be an issue but clearing the third rail could be a problem.
Forget about anything other than Amtrak, NJT and LIRR throught NYP...they're having a hard enough time clearing their own trains much less a freight hauler!
The Poughkeepsie Bridge is so much higher in elevation it wasn't very practical for NYC-bound freight, even if you ran trains to Maybrook and then went east to the bridge, it had several logistical compromises that Penn Central was happy when it caught fire in the early 1970s. With that kind of money the Selkirk Hurdle, as they call it, was a wash when compared to the P. Town Bridge and its New Haven trackage rights expense.
The sheer volume of truckage from New Jersey yards to New York City over the Geo. Washington Bridge dwarf the also huge volume of buses using the XBL lanes in the Lincoln Tunnel. Sometimes rail isn't the answer.
One thing I want the answer to is this: where would the rail yard be for the cross-harbor freight tunnel, anyway?
What yard? Why a yard? The idea is to get through the city not to the city. At present there are only two tracks for passenger service only that connect all railroads from the west that would allow traffic through the city to New England. Next track would have been the Poughkeepsie Bridge, then Castleton near Albany. The idea is to get around NY or through it, not to it.
There was talk some years ago, IIRC, of setting up a multi-modal yard at the old Pilgrim State Hospital site. There used to be a spur into the facility for trains with visitors and supplies, including, I imagine, coal. Don't know if any of the infrastructure is still there, and it would probably be too light. This would have good connections with the LIE (interstate) and local roads to Nassau and Suffolk, into the city and even into Westchester and Connecticut. People complained about the potential for increased traffic on the LIRR, much of which would be at night.
There are yards in at the old Bay Ridge and (refurbished) Bush Army Terminal car floats that could be used to sort local traffic
A cross-harbor freight rail tunel would make sense. It would reduce truck traffic into New York considerably and benefit Long Island. It should go from a point on Staten Island, already linked by rail to New Jersey, to a point near Bay Ridge and the LIRR tracks formerly used by the New Haven. The yards exist already and can be expanded in to areas now weeds. These include yards at Bay Ridge, Fresh Point, and via Hell Gate Bridge, Oak Point in the Bronx and a connection to the Hunters Point market. It would cut miles off freight between New England and the South.
That is, of course, Dave, the oldest and touted as the most practical of all plans for such a tunnel. LI's love affair with the automobile and highways resulted in, at one time, an excellent highway system. But once it became over crowded and pollution became rampant, there was no movement to go to the tunnel. So more and more LI freight traffic...what was left of it as agriculture (potatoes and other)became less important and other industries moved out...freight became less and less of a problem if only for the moment. Cap that with the bankurptcy of the Penn Centrai (PRR, NYCRR, NYNH&HRR) with no funds or interest in such a route (it had Selkirk gateway to NE, LI was nothing or could be fed from the north) nor the funds to do it, there was no reason for the tunnel. But now, as population density increases in the Metropolitan area and elsewhere in the northeast and New England, such a tunnel to relieve traffic becomes at least a topic of talk if not a real solution. It happens every 20 to 25 years.
If correctly designed and operated, it could also connect SIRT with the 4th Avenue subway at Bay Ridge (and the subway was designed with such a connection in mind). There would be both catenary and standard third rail, a signal system and ATC compatible with both NEC and subway practice. I both tracks did not have clearances for double-stack, an innovative solution might have three tracks, with the center one actually squeezed betwen the two normal tracks and used only for stack trains between 11pm and 5am, with single-track operation. This would be one part of the subway system that would not have 24 hour operation, with bus service over the Veranzano Bridge substituted during that period so the tunnel would be exlusively rail frieght. Off peak subway service would be every half hour. good enough for the traffic, allowing normal freight trains paths between. Freight would be excluded only during weekday rush hours.
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