I remember that the commuter trains railroads in chicago built there own equipment inhouse fairy cheaply
New Orleans has been using that same cars for over a hundred years--I figure that we could also do the same and strip and renovate indefinatly..
New Orleans streetcars are comparable to San Francisco cable cars, working components of an existing public transit system but tourist attractions in their own right, in part because of their obsolescence.
Short production runs and lack of standardized or modular designs may be the prime culprits in driving up the price of passenger cars. Engineering and other fixed costs are spread over a lesser amount of production, driving up unit costs.
Even freight equipment is not cheap, probably something like $40-50,000 each for a large order of a fairly basic car. A passenger car uses more material for the shell to begin with, and then you start adding, adding, adding..... seats, furnishings, HVAC, windows, electrical supply and lighting, toilets, and so on. Lots of labor to put it all together. If the coach is self-propelled (diesel or electric) the complexity goes up another order of magnitude. As has already been mentioned, each order tends to have its own custom requirements and the design and set-up costs have to be absorbed within a small group.
$5,000 there, 27x$1,000 here, it quickly adds up.
John
The simple answer is Lawyers and Government Regulations.
Lawyers find situations that they can bring to court and sue to correct, and then the Government in a knee jerk reaction tries to over engineer to avoid being sued for the repetition of an event.
[An over simplification of reality? Maybe, but most regulations are reactionary and designed to avoid recurrance of the original problem.]
Well, nowadays, there isn't any local railcar and locomotive manufacturer here in Chicago. All passenger cars come from Japan and are assembled here in the US (WI, i think) the engines come from MK Rail, th F40PHs are the last engines built at La grange, the last engine factory in Illinois. Passenger equipment isn't the only thing in railroads that cost $1M. Freight engines cost a ton too.
bumunderbridge I remember that the commuter trains railroads in chicago built there own equipment inhouse fairy cheaply New Orleans has been using that same cars for over a hundred years--I figure that we could also do the same and strip and renovate indefinatly..
There are a number of commuter railroads that have extisive shops (Metra-Metro North Croton Harmon-MBTA) that could build or rebuild inhouse--It was kind of weird seeing MBTA cars that were 25 years old going on freight trains to the scrap pile....Chicago has old equipement that has been resold to MARC and Nashville and there are escursion train sets that are not being used or used seasonaly at best.
Plus you've got to remember the Federal Government does not pour tons of money into research and development for rail like it does for the likes of airlines. Yeah, military contracts with airplane builders is R&D for the ariline industry!
RIDEWITHMEHENRY is the name for our almost monthly day of riding trains and transit in either the NYCity or Philadelphia areas including all commuter lines, Amtrak, subways, light rail and trolleys, bus and ferries when warranted. No fees, just let us know you want to join the ride and pay your fares. Ask to be on our email list or find us on FB as RIDEWITHMEHENRY (all caps) to get descriptions of each outing.
HENRY, I know you're a terrific guide. I'm not coming to NYC very soon, but I like the idea of Ride With Me Henry (that's not a site, though).
Would you e-mail me so we can stay in touch? smalling_60626@yahoo.com
Thanks, Al Smalling (al-in-chgo)
fatboy There are a number of commuter railroads that have extisive shops (Metra-Metro North Croton Harmon-MBTA) that could build or rebuild inhouse--It was kind of weird seeing MBTA cars that were 25 years old going on freight trains to the scrap pile....Chicago has old equipement that has been resold to MARC and Nashville and there are escursion train sets that are not being used or used seasonaly at best.
Heh, we have several cars that were purchased back from Virginia Railway Express, minus working toilets. I complained to management that they were coupling two of these behind an F40, which also doesn't have facilities. Imagine the poor engineer who has a sudden "potty emergency" (to quote Animaniacs). To further add insult to injury, I understand that the cars were sold for $1.00 apiece to transit agencies, but bought back for $15K each. FWIW, some of the 8400-series cabs are going through at least a refit if not a total rebuild. I don't think these will last as long as their US-built counterparts, or at least not without major effort, usually the kiss of death for railway equipment.
There's a site for cheap equipment
www.ozarkmountainrailcar.com
Old CNW cars starting at $9,000
And I remember when gas was less than 25 cents a gallon!
I can't buy gas for that price today....and you can't but railroad equipment for what it cost 50 years ago either.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Passenger cars have outpaced inflation by a good bit since the 1950s
Inflation from 1955 to now is about 800%. A passenger car cost about $3000 per seat for a 60 seat coach, or $180,000. X8 = $1.4M. A new passenger cars is >$2M these days.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
oltmannd Passenger cars have outpaced inflation by a good bit since the 1950s Inflation from 1955 to now is about 800%. A passenger car cost about $3000 per seat for a 60 seat coach, or $180,000. X8 = $1.4M. A new passenger cars is >$2M these days.
My understanding is that the latest Sumitomo cars on Metra were $1.3 Million a pop, or at least the 7400/8400 series cars were. The 8500 series cabs and the 6000 series cars are somewhat different and may have cost more.
uphogger oltmannd: Passenger cars have outpaced inflation by a good bit since the 1950s Inflation from 1955 to now is about 800%. A passenger car cost about $3000 per seat for a 60 seat coach, or $180,000. X8 = $1.4M. A new passenger cars is >$2M these days. My understanding is that the latest Sumitomo cars on Metra were $1.3 Million a pop, or at least the 7400/8400 series cars were. The 8500 series cabs and the 6000 series cars are somewhat different and may have cost more.
oltmannd: Passenger cars have outpaced inflation by a good bit since the 1950s Inflation from 1955 to now is about 800%. A passenger car cost about $3000 per seat for a 60 seat coach, or $180,000. X8 = $1.4M. A new passenger cars is >$2M these days.
No frills gallery cars? Good deal!
Speaking of air transit, how much does a Boeing 767 cost? Or an Airbus A310?
al-in-chgo Speaking of air transit, how much does a Boeing 767 cost? Or an Airbus A310?
But, the real question is $/seat mile or $/passenger mile. Some rough guestimates show that they are close in cost. Amtrak has about 1400 cars that produce about 1,000,000 seat miles a month. If a 676 has 300 seats and does 5000 miles per day, then I get $100 per seat mile for the plane and $90 for the train.
The plane wins when load factor comes into play. Airlines are running >80% but Amtrak only about 50%. So, airlines would seem to have a lower capital cost per passenger mile for equipment (assuming similar life....)
....math looks bad....gotta check.
I am sorry to see that Amtrak averages only a fifty percent load. From what I've seen of NEC traffic they are almost turning people away. Perhaps some of that low load comes from the political mandate of maintaining L-D trains throughout the winter with far fewer passengers than in the summer (the Builder comes to mind)...so I wonder if those 'excess' coaches that aren't being used have to go on the roster year-round as far as potential active load statistics?
I don't know, but I do know when the airlines have to park major portions of their fleet in the desert (and we are just now getting through a big down period of that), those "time-banked" planes do not figure into load factors -- only what is ready to go up in the air.
Not wishing to dwell on capital costs, because as you say, Oltmannd, they don't tell the whole story, but I am reminded that the era of the $20,000 city bus and the $10,000 bilevel coach was also the era of the $3,000 Buick.
al-in-chgo I am sorry to see that Amtrak averages only a fifty percent load. From what I've seen of NEC traffic they are almost turning people away.
I am sorry to see that Amtrak averages only a fifty percent load. From what I've seen of NEC traffic they are almost turning people away.
Load factors on Amtrak IMHO are somewhat suspect. Amtrak does not disclose how load factors are figured. Questions that need to be answered....
1. Since most trains are capable of having different number of seats any day and different seats on segments (ex: CHI - MSP on the builder) does Amtrak figure each station - station segment for both available seat miles and passenger miles? Would take quite a bit of data imput and computing power.
2. Dead heading equippment I assume to / from maintenance and positioning equipment is not considered? (ex: dome car to Albany for Adirondack).
3. How are revenue cars that are not needed for some segments considered? (ex: Crescent between ATL & New Orleans most times shuts off some coaches from passengers).
4. Airlines have a much easier time allocating these items.
5. As a further confusion Amtrak does publish a peak load factor item but with no definition.
6. Load factors for each route would be more meanifull.
blue streak 1 al-in-chgo: I am sorry to see that Amtrak averages only a fifty percent load. From what I've seen of NEC traffic they are almost turning people away. Load factors on Amtrak IMHO are somewhat suspect. Amtrak does not disclose how load factors are figured. Questions that need to be answered.... 1. Since most trains are capable of having different number of seats any day and different seats on segments (ex: CHI - MSP on the builder) does Amtrak figure each station - station segment for both available seat miles and passenger miles? Would take quite a bit of data imput and computing power. 2. Dead heading equippment I assume to / from maintenance and positioning equipment is not considered? (ex: dome car to Albany for Adirondack). 3. How are revenue cars that are not needed for some segments considered? (ex: Crescent between ATL & New Orleans most times shuts off some coaches from passengers). 4. Airlines have a much easier time allocating these items. 5. As a further confusion Amtrak does publish a peak load factor item but with no definition. 6. Load factors for each route would be more meanifull.
al-in-chgo: I am sorry to see that Amtrak averages only a fifty percent load. From what I've seen of NEC traffic they are almost turning people away.
The computing is easy. Their Arrow system has the train consist and OD pairs for every passenger. Deadheading would be on a status event. Deadheads would be out. A car shut off for the convenience of the crew would be in the count, I would think. (fewer traps to open!! ) By plan, it would be out. I suspect all the Crescent seats south of ATL are in.
Amtrak probably has great volume variability by day of week and is not able to adjust the consists much to suit. In the 1970s, the NEC and Empire trains used to be crazy on Friday evening and Sunday afternoon, but dead in between (excluding Metroliners). I suspect that pattern exists on the other short haul routes. So, lots of people see full or nearly full trains, but much fewer see the Wednesday mid-day train that is only 20% full. (but might turn as a considerably more full Wed evening train and, by Friday, be sold out)
And on an A-Z route, would trips between B and Y, et al., increase or decrease the load factor up or down from 50%? I could see a 100% load factor D-M for instance or a 30% factor D-M for that matter. How does that work into the A-Z figure?
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