I sort of agree with you, Dutch, but just not as adament. The plan is one that has evidently been around the MTA for a while and surfaces every once in a while but never at a more serious and capable time as now: the new 7 Train extension is in a perfect alignment to continue under the river and through the swamps, thus a within reach reality in physical and engineering terms. Everybody's broke, so that arguement can be dismissed; in the political world it is a "who cares" arguement. As for the MTA cannot cross state lines...that's man's law and that can be changed.
Actually agree with you in substance. As outlined in the General Discussion, there are social problems. The 7Train is a blue collar service from Mid Manhatten to Flushing, Queens. NJ would be white collar crowds so perhaps the configuration of the cars would have to be changed or something; two different commuting styles and philosophies at work here. Plus NJT's mantra has always been "One Seat Ride to Manhatten" for the white collar crowd; changing at Secaucus Jct. for a NYC subway instead of Penn Sta. might be a hard sell in that respect.
But the reali problem I have with the idea is that it does not work toward a fully integrated, comprehensive, user friendly, efficient, intra regional heavy rail system allowing for access to all points of the Metropolitan areas from south and west of Philadelphia to the end points of MNRR, LIRR, and NJT as we know them now. Interline equipment, one ticket rides, integrated schedules, through trains, whatever it takes to move people quickly, efficiently, economically. And I don't believe the subway is a part of this concept., not as a snob (I do love the subway), but as a reality.
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First of all King Bloomberg is not in charge at MTA.
second MTA is broke.
Third MTA can not built accross state lines
And final the MTA has already stated a firm no to the ill concieved plan.
See the General discussion above for more on this subject including the latest word on extending the NYC MTA's 7 Train to Secaucus...an idea that evidently has been floated several times over the years but revived in a 4 page memo by NY Mayor Blumberg.
Fri 11/12/10 morning news reports are that Amtrak and NJT have broken off talks...ARC is not in the scope of Amtrak's services.
In the long run this may not really matter as Gov. Christie digs a hole he can't get out of (transporting people across his state-wise) it might be big enough and deep enough to drive a train into!
Mon 11/8 Star Ledger and NJ.com are reporting Amtrak and NJT are talking about joint venture for ARC.
It's even more of a missed opportunity for PATH to connect to the subways like they wanted to originally. It's a lost cause, now, but ridership is huge and it's a viable mode from Hoboken and places like that, anyway.
Oh yeah! That brings up (really down) and important point about how easy it is to talk digging tunnels and going underground in the City when it has been built under for over 100 years. Building basements, utility tunnels for water, sewer, gas and electricity, passage ways, subway tunnels and stations, supports for streets and whatever else: somethings are not even on the charts anymore, so there is a chance of a suprise in every shovelful! Put in a crosstown tunnel and how far down do you have to go before you are actually clearning under everything; probably it becomes more of a roller coaster than the the straight line you think you're building. New from Jersey? the Island? down from the Bronx? extend this from here to there? T'ain't as easy as it sounds.
The actual end of track of PATH at Herald Squar e is south of 32nd Street, not 33rd, but the 33 name was kept after the rebuilding of the station in connection with 6th Avenu Subway construction, late '30's, and early '40's. The planed path to GTC is blocked by many basements and foundations of tall buildings and by the Herald Square station complex itself.
Ahh, 6th. Ave vs. 2nd Ave, yes, I am not familiar enough with Manhattan to know that is silly.
THanks for the info.
AFAIK, the H&M was originally intended to go to Grand Central. This would be an improvement over the present situation.
You are talking distances in less than two miles, but PATH run along 6th Ave to 33rd St. In the long run, the anwer is "no", probably, most likely, not. No reason to consider. Again remember PATH is Port of Authority while subway is MTA which means the two lines could be side by side or one on top of the other and the chance of connecting are miniscule.
Interesting.
Does the opportunity exist to connect PATH with the new 2nd Ave Subway line?
I think that when all the NY City subways became municipally owned while the H&M Railroad remained private was the seal of doom for integration (PRR owned the H&M). This was further nailed shut when the Port Authority took over the H&M renaming it PATH. Politics and turf will keep them apart for a long while yet.
BUt it does point up the real need for a Regional Rail and Transportation Authority, or somethning, to integrate planning, schedules, routings, construction, additions, reconfigurations, equpment utilization, and "other " modifications and adaptations as seen fit to, well, make it all work together to move people to, from, and within a 50 to 100 mile radius of the Big Apple. Heavy rail, rapid transit, light rail, and non rail options should all be included in this system with nothing left out (even freight railroad operations have to be included if only to keep them apart from passenger movements!).
Nevertheless, PATH cars CAN operate on A-division (IRT) tracks in tunnels. except for some signals which need to be moved because the PATH cars are slightly wider at the belt rail only. The original Hudson and Manhattan "black cars" were tested in revenue service on the Second Avenue Elevated (which had the strongest structure of the four), much as the first IND subway cars were tested in BMT Sea Beach Line service.
The changes I am proposing are simple, economical, and very practical.
I think PATH specifications (H&MRR) would have more closely matched the original IRT (numbered lines) which also has skinny and shorter cars and platforms. But, as it turned out, they never agreed to cooperate. They ended up designing and building their own systems. The Hudson & Manhattan Railroad had always intended to branch throughout Manhattan by way of connecting to the subways.
It's somewhat similar to the situation we have today with the numbered NYC subway lines (IRT) being completely separated from the BMT/IND lines as far as the cars and tracks go, but they never tried to cooperate until the city-owned IND came into the picture.
aegrotatio Yes!! PATH doesn't have practical connections in NYC beyond the neighborhoods around their own stations because of an old, 100-year-old grudge. Upgrading its signalling and connecting it with major hubs in NYC and even supporting run-through NYC Subway lines would have gone a long way, but an agreement was never reached.
Yes!! PATH doesn't have practical connections in NYC beyond the neighborhoods around their own stations because of an old, 100-year-old grudge. Upgrading its signalling and connecting it with major hubs in NYC and even supporting run-through NYC Subway lines would have gone a long way, but an agreement was never reached.
Aegrotatio: Its not that easy.
1. PATH was built with a lot of twists and turns
2. The signal systems are close to compatible.
3. Because of the many curves of the PATH system their cars are far shorter than any of the NYC subway cars, LIRR, or MNRR. Even the shorter IRT cars are longer than PATH cars.
4. I have wondered for years why that type of non straight trackage was completed and why no effort has never been made to remedy?
It's a joke you can't reach anything from the one-off PATH system without a long walk on the surface or myriad transfers in midtown, or a loooong ride uptown from WTC. The Gimbels passage was a joke, too (now closed).
PATH is an example of what the competition tried to kill with benign neglect. Then again so is NYP and GCT's annoying distance. So, too, the almost complete disconnection of North Station/South Station in Boston. At least Amtrak partially solved their part of the NYP/GCT problem with the West Side Connection. Pennsylvania was able to connect the Reading and PRR systems with a seemingly "impossible" grade needed to bypass the Reading terminal. East Side Access will bring LIRR commuters midtown.
It's PATH's turn to get a practical solution.
Gov. Christie. Also, as on the Trains thread. Definitely NJ Gas taxes are far too low.
Just Curious, Dave:
Your question about diversion of funds; Are your referencing Gov. Christie of New Jersey ?
Or, Obama and the Washington Govt and their announcement of another $80 (Billion) more for 'Infrastructure'?
And see my comment about massive upgrading of PATH for more efficient use of their tunnes to provide the needed benefit if not the total benefit - on the General Thread.
Dave, there is a discussion on this on the General threads...but, no, political position and positioning has more to do with this than Homeland Security...
Can anyone say he is diverting funds from rail (electfified rail to roads) and is 100% behind the war against terror?
Al lthis talk about subsidization seems to leave out the costs of securing sources of foreign oil, costs in lives as well as gobs of money.
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