NJ Gov Christie is reputed to be ready to kill the ARC tunnel and move the money to roads in NJ. This sets NJ back at least 30 years! Roads are full of traffic, the air full of pollutants, the land full of tar and concrete. You cannot build anymore roads in NJ and patching up what is there is only a band aid on the status quo! As more people have to be moved into and out of NYC, into and out of New Jersey, a better system has to be built. That system includes rails and holes dug under the Hudson. Planners, scientists, transportation experts, environmentalist, even Republican and Democrats seem tohave finally got grip on those facts, so why has not the Governor of the State? Conservatism in holding onto and preserving the past is a lot more expensive that the ARC project. Or is there another rail/tunnel plan in the works? Christie is just not making sense for New Jersey or the region. Why save money now when it will cost more later on. Or does he really want everybody who lives in North Jersey and Pennsylvania to move to Long Island, Westchester, and Conneticuit? Then who will pay his tax bills?
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Done.
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Not done.
http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2010/10/hudson_river_tunnel_project_ma.html
Perhaps postponement until a more elegant name can be found is warranted. "Access to Regional Core" just does not strike me as an attention grabber
My own suggestion is "SOB". That could represent "Son of Big Dig" to give the rest of the country fair warning of what is in store for the taxpayers
In matters like this it would be nice if we prejailed some number of politicans, contractors and union leaders "for the encouragement of the others"!
Definitely not done. The feds will not fund more all-new automobile projects. Indeed that's why there's only one interstate in all of Manhattan when there was supposed to be five or more.
The feds are, however, extremely interested in ARC/THE/Mass Transit Tunnel as well as East Side Access (a somewhat similar project from LIRR to GCT). Name went from ARC to THE and is now Mass Transit Tunnel. Christie needs to get his facts in order.
Personally, I think much more can be accomplished by the freight-only Cross-Harbor Rail Tunnel to the south but the New Jersey dock owners would suffer badly if it were to be built.
Even more amazing, did you know that more people enter New York City from the west by bus using the XBL lanes through the Lincoln Tunnel than all eastbound NYC rail services combined? Think about that.
That may also be affected by where the commuters live and work. Express buses may serve some areas that are not rail-served and the Port Authority Bus Terminal may be closer to the employers of the riders than Penn Station or the various PATH stations.
Hmm, I omitted PATH's 115,000 eastbound riders (230,000 total east/westbound riders) from that calculation. If you were to include PATH, then there are actually more rail passengers than XBL passengers from the west.
Several interesting things about PATH. One is the problem MTA has with them via fares: MTA $2.25, PATH $1.75. PATH has to deliberately make 33rd St to WTC inconveniet so as not to take away from MTA routes. PATH is undergoing renovation of signal and communication systems but is also physically hampered by the demensions and standards it was built with. Train lengths are set by block lengths but more by platform lengths; car lengths set by both tunnel demensions but also by curvatures. New signalling hopefully will allow for an increase in speed which leads to an increase in the number of trains to be operated which means greater capacity. Right now, they do provide great service under often trying circumstances. It was a private enterprise (so were the subways before 1940 for that matter) but has been under public ownership (Port of Authority) for almost 50 years now (I am bad at dates). NJ keeps alive the "one seat ride" mantra thus not allowing for much public support for expansion of PATH in NJ either thus are pushing for another tunnel under the Hudson. I think what it all boils down to is: how important is a one seat ride from hometown to inner city? Probably about half of LIRR commuters change at least once enroute...peak hours less likely than off hours. MNRR to Wassaic, New Canaan, Danbury, and Waterbury mostly the same (several "through" trains duirng peak hours, but midday and weekends are all changes). These have been acceptable, and seem to be acceptable, practices. (Note, LIRR extended electric service to Babylon in the 50's and Ronkonkoma in the 70's or 80's to elimentate a certain amount of "change at Jamaica" and run diesel trains out of LIC and Hunterspoint Ave. to non electified points with passenger pick up at Jamaica from Brooklyn and NYP. NJT is hampered by inheriting about a half dozen different railroads' routes but has managed to come up with Midtown Direct but unless they run wire to High Bridge and Scranton cannot really plug more into it (never mind present corridor capacity).
Quickie capacity analysis.
NJT ALP46 + 10 bilevels. Cost ~$25M. Capacity 1360 passengers. Running on 2 minute headways = 40,800 passengers per hour.
28, 102" wide, 50 passenger MCI D4500 buses cost about $14M. Running at 40 mph with two second following distance at 40 mph = 64,000 passengers per hour.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
That flies in the face of the single track versus six highway lanes capacity figures used for years. Nor do you consider anything more than the cost of the equipment; infrastructure building and maintenance is not inlcuded nor labor (not saying it would change anything, just that these values are not being considered). I also think most buses are more around 45 passenger rather than 50, but I may be wrong there, too. I do find the 28 buses at 2 second intervals at 40 MPH to be incomprehnesible, too. Are the bilevels capacity only 136 per car? I thought it was more like 150.
EDIT ADD: If the bus figure is as stated at 64,000 people per hour, divided by 50 would be 1280 buses and drivers (labor) hardly comprehensible nor cost effective.
oltmannd Quickie capacity analysis. NJT ALP46 + 10 bilevels. Cost ~$25M. Capacity 1360 passengers. Running on 2 minute headways = 40,800 passengers per hour. 28, 102" wide, 50 passenger MCI D4500 buses cost about $14M. Running at 40 mph with two second following distance at 40 mph = 64,000 passengers per hour.
That looks great on paper; but what kind of terminal will there be and what ability to maintain merging and close headways?
A similar problem faced the Chicago Olympics and the bus terminal and spectator logistics for 80,000 fans was I think underestimated - it would take a lot more than half a dozen buses pulling up to the curb as in the artist's rendering. Not that it can't be done; but the scale is much larger than one might imagine. The other problem is how do these many vehicles deal with stops lights entering and leaving a city street system or busway? That's a lot of coordinated scheduling; and people walk, board, and alight at individual speeds.
That's 1,800 bus drivers, but to be fair and compare to train capacity, that's still 1,200 drivers to 180 train crew assuming 1 per 2 cars. Even at 3 times the wages, train labor is half that for the buses.
Just to add on, how many buses does the Port Authority handle an hour just to get some sense of scale of a terminal with a busway alternative? How many from New Jersey (Holland Tunnel?)?
Do many northern NJ buses use the Washington Bridge to Uptown or Midtown?
Terminal capacity is a real killer for rail and bus....
Hasn't the tunnel project been discussed before? Seems to me the $11 billion to a new station under Macy's was hard enough to swallow, let alone the cost of an extension to Queens or Grand Central Terminal. The latter is near capacity and not where you want to connect. God forbid you connect with the 2nd Av line and end up 1-1/2 blocks away from CGT.
And what's so bad about a station annex a block away when there is no platform capacity at Penn Station for additional Jersey trains? Even if the tunnels did connect with Penn Station, the platforms are used to their capacity already. It's a block across Penn Station as it is; and by comparison the concourse from Sixth Av to Eighth Av has much longer blocks (I've made that trek).
A new terminal is needed. It doesn't have to be used by Amtrak because the Annex can divert enough NJT trains to free up capacity for some Amtrak service expansion south from New York.
Service north is still limited by LIRR needs which is why the crosstown extension to Queens would be desirable. Whether Second Av is a workable alternative for GCT and Long Island City is outside my experience.
A crosstown extension from new Hudson River tunnels is dependent on relocating a major water main. which would take time regardless of a high or low tunnel.
Btw, watching the XBL lanes to the Lincoln Tunnel is really amazing, it's just like bus after bus and seems to go on forever for hours.
Back to ARC/THE/Mass Transit Tunnel, there must be a new terminal. I'm a supporter and member of NARP but their position on this is completely wrong based on the facts. I wonder how many of them have actually been to NYP at all. The Amtrak platforms are completely insufficient for commuter use. It's difficult to alight any Amtrak or NJT car and egress is a slow, painful plod on skinny platforms blocked by huge columns and other detritus. The skinny, long elevators and stairways (or lack thereof) are a joke. By comparision, the LIRR platforms are wide and easy to navigate, but most of them can't be effectively reached from the North River tunnels so they can't really be used for NJT.
Next time you're in NYP compare the LIRR platforms to the Amtrak/NJT platforms and you will see that something new must be built to effectively increase capacity at NYP for New Jersey commuters.
aegrotatio Btw, watching the XBL lanes to the Lincoln Tunnel is really amazing, it's just like bus after bus and seems to go on forever for hours. Back to ARC/THE/Mass Transit Tunnel, there must be a new terminal. I'm a supporter and member of NARP but their position on this is completely wrong based on the facts. I wonder how many of them have actually been to NYP at all. The Amtrak platforms are completely insufficient for commuter use. It's difficult to alight any Amtrak or NJT car and egress is a slow, painful plod on skinny platforms blocked by huge columns and other detritus. The skinny, long elevators and stairways (or lack thereof) are a joke. By comparision, the LIRR platforms are wide and easy to navigate, but most of them can't be effectively reached from the North River tunnels so they can't really be used for NJT. Next time you're in NYP compare the LIRR platforms to the Amtrak/NJT platforms and you will see that something new must be built to effectively increase capacity at NYP for New Jersey commuters.
Agreeded: As long as good connections to the present NYP are provided and the dead end station can eventually be extended to GCT and thru East River tunnels. Platforms at present certainly are not wide enough on tracks 1- 14?
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