Back-up moves, for outbound locomotive-hauled trains, staging in Grand Central Terminal, were controlled by a "trainman" on the rear with the trainline cord to the motor. Never saw one hit the bumper post. Of course, the 'trainman' could dump the air if the motorman didn't respond. I never saw 'pigtails' used, except in the Chicago area, mostly on the C&NW. That was 'new-to-me' in the '50s.
Hays
the north western apparently used a wide variety of backup moves. back in 1942-43 after school i/d go watch the evening commuter rush through ravenswood sstation in chicago. once a day there'd be an empty commuter train hustling south with the 4-6-2 running backwards on the point. later i realized this must have been a 'short turn', turning back at a point with only a runaround siding. its speed was only moderate; about 35-40 mph. later, 44 to 47, i rode the 'south minnesota 400' several times a year, and this always involved a 3-mile backup move into la crosse, WI, with a trainman standing on the open-platform observation using the pigtail, blowing the little peanut whistle for the grade crossings. -big duke
BNSFwatcherI remember an incident, while commuting on the New York Central's Harlem Division. We had a train of 4500-series MU coaches. The lead car went T/U. The motorman (engineer) moved to the second car and ran it from there, head out the window. The conductor moved to the lead car and communicated with the motorman via the electric buzzer system. We arrived in North White Plains "OT". Aren't radios wonderful? Don't try this today.
I remember an incident, while commuting on the New York Central's Harlem Division. We had a train of 4500-series MU coaches. The lead car went T/U. The motorman (engineer) moved to the second car and ran it from there, head out the window. The conductor moved to the lead car and communicated with the motorman via the electric buzzer system. We arrived in North White Plains "OT". Aren't radios wonderful? Don't try this today.
One of the reasons this is not a good idea is the potential for miscommunications. The one I remember hearing about was an NYCTA subway accident in Queens in the 70's. Lead car had a control problem and after the train was empty the motorman ran the train from the 3rd car, with the conductor using the pa to communicate.
What happened next was a red signal(absolute stop) which was run thru. Due to the lead car being in a dead spot the lead car had no power and the conductor could not use the pa. The motorman had no idea about the signal that was run thru. Because the problem of the lead car was disabled the other controls the automatic train stop did not stop the train when it ran thru the stop signal.
The train then struck the middle of another train that was in the switch. I forget the number of fatalities in this.
Rgds IGN
I know that on NJT, there is a specific rule about PL42ACs (wide bodied locos, similar to GE Genesis locos) not being able to run "long hood forward." In addition, locos without a rear stepwell (such as the PL42s and Genesis) may not be used in switching applications, due to safety issues.
The only exception to this is when NJT makes moves from the MMC to Hoboken, which is only a short distance.
I'd assume the same rule applies to the P40s, as well as on other railroads.
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henry6 blue streak 1 Have seen AMTRAK trains on the SAN Jose - Oakland run be operated by the Engineer in a cab car backing the train from a station, crossing over a grade crossing and CP, with the conductor operating the horn and brake if necessary. The conductor then got on the passenger car next to the engine and when the CP cleared the engineer then proceeded ahead. Happened at the Oakland airport station. This would be yard move and be permissable...in fact is the way it should be done. As for mainline, regular operation, things are quite different. Push Pulls have an operating cab at the opposite end of the locomotive. MU's have operating cabs at each end of the train plus several in between depending upon the configuration of the equipment.
blue streak 1 Have seen AMTRAK trains on the SAN Jose - Oakland run be operated by the Engineer in a cab car backing the train from a station, crossing over a grade crossing and CP, with the conductor operating the horn and brake if necessary. The conductor then got on the passenger car next to the engine and when the CP cleared the engineer then proceeded ahead. Happened at the Oakland airport station.
Have seen AMTRAK trains on the SAN Jose - Oakland run be operated by the Engineer in a cab car backing the train from a station, crossing over a grade crossing and CP, with the conductor operating the horn and brake if necessary. The conductor then got on the passenger car next to the engine and when the CP cleared the engineer then proceeded ahead. Happened at the Oakland airport station.
This would be yard move and be permissable...in fact is the way it should be done. As for mainline, regular operation, things are quite different. Push Pulls have an operating cab at the opposite end of the locomotive. MU's have operating cabs at each end of the train plus several in between depending upon the configuration of the equipment.
Actually this was a revenue trip of either train 532 or 538 at Oakland Coliseum. There is a station track separate from the two main lines on the east side of the double track. The train pulled in north bound and instead of continuing on the east side track backed up across the universal cross overs south of the station to access the west track because the east track was fouled by a train from this station to the Oakland station. So is was not a yard move. and it was a push pull operating west (north bound by compass) in push mode. Saw red signal at north end and surprize when we started backing south. (moment of panic).
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I remember MU rules from the DL&W stated that if the front cab could not be used the engineer could operate the train from another cab providing there was a qualified person in the front cab in communication with him (there actually was special wording taking circumstances and safety into account).. Back then only engineers were qualified to operate the train, i.e. there was not cross qualifying as is the case today (even if another were a qualified engineer, if he were assigned to the train as conductor he would not be allowed to be the "engineer"). The point is that where there were and are MU operations the books of rules provide for such emergency operation.
Could be that the NYC motorman stayed in the lead car and operated the brakes. He would have had to give his controller key to the conductor/trainman that ran it from the second unit. Dunno, and dunno about if the NYC MUs had an override. Anyhoo, we got home "OT".
Falcon48I remember commuter trains on the C&NW running through Edison Park (on what's now the UP Northwest Line) in reverse. These were standard trains, not push-pull trains with cab cars (which shows how old I am), probably empty equipment moves. The way it worked was that the conductor was in the lead (rear) car, controlling the brakes with a tail hose, so he could operate the brakes directly without communicating with the engineer if he needed to make a stop. I know that Chicago commuter roads still make short moves with tail hoses, but these were main line moves of many miles (probably from what was then the Des Plaines coach yard to Chicago).
Exactly! On the Galena (West) Division, they "tailhosed" (yes, that was the NorthWestern word for it) from the West Chicago yards to various stations.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
On many mu cars, possibly the South Shore's also, a service brake application immediately opens the line switches in all cars to prevent motor powering at the same time as braking. There were mu's that did not have this feature. Interestingly, I think the LIRR MP-54 DC mu's did have this feature but the PRR MP-54 AC nu's did not.
BNSFwatcher I remember an incident, while commuting on the New York Central's Harlem Division. We had a train of 4500-series MU coaches. The lead car went T/U. The motorman (engineer) moved to the second car and ran it from there, head out the window. The conductor moved to the lead car and communicated with the motorman via the electric buzzer system. We arrived in North White Plains "OT". Aren't radios wonderful? Don't try this today.
When was really young, I remember commuter trains on the C&NW running through Edison Park (on what's now the UP Northwest Line) in reverse. These were standard trains, not push-pull trains with cab cars (which shows how old I am), probably empty equipment moves. The way it worked was that the conductor was in the lead (rear) car, controlling the brakes with a tail hose, so he could operate the brakes directly without communicating with the engineer if he needed to make a stop. I know that Chicago commuter roads still make short moves with tail hoses, but these were main line moves of many miles (probably from what was then the Des Plaines coach yard to Chicago).
The engineer will be in a control cab located at the front of the leading coach, not in the engine at the rear, so visibility is not a problem. The MU capabilities of diesel locomotives easily allow this.
In Britain they used to have "Auto-trains" that would do this with a small tank engine and one or two coaches on minor branchlines. In that case I think there was a mechanical linkage, and with steam you would still have a fireman in the locomotive cab.
John
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