henry6 Phoebe Vet You do understand the difference between Federal oversight of subways and Federal Nationalization, don't you? Did you misrepresent the headline intentionally? For those who don't get the gist of Fox News, this statement shows the difference between Fox News' "fair" slant ("Nationalization) with all other liberal media factual slant ('oversight"). You decide!
Phoebe Vet You do understand the difference between Federal oversight of subways and Federal Nationalization, don't you? Did you misrepresent the headline intentionally?
You do understand the difference between Federal oversight of subways and Federal Nationalization, don't you? Did you misrepresent the headline intentionally?
For those who don't get the gist of Fox News, this statement shows the difference between Fox News' "fair" slant ("Nationalization) with all other liberal media factual slant ('oversight"). You decide!
It be better to check both out then come up with something like ---
It be BOTH turf expansion AND oversight. Normal scenario in ANY organization--private (boy, do I know this one!!) or public(BTDT). The trick is to let those that know summat of what they are doing do their jobs---
henry6That does not mean certain criteria cannot be used as guidelines when it comes to safety, public needs, and certain other standards and standardizations of equipment and appliances cannot be used. The PCC cars are a good example of a piece of equipment that was a universal success because it did allow for market to market differences and still be a standard. (A friend often points out to me that the PCC cars are the only success every to come out of a committee!)
Agree here. Sometimes a form of standardization comes in handy.
The PCC cars success may be interpreted as being inspite of a committee's wants/needs!!!
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
Despite what most people here think I say, I would not be in favor of such "nationalization" as inferred in the headline. Each transit system is so parochial that there is no "cookie cutter" approach. Traffic densities, geography, climate, end point to end point distances, station to station distance, street or non street, etc. all make each system individual. That does not mean certain criteria cannot be used as guidelines when it comes to safety, public needs, and certain other standards and standardizations of equipment and appliances cannot be used. The PCC cars are a good example of a piece of equipment that was a universal success because it did allow for market to market differences and still be a standard. (A friend often points out to me that the PCC cars are the only success every to come out of a committee!)
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As a retired Class 1 railroad person who was heavily involved in FRA regulation, I have mixed reactions to this announcement. On the one hand, FRA type regulation of transit systems is likely bring with it a whole pile of non safety related baggage which has nothing to do with safety and a whole lot to do with protecting various political constituancies, as it has in the rail industry. On the other hand, some of the recent transit accidents have simply been mind boggling, and raise serious questions as to the design and maintenance of transit sytems. The Washington DC wreck, apparently caused by the malfuncton of a singe sensor, is a case in point. Where are the redundancy or fail safe features normally found in railroad signal systems? The CTA "Blue Line" derailment caused by a wide gauge condition in a subway is another. Wide gauge conditions don't just happen suddenly. The track structure gives ample warning of this condition which can be readily detected by a competent track inspector.
On balance, I guess I come down in favor of "safety first". I see sufficient evidence that some rail transit sytems are not properly designed or are not being properly maintained to warrant federal intervention, in spite of all of the excess baggage it may bring.
My 2 cents worth.
1.The heading of this is overly bombastic.
2.The subject that came up was apparently WMATA rail operation did not have much in the way of safety oversight either internally or externally. NYCTA has (New York City subways) has had a strong commitment to safety internally. BART (SF Bay area) has had to deal with safety reps from the state PUC(Public Utilities Committee)
I am not sure about other operations. Most transit authorities usually have an external safety review from either a state authority or FRA(Metro North, SEPTA, other railroad operations) .
WMATA is kind of an exception in that they are not Heavy Rail subject to FRA rules and as a multi state operation( MD, VA, DC) they are not subject to oversight by a single state jurisdiction.
Hence when that really awful accident happened earlier this year NTSB saw that there was not an external check (& balance) to any potential safety concerns. In addition it happened in the FEDERAL backyard(Washington "DC")
I'm not sure how to phrase or color this, but essentially the problem is that WMATA does not have any major oversight. I've seen commentary elsewhere about how FTA rules are easier to deal with than FRA rules(300,000Lb buffer strength, Crash worthiness, Etc)
The other item is that, if I remember correctly, MATA board is appointed not elected.
Not sure what else to say.
Rgds IGN
samfp1943 From The Washington Post (via Drudge Report) "Federal oversight of subways proposed" "Red Line crash spurred safety plan Obama administration to push for Congress to change law."The Obama administration will propose that the federal government take over safety regulation of the nation's subway and light-rail systems... Under the proposal, the U.S. Department of Transportation would do for transit what it does for airlines and Amtrak: set and enforce federal regulations to ensure that millions of passengers get to their destinations safely. Administration officials said the plan will be presented...to Congress, which must approve a change in the law. The proposal would affect every subway and light-rail system in the country, including large systems in Washington, New York, Boston, Los Angeles and San Francisco.... "
From The Washington Post (via Drudge Report)
"Federal oversight of subways proposed"
Under the proposal, the U.S. Department of Transportation would do for transit what it does for airlines and Amtrak: set and enforce federal regulations to ensure that millions of passengers get to their destinations safely. Administration officials said the plan will be presented...to Congress, which must approve a change in the law.
The proposal would affect every subway and light-rail system in the country, including large systems in Washington, New York, Boston, Los Angeles and San Francisco.... "
If this proposal is enacted, the real story is not nationalization, but turf expansion. Before railway safety oversight was shifted from the old ICC to FRA (and into the executive branch), it was an open secret that the 'crats itched to take on oversight of transit and commuter operations as well, something that lay beyond the grasp of the old ICC, which was charged with regulating interstate commerce, not tranist operations -- where its presence was both unwanted and unwelcome.
In truth, FRA safety staffers would welcome this addition to their portfolio of responsibilities. Since rail industry dereg, derailments, grade crossing collisions, reportable accidents (to OSHA, not FRA) and all other measures of disaster that federal oversight is supposed to prevent, have trended steadily downward, far enough that one could legitimately ask. "What do we need all these bozos for, anyway?"
As an agency struggling to maintain its funding, the proposed oversight of commuter and transit rail ops promises to be a bonanza for the boys in Southwest DC. Lots of commuter and transit systems are old, obsolete, dilapidated, and should offer FRA a cornucopia of safety ills and questionable practices to correct (think of Chicago's CTA, for example). Moreover, the "safety" oversight allegedly provided up to now at the state and local level is clearly a joke, so the annexation of turf comes at little cost to the affected locales.
In sum, for FRA, at the least a three-run homer; at most a potential grand slam.
As to whether federal safety oversight will improve transit industry safety, and whether the touted improvements (which we will certainly hear about, whether any ensue of not -- think of Don Phillips being on FRA's payroll) are worth the added expense, that's another matter.
For more on the subject of turf expansion, and other subtle aspects of this perception, see THE AGENCY GAME: Inside the Bureaucratic Jungle. A reading of this masterpiece makes clear the extent of FRA's turf expansion.
If you believe that I am a Democrat, then you are in error. One does not have to be a member of, or even in agreement with, group A in order to see that group B's little red choo choo has gone chugging 'round the bend. 22 years of law enforcement has taught me to recognize ulterior motives when I see them.
That said, I am in complete agreement with your last paragraph.
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
Phoebe Vet Perhaps I am overly sensitive, but your headline was a distortion of the facts, and I personally am fed up with the Republican Party, Fox News, and an assortment of rabble rouser's on AM radio who twist and distort everything that the current administration does in an attempt to keep conservatives in a constant state of fear that the country is being destroyed. A good example is the labeling of the heads of various federal agencies "Czars" in an attempt to make them sound evil. I am also tired of people taking every opportunity, in every forum in which they communicate, to repeat the lies and distortions. The subways and light rail systems are not being nationalized. If I have misinterpreted your post, then I apologize.
Perhaps I am overly sensitive, but your headline was a distortion of the facts, and I personally am fed up with the Republican Party, Fox News, and an assortment of rabble rouser's on AM radio who twist and distort everything that the current administration does in an attempt to keep conservatives in a constant state of fear that the country is being destroyed. A good example is the labeling of the heads of various federal agencies "Czars" in an attempt to make them sound evil. I am also tired of people taking every opportunity, in every forum in which they communicate, to repeat the lies and distortions.
The subways and light rail systems are not being nationalized.
If I have misinterpreted your post, then I apologize.
The OP was being a little misleading I suspect but then with all the stuff going on about 'change' and all that I'm not at all surprised at the rigmarol going on.
Of course, the implication in your post seems to say that the Democrats can do no wrong---
I think that instead of politicizing this whole thing further that we just look at the scenario for what it may be instead---a simple standardization of the regulations such that the safety of both passengers and staff is such that there is a set practice in place across the board. The FAA do not run the airlines. The FRA does not own the RR so---?
Phoebe Vet The subways and light rail systems are not being nationalized.
Well, technically they already are and have been for years! :) Don't most rail systems qualify for Federal transit funds? And hasn't every transit system or line built in the past 20 years had to comply with the Americans with Disabilities Act?
But yes, the thread is highly misleading. Though if I can take a subway ride from Los Angeles to Chicago to NYC that might not be too bad, LOL
samfp1943As an adddendum: TRAINS Newswire has a similar piece on todays Wire. For those of you who subscribe. It is similar, and as well, notes that Sec. of Transportation ( a former US Senator ) Ray La Hood plans to push his legislative agenda in the Congress and Senate. Hard to figure if he is really trying to help safety or advance an empire building, bigger government agency agenda? My
As an adddendum:
TRAINS Newswire has a similar piece on todays Wire. For those of you who subscribe.
It is similar, and as well, notes that Sec. of Transportation ( a former US Senator ) Ray La Hood plans to push his legislative agenda in the Congress and Senate. Hard to figure if he is really trying to help safety or advance an empire building, bigger government agency agenda?
My
That's inaccurate. Ray LaHood was a member of the US House of Representatives, not the Senate.
And he's also a Republican, if his party affiliation matters to you.
PhoebeVet:
I probably should have included a more thorough explanation of the issue of "Nationalization..." used as the Threads title. As was stated, I was attracted to the original article from a Drudge Report tease line on its page. The original article was from the By-Lined piece in the Washington Post. As I had credited. Unfortunately that article is now removed to their web site and accessed by membership(free).
For the reasons previously stated, I had hoped to provoke what would be some interesting exchanges on the topic on this Forum. As our current Administration moves in what seems to be many different directions to accomplish a consolidation of more Federal power with in its perview, (ie. The various czars a poster had mentioned, and the apparent FUBAR of the Chatsworth wreck and demands on more safety appliances to be ordered, and so on, ad nauseum.)
We already have a number of agencies assigned to various activities within the rail transport industry, and on its face the spectre of a former legislator, Ray LaHood trying to grow his Federal Department into more power and newer areas of control. So where ever in the spectrum that Forum members come down on, I felt it would be an interesting discussion.
A quote from the article above:
"Under the proposal, the U.S. Department of Transportation would do for transit what it does for airlines and Amtrak: set and enforce federal regulations to ensure that millions of passengers get to their destinations safely."
Perhaps having Transportation oversee these subway and light rail systems would increase the chances of passengers getting somewhere safely, but they can not ensure it. Remember Chatsworth.
Look carefully. Row 10, plot D (the one with the winged angel) is the final resting place of Boss Mike Quill, of the UTW. His great-grandson, Mile Quill, IV will, soon, be in charge of ALL the transit workers in the United States. Philadelphia, you haven't seen anything, yet! Time to buy a bicycle!
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
Any evidence that he's putting politics and power ahead of safety? As opposed to, say, the organization whose lack of safety killed nine people?
RWM
Regardless, too bad governmental agencies don't have natural life spans.
Mark
tomikawaTTGotta find cushy, meaningless jobs for all those party hacks who got out the vote, mate. I'm sure that some political appointee in Washington will know more about accident investigation and prevention than the credentialed engineers (civil, mechanical, electrical) already employed by the subway and light rail operators - many of which are local, state or interstate governmental agencies. It would make just about as much sense to nationalize taxicabs (which suffer far more accidents.) Chuck
Gotta find cushy, meaningless jobs for all those party hacks who got out the vote, mate.
I'm sure that some political appointee in Washington will know more about accident investigation and prevention than the credentialed engineers (civil, mechanical, electrical) already employed by the subway and light rail operators - many of which are local, state or interstate governmental agencies.
It would make just about as much sense to nationalize taxicabs (which suffer far more accidents.)
Chuck
Given the actual results at WAMTA, it's possible they could do much better, too.
To be consistent, should we also propose dismantling the FRA, and we should instead have the railroads themselves, regulate, inspect, monitor, and issue fines to themselves for rail safety? Or devolve the FRA role to the 50 states to each have their own safety program? Or the thousands of municipalities?
samfp1943Under the proposal, the U.S. Department of Transportation would do for transit what it does for airlines and Amtrak: set and enforce federal regulations to ensure that millions of passengers get to their destinations safely.
So how does this action in any way threaten a federal takeover of local transit anymore than the relevant federal agencies (FSTB, etc.) threaten Amtrak, UP, NS, the airlines. etc. with nationalization?
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
Stix:
You are absolutely correct.
My point in the posting was regardless of source there is a level of truth, whatever side you come at that resource. As interested individuals whose interest lies in what takes place in our Country regarding the Railroad industry, there is as well a real interest in the area of public transportation; Local and national, and many of us are out here in the 'hinterlands', have limited resources, so getting infromation from wherever and what ever source, can provide each of us with a perspective that we might normally not be exposed to.
To that individual who is interested, I posted a sourced story (Washington Post). Each individual is welcome to read it, and digest it in whatever political or individual venue they might choose. Right,Left or Center.
With the political climate in a state of "Change", and some individuals concerned with either a loss of local influence, potential loss (or gain) in a level of Federal funding. I thought that posting this article would be thought provoking, and conversationally interesting to those who come by this FOURM to see what's happening in our areas of interest.
Your perspective is always welcome!
Sometimes odd things tend to muddle things up---one of them being a kind of tinfoil hat.
One could oversee those who claim to be overseers---so that it does not become another way to 'nationalize' something
I'm only suggesting----
With respect, your thread title ("Federal Nationalization of Subways and light rail???") is very misleading. The article you mention doesn't say anyone wants the federal government to "nationalize" anything. It says there is a proposal to put "local" rail safety issues under the federal government's safety regulations the way interstate rail operations are....
samfp1943 Link to article in Washington Post (via a Drudge Report item) Under the proposal, the U.S. Department of Transportation would do for transit what it does for airlines and Amtrak: set and enforce federal regulations to ensure that millions of passengers get to their destinations safely. Administration officials said the plan will be presented in coming weeks to Congress, which must approve a change in the law.
Link to article in Washington Post (via a Drudge Report item)
Under the proposal, the U.S. Department of Transportation would do for transit what it does for airlines and Amtrak: set and enforce federal regulations to ensure that millions of passengers get to their destinations safely. Administration officials said the plan will be presented in coming weeks to Congress, which must approve a change in the law.
Also note that, in case you're not aware of it, the Drudge Report is written by an extreme right-wing conservative who isn't really reporting facts but is trying to skew and mislead people to further his/their radical political beliefs. As with any blog, you always have to take it with a grain of salty skepticism.
Well we have a Czar for everything. Why not a oversight agency for everything? Seriously this si getting annoying.
Yes we are on time but this is yesterdays train
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/11/14/AR2009111402459_pf.htm
Headline: "Federal oversight of subways proposed""Red Line crash spurred safety plan Obama administration to push for Congress to change law"By Joe Stephens and Lena H. SunWashington Post Staff WritersSunday, November 15, 2009
"The Obama administration will propose that the federal government take over safety regulation of the nation's subway and light-rail systems, responding to what it says is haphazard and ineffective oversight by state agencies.
I thouight we already had enough Federal oversight agencies? I guess Sec. of Transportation feels we need MORE ! I thought this might get some conversations going here! ( Read the article linked above)
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