Falcon48 I don't know this as a fact, but I suspect that the term "engineer" as applied to the operator or driver of a steam locomotive in this country arose because the duties of early steam loco operators had as much to do with monitoring and tinkering with the steam apparatus as it did with driving the train. The engine related duties were very similar to those of the mechanical officers of steamships which, in the 19th century, were also called engineers.
I don't know this as a fact, but I suspect that the term "engineer" as applied to the operator or driver of a steam locomotive in this country arose because the duties of early steam loco operators had as much to do with monitoring and tinkering with the steam apparatus as it did with driving the train. The engine related duties were very similar to those of the mechanical officers of steamships which, in the 19th century, were also called engineers.
I have a feeling the reason is more base than that. The operator or driver of an engine was called engineer simply because he comandeered or controled an engine. Yes, he had to have skill and knowledge about the appuratus he was operating, but the term is a simpler derivitive.
RIDEWITHMEHENRY is the name for our almost monthly day of riding trains and transit in either the NYCity or Philadelphia areas including all commuter lines, Amtrak, subways, light rail and trolleys, bus and ferries when warranted. No fees, just let us know you want to join the ride and pay your fares. Ask to be on our email list or find us on FB as RIDEWITHMEHENRY (all caps) to get descriptions of each outing.
New Orleans has the oldest continuosly operating streetcar line in the world, and, except for suspended service due to hurricane Katrina, has been going down St. Charles Street since 1893. The line uses vintage 900 Series cars from the 1920s which were built by Perely A. Thomas Car Works. Two other lines in the city which have been reopened after lying dormant for many years use replicas of the 1920 era cars.
daveklepper Ah, yes, and in Great Britain, whom we call an engineer is called a driver. Interurbans and streetcars had motormen and conductors, in the two-man days, and public continued to call them motormen in many cases, even after one-mann operation began. Most transit systems went to one-man operation in stages, so they had motormen, conductors, and operators, the latter the people running the one-man cars, but the name operator never caught on with the public. While driver was reserved for those operating the buses. And nearly all street railway and interuban companies did have bus subsidiaries.
Ah, yes, and in Great Britain, whom we call an engineer is called a driver. Interurbans and streetcars had motormen and conductors, in the two-man days, and public continued to call them motormen in many cases, even after one-mann operation began. Most transit systems went to one-man operation in stages, so they had motormen, conductors, and operators, the latter the people running the one-man cars, but the name operator never caught on with the public. While driver was reserved for those operating the buses. And nearly all street railway and interuban companies did have bus subsidiaries.
CSSHEGEWISCHOn the other hand, in Chicago, it's always the L, even when it's in a median strip or in a tunnel under the street.
Right, and the Loop is often used to refer to areas near the actual blocks circumscribed by the L (Lake to Van Buren; Wabash to Wells).
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
As a general rule of thumb, in New York, it's almost always the subway, even when it's on a steel structure above the street. The only "els" in New York are the handful of remaining older lines that were built separately from the subway system.
On the other hand, in Chicago, it's always the L, even when it's in a median strip or in a tunnel under the street.
In response to an earlier critique. I never heard anyone going to the elevated lines used by the 1, 2, 4, 5 (including Dyar Avenue line) 7, or J say they were going to the "elevated. "L," or "El." Only "subway." Even thought they were about to climb up staris instead of down. As far as the B, D, F, and Q in Brooklyn, again it was "the train," not subway or elevated. I now understand it still is.
And soutbound Yonkers 1, 2, and 3, streetcars (Third Avenue system pale yellow and bright red trolleycars) had SUBWAY as the destination sign, even thourgh they would reverse direction under, not over, the 242nd Street and Broadway station, definitely an elevated station. And the exact same destination sign was used for a different destination, refering to the 241st Street and White Plains Avenue station, also elevated, for southbound cars from New Rochelle on the A line "interurban" streetcar. (New Rochelle, Pelham, Mount Vernon, The Bronx). The exception is the M line in Brooklyn, where people do refer to "the elevated" because the elevated structure used by that line on Myrtle Avenue is not used by any other route, the whole route in Brooklyn is elevated, and (most important), until about 1967 or later, the full time service was by genuine elevated trains (open-platform "gate cars" until displaced the "Q's" from the 3rd Ave. El and before that the BMT Queens service) running to Bridge and Jay streets in downtown Brooklyn, and the steel-car trains to Manhattan were weekday 5AM-11PM only. I think this section of Brooklyn is the very last place in New York City where peoply talk about using the "El" or "L".
On the two-man streetcars in Montreal, I clearly remember the motormen's caps: "Le Guard du Moteaur."
Of course a lot of people in Westchester and The Bronx called streetcar operators "trolleymen."
And for that matter, the term engineer can cause much confusion. Driver would be the dictionary term for one who operates or controls a locomotive or engine, but we call one an engineer because one comandeers an engine. The term operator would be applicable but in railorading parlance, an operator is one who controls a point on the railroad where orders are issued, etc. and may or may not be an agent or leverman. Brakemen, of course, no longer run from car to car setting brakes, either. Ah, what a topic which could go on almost endlessly!
ComradeTaco Most people I've heard talking about the Green Line have called the LRV's trolleys, which seems to imply the use of trolley pole,rather than the pantograph currently in use.
Most people I've heard talking about the Green Line have called the LRV's trolleys, which seems to imply the use of trolley pole,rather than the pantograph currently in use.
As a historical (but largely useless) factoid, the term "trolley" didn't derive from electric cars that used a trolley pole. It derives from current collection device used on very early electric streetcars called a "troller". This was a little wheeled device that rolled along a dual overhead and was pulled by a cable attached to the car. So it's as technically accurate to call a streetcar with a pantograph a "trolley" as it is to use the term for a car with a pole.
While a little off topic, another term that derived from obsolete technolgy but stuck long after the technology was gone was the term "motorman" as applied to the operator of an electric car. The reason for the term is that early electric streetcars had the electric motor (which,in those days, required constant tinkering) on the platform with the operator, connected to the wheels by a chain (much like a bicycle). The name stuck long after the motors were gone from the operator's position.
Try these on your friends next time you play trivial pursuit and watch the eyes roll.
bedell News of the transit stirke in the Philadelphia area reminds me of something interesting in our American idiom. In Philly a streetcar is a "trolley"; in the Bay Area a commuter train was a "commute" on the SP; etc. Can you think of any others?
News of the transit stirke in the Philadelphia area reminds me of something interesting in our American idiom. In Philly a streetcar is a "trolley"; in the Bay Area a commuter train was a "commute" on the SP; etc. Can you think of any others?
Hello All! Many South Jersey natives refer to PATCO's Hi-Speed Line as either the "Lindenwold Speed Line" or simply "The Speed Line". Here in Maryland, during B&O days, many commuters riding the railway's familiar RDC DMU carriages spoke of using such stock as "taking the Budd Car". Penn Central crews working aboard the two 1970s Baltimore-Washington roundtrips using ancient MP54 EMU cars called them by their own special pet nicknames, but those favourite old monikers aren't fit to repeat in polite company! Cheers! John Floyd II
Please, please, please folks, let's spell Chicago's own correctly. Where the Ravenswood line crosses Wacker Drive just south of the Chicago River, the C.T.A. once displayed a promotional sign that referred to its rail operations as the
'L
Please notice the apostrophy appearing before the letter. In greater Gotham, it is the "El," but Chicago has the 'L.
Right, and in certain cases tube stock needs to operate over underground exclusive passenger service lines to reach overhaul and maintenance shops. Tube stock is equipped with contactors to operate over third rail only track without the fourth center rail to allow for ground return for such moves.
bigduke76 in london, the underground is not the same as the tube; the underground's cars won't fit through the much smaller tube line tunnels, and i believe the third-rail shoes are not compatible either. so there are two different networks, like NYC has the IRT and the BMT/IND systems. big duke
In general useage, the terms Underground and Tube are both used for the LUL (London Underground Ltd), former LT (London Transport), system - as distinct from the National Rail (former BR - now Network Rail) suburban lines - part of which are now worked as 'London Overground', as part of the TfL (Transport for London) system.
As stated, the Underground/Tube system can be divided into two groups - the 'Tube' lines - using small (about 12 feet diameter), mainly bored at deep level, tunnels - with trains to suit (about 9 feet 6 inches high) - and the 'Sub-Surface' or Surface lines, which have more 'mainline' sized trains (about 12 feet high) and generally 'cut and cover' shallow tunnels. Both use the same track (including conductor rail) and signalling standards - there are areas of inter-running, with compromise height platforms; and both have substantial open air stretches (on the surface, sometimes on (mainly brick) viaducts), sometimes ex national system lines.
The LU uses 3rd and 4th rail, NR does not use the 4th (centre) rail - but 3rd rail position is standard, again, there are areas of inter-running.
CSSHEGEWISCHBNSFwatcher has obviously never been to Geno's East or Portillo's.
BNSFwatcher has obviously never been to Geno's East or Portillo's.
True. Perhaps he's still eating at Shea Stadium (torn down after the 2008 season)?
in london, the underground is not the same as the tube; the underground's cars won't fit through the much smaller tube line tunnels, and i believe the third-rail shoes are not compatible either. so there are two different networks, like NYC has the IRT and the BMT/IND systems. big duke
Moving from Cahh to trolley represents progress in my book. Possibly more people finishing high school and going to college.
The finest hot dogs are sold by "Sabrett" push-cart vendors on the streets of New York, complete with umbrellas! I'll have mine with onions and sauerkraut! I'm not a fan of Brooklyn's "Nathan's Famous", but do like the ones sold in Shea Stadium. As far as pizza's go, stuff your silly deep-dish. The best in the world are served in the Bronx, "Anchovies, please!". Even the "by-the-slice" stuff in Penn Station is better than anything in Chicago!
In NYC, an "El" was an "El", and the subway was just that. The moniker changed with the topography and exposure to daylight. Ever heard of the "Dyre Avenue Subway"? Negative, on that. The "Lexington Avenue El"? Doubt it.
Before the State purchase of the Boston Elevated Railway, the BER ran almost all transit in Boston, exceptions being the narrow gauge BRB&L, plus the Eastern Mass buses and streetcars that shared some streets and even some streetcar tracks with the BER. even running into the orginal subway from the ramp south of North Station to the loop at Scolley Square and over the Fellsway line to Sullevan Sq. El Station and in from Quincy to the Fields Corner "Tunnel" station.
So, a ditty began "The Elevated runs on the surface, and the surface cars run underground..." Can someone finish it?
The Cambridg - Dorchester line, now the Red Line, was called the Cambridge Dorchester Tunnel, not subway, but Tunnel.
The we had the East Boston Tunnel. Bowdoin-Maverick, now the Bowdoin-Revere Blue Line.
Washington Street was always called the Elevated, except specifically downtown, the Wshington Street Tunnel.
But the Green Line subway was always called The Subway. Generally, though, Bostonians called streetcars/trolley-cars just cars or "cahhs" I took the "caahhh" here. Even when they ran in three-car trains in the Subway. Tem subway car also just not used. Tunnel Caah or Elevated Caah or just plain Caah. Bostonians. still true?
But then as late as 14 years ago, people living near the present B, D, F, N, and Q routes in Brooklyn" would say, "I took the train to the city yesterday," not "I took the subway to Manhattan, yesterday. Reflection on the origin of all these routes as steam railroads connecting to ferries to Manhattan and to horsecar lines to downtown Brooklyn. Even though electrified first as elevated trains reaching Manhattan over the Brooklyn Bridge over a century ago and then gradually converted to subways trains reaching Manhattan over the Manhattan Bridfge and Montague Street Tunnel starting in 1916 and ending in 1940. Brooklyinites: Is this still true?
Trolley car was a misnomer for Manhatten streetcars, since they picked up their current from positive and negative rails on each side of slot, the conduit system. Streetcar was correct. Fans talk of Manhattan trolleys, but real New Yorkers do not.
El and L were both used as abbreviations in New York City, but only L in Chicago from what I remember.
henry6PATH, ronounced "path"? In Philly there is the Lindenwold High Speed Rail LIne, referred to as PATCO and prounounced as the acronym is spelled, too.
Don't forget SEPTA.
As far as equipment goes, there are so many names. For example NJT calls their MUs Arrows and their single level cars Comets. Metro-North calls their single level cars Shoreliners (some of which are identical to NJT Comets), although one series is the Comet Vs (same as NJT). SEPTA calls their MUs Silverliners. PATH's cars are the PA- series.The list goes on and on and on and on and on...
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Phoebe Vet Henry: I've heard the London subway called "the tube".
Henry:
I've heard the London subway called "the tube".
Yes! And how could I forget that plus the Hudson and Manhatten Railorad being called, first, The Tubes and now PATH, ronounced "path"? In Philly there is the Lindenwold High Speed Rail LIne, referred to as PATCO and prounounced as the acronym is spelled, too.
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
Gotcha about the "L" and "el". And likewise in NYC everything is the subway even above ground and on viaducts like the "elevated". Boston has the "el" too. And the pizza is great in both towns!
In Chicago, it's the "L", even when it's underground or in a median strip. An "el" operates in some city on the East Coast that has terrible hot dogs and worse pizza. C&NW suburban trains are "scoots", CB&Q and MILW suburban trains are "dinkies", although these are more railroad slang than terms used by the public.
NJT's Princeton "Dinky" comes to mind; a two car MU from the Corridor at Princeton Jct. to Princeton hailing back to the PRR days. "Scoot" is a term that has been applied to single trains or groups in several areas, the LIRR and DL&W both were so afflicted. The "el" in Chicago and at one time in NYC in reference to elevated rails. In London the subway is the "underground". Also in the Bay Area is the BART, not Bee Ay Ar Tee but Bart as in Simpson, instead of subway or underground. Look at all the names for the RDC cars on different roads from shore to shore and into Canada, too. Dig deeper and you'll find different monickers, nicknames, marketing names, use names, geographical names, insulting names, affectionate names, and acronym pronounciations for just about everything.
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