Laccawanna Cutoff History of Conrail sale to PA and NJ?

[Eltraino4]

  I did some history on this and it seems that the states of PA and NJ paid about 20,000,000 for this line from Scranton PA to NJ from Conrail in 1984. Conrail was still US Gov owned in 1984 so was it not redundent to force the states to pay for track and land the gov already owned?

[gardendance]

I've often felt that way, why does one hand of government bite the other hand of government by charging them for something. However what we lump together as gummint is actually separate fiefdoms, and in this case you're talking about the federal government and the separate and sovereign governments of the Commonwealth of Pa and the State of New Jersey.

There are those who would argue that federal money, gleaned from all taxpayers in the US, should not necessarily go to the benefit of only PA and NJ residents. This argument can trickle on for a while, PA general funds should not go to the benefit of only northeast PA residents, or worse yet, New York residents who only want to visit PA, or northeast PA residents who only want to work in New York.

Among the more ridiculous example of that way of thinking:

route 11 light rail trolley, Philadelphia, Pa to the neighboring borough of Darby, was undergoing track reconstruction. A Darby politician complained because all of the proposed track work was being done inside the city of Philla. He apparently did not realize that improved track in the city would improve the ride for entire line.

Delaware River Port Authority, operator of the Port Authority Transist Corp train from NJ to Phila had been paying $1 per year for the privilege of running in the Philadelphia owned Locust St subway. Sometime in the last 10 years some city council person argued, succesfully I think, to raise that fee, or evict PATCO. It's hard for me to imagine if PATCO had refused and gotten evicted who else would conceivably have paid the raised fee, or who would have used the subway in such a way as to provide the city with benefit similar to that they were getting from the PATCO operation.

Another argument for charging one branch of government regular market fees for goods and services to another branch is actually an argument for promoting financial efficiency. If the fed had given PA and NJ the right of way, or had only charged a dramatically discounted fee then that could entice the 2 states to make less than optimal decisions.

At any rate, since NJ and PA had paid the fee, the right of way should then be unquestionably under their control, so the fed has less ability to dictate how those sovereign governments must use, or decline from using, the property. Of course that doesn't necessarily mean the fed won't still try butting in, I believe the term in that case is unfunded mandate.

[Phoebe Vet]

Did you mean "Lackawanna"?

 

[Eltraino4]

It would seem that the Lacawanna Cutoff woudl better serve as a limited Access HOV lane highway to Scranton then a Railroad. Scranton and Laccawanna County is too spread out now and buses could pick people up in the many hill towns and feed into the HOV Lanes. The Laccawanna Cutoff is the only direct route into NJNY via highway or other

[Phoebe Vet]

Pennsylvania Senator Arlen Specter in this decade has advocated the restoration of passenger rail service between Scranton and Hoboken, and has secured federal funding for initial steps toward that restoration.

In late July, 2006, New Jersey Transit informed interested parties that the final environmental review has been submitted to the Federal Transit Administration for approval and review.Assuming that the project is approved soon, funding for the project's construction can be expected to appear in the following fiscal year's budget.

In addition, the Lackawanna County and Monroe County Railroad Authorities merged in 2006 to form the Pennsylvania Northeast Regional Rail Authority, to help speed-up resumption of passenger service on the Pennsylvania side of the Lackawanna Cutoff project.

[Eltraino4]

  Seeing that transit money in PA comes from State Funds unlike many other places that have local tax support....Who pays for opperation of the trains once the line is built?

[henry6]

Wrong facts here.  CONRAIL closed, abandoned, and sold the Cut Off in 1984 to a private individual.  It was done quickly, before anyone really knew what had happened.  NJT, PA and the Federal government had to buy it from the private owner in order to be able to do this project.  So it was not a redundency for the governments to buy from CR.  It was a very unsettling maneuver by CR to get it sold as quickly and quietly as it did.

[gardendance]

Did you mean "Lackawanna"?

 

I believe the correct term is Lack of Wampum

[TomDiehl]

Wrong facts here.  CONRAIL closed, abandoned, and sold the Cut Off in 1984 to a private individual.  It was done quickly, before anyone really knew what had happened.  NJT, PA and the Federal government had to buy it from the private owner in order to be able to do this project.  So it was not a redundency for the governments to buy from CR.  It was a very unsettling maneuver by CR to get it sold as quickly and quietly as it did.

To add to Henry's comments, the right of way in New Jersey was offered for sale at a high price. Conrail saw this as an alternate (competitive, if bought by a short line or regional) route between Binghamton and New York City, since they already owned the old New York Central track, and it had more on-line business.

The right of way in New Jersey not bought up or already owned by New Jersey Transit was completely stripped of rail and the property sold as stated above. The right of way in Pennsylvania had one track (of the double track) removed and much is already owned by county Rail Authorities and operated by contractors. The Delaware River bridge at Portland, PA/Columbia, NJ is still there, but needs some work to be brought up to standards, as well as some of the bridges in New Jersey. The gap is about 28 miles between Columbia and Port Morris Junction, NJ

Recently, NJT moved toward the actual construction of a 7.3 mile stretch from Port Morris Junction to Andover. A step closer to the PA border.

Someone else mentioned using the cutoff for a superhighway/HOV lane between Scranton and NYC. Since most of the route is still active, this isn't in the cards. Besides, we already have Interstate 380 and 80 filling this bill, with HOV lanes as you get close to New York.

[Eltraino4]

  It seems that Conrail did a number of things that were not in best public intrest while under Goverment Control such as-

1. Abandoning Small Buisness Sidings

2. Running Commuter Trains into the ground were SEPTA and Metro North had to step in and take over the service

3. Abandoning the Erie west of Youngstown OH.

4. Privatising Conrail so that CSX who wined and dined high ranking federal offcials at the Greenbrier for years would eventualy own half of Conrail.

Now when Railpax and Conrail was formed was the original idea to make it healthy enough to spin it off on its own?

[Eltraino4]

 and let us not forget that CSX CEO John Snow became the Secatary of the Treasury.....No Doubt that that wining and dining at the Greenbriar paid off when some drunk Senator anounced at the Cocktail party to the Crowd that John Snow will be Secatary of the Tresurer

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

  It seems that Conrail did a number of things that were not in best public intrest while under Goverment Control such as-

1. Abandoning Small Buisness Sidings

2. Running Commuter Trains into the ground were SEPTA and Metro North had to step in and take over the service

3. Abandoning the Erie west of Youngstown OH.

4. Privatising Conrail so that CSX who wined and dined high ranking federal offcials at the Greenbrier for years would eventualy own half of Conrail.

Now when Railpax and Conrail was formed was the original idea to make it healthy enough to spin it off on its own?

In response:

1. A smaller business that ships by rail only occasionally would be better served by trucks.

2. The services in question were already subsidized by the transit agencies mentioned.  The statute that created Conrail mandated that the suburban operations were to be turned over to the agencies for direct operation.

3. The EL main line mentioned was spun off to a regional operator (Erie Westen, IIRC) who couldn't make a go of it.

4. Conrail was privatized in response to an attempt by NS to buy out the whole operation.

5. Amtrak and Conrail were established at different times.  Conrail did become financially healthy because it was allowed to discontinue unprofitable operations.

[Tom Tom]

  Erie Western could not make a go of it because the overhead bridge traffic that normally went over it was diverted to ajantent B&O and Conrail Mainlines. Nowadays Shortlines deals dont go through unless there is a gaurentee of the Class Ones sending still sending traffic over its route.

[henry6]

The other thing to remember about the former Erie, Erie Lackawanna, Lehigh Valley, and DL&W, is that their main lines were dismembered and decimated so that there was no continuous line to compete with the New York Central and Pennsyvlania railroads, er, the Water Level Route and the Central Pennsylvania Route.  Along with the dismantling of the respective railroads there was an accomanying decaying of business and industry along those lines.  I knoow and chicken and egg contest is coming, but I feel that by taking away the main line, through line railroad service in these cities and towns made if difficult for them to keep exisiting businesses and manufacturing plants while also making it more difficult to attract new ones.  To this matter I cannot respect PC nor the PC people who ran CR.

[daveklepper]

Reply to Eltraino.   Superhighway on the Cutoff?  So what are those drivers supposed to do when they get near their destination (employment and business spots in NYC and the Hudson West Shore) and there are no parking spots left and congestion?  Rail is the answer because it can provide a one-seat ride and get people out of their cars.   And the capacity for the additonal trains into Manhattan will be there when the additional tunnels are completed.   (There is wasted capacity right now, usable by running all PATH Journal Square trains to Newark (providing uptown as well as downtown service) with the necessary signal, minor track, and operation changes required   -  like having jocky motorman at Newark and letting the road motorman and conductor walk directly form the inbound to outbound trains while the jockies run out to the relay tracks west of the station and run inbound  -- and there are other ways, as well.)

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

  Erie Western could not make a go of it because the overhead bridge traffic that normally went over it was diverted to ajantent B&O and Conrail Mainlines. Nowadays Shortlines deals dont go through unless there is a gaurentee of the Class Ones sending still sending traffic over its route.

Of course the overhead traffic from Conrail went elsewhere.  What railroad would intentionally shorthaul itself?  This was all prior to Staggers and Conrail would have lost revenue by routing over Erie Western instead of its own lines.   

[henry6]

Of course the overhead traffic from Conrail went elsewhere.  What railroad would intentionally shorthaul itself?  This was all prior to Staggers and Conrail would have lost revenue by routing over Erie Western instead of its own lines.   

 

But the problem isn't only that the overhead traffic left, it is that some left railroads entirely while other just dissapeard because of a lack of service (what may have been a pick up or set out here probably was overhead someplace else!).

[JT22CW]

Wrong facts here.  CONRAIL closed, abandoned, and sold the Cut Off in 1984 to a private individual.  It was done quickly, before anyone really knew what had happened.  NJT, PA and the Federal government had to buy it from the private owner in order to be able to do this project.  So it was not a redundency for the governments to buy from CR.  It was a very unsettling maneuver by CR to get it sold as quickly and quietly as it did.

To add to Henry's comments, the right of way in New Jersey was offered for sale at a high price. Conrail saw this as an alternate (competitive, if bought by a short line or regional) route between Binghamton and New York City, since they already owned the old New York Central track, and it had more on-line business.

The ROW was not offered for a high price to Jerry Turco.  IIRC, he got it for a mere $1 million.  NJT (not the federal government, who were not involved IINM) bought it from Turco for approximately $21 million.

Conrail's excuses for abandonment were shallow and meaningless.  They keep the Southern Tier Route open despite the lack of business there, for example.  Also, publicly admitting to squashing competition should have opened them up to a massive antitrust lawsuit, not to mention that holding such a purported view of the Cutoff actually highlighted its value as a transportation artery rather than denigrated it.

The right of way in New Jersey not bought up or already owned by New Jersey Transit was completely stripped of rail and the property sold as stated above. The right of way in Pennsylvania had one track (of the double track) removed and much is already owned by county Rail Authorities and operated by contractors. The Delaware River bridge at Portland, PA/Columbia, NJ is still there, but needs some work to be brought up to standards, as well as some of the bridges in New Jersey. The gap is about 28 miles between Columbia and Port Morris Junction, NJ.

NJT never "already owned" any of the Cutoff between Port Morris (already part of the Boonton Line to Netcong, per the DL&W "Old Road") and the PA border.

The Cutoff bridge across the Delaware goes from Columbia NJ to Slateford PA, not Portland.  Slateford Road's northern exit onto PA 611 has been built on top of the Cutoff ROW leading to Slateford Junction, and would have to be rebuilt into a road bridge.

Recently, NJT moved toward the actual construction of a 7.3 mile stretch from Port Morris Junction to Andover. A step closer to the PA border

That's a token offering that really serves nobody and nothing.  It's a quarter of the actual Cutoff, but a mere 8.3 percent of the route to Scranton from Port Morris.

Someone else mentioned using the cutoff for a superhighway/HOV lane between Scranton and NYC. Since most of the route is still active, this isn't in the cards. Besides, we already have Interstate 380 and 80 filling this bill, with HOV lanes as you get close to New York

Assuming that the DL&W main line through the Poconos were abandoned (which is not part of the Cutoff, FTR, and is not abandoned of course), that would be rather absurd, given the two-track width as well as the many grade crossings, especially through Tobyhanna, Pocono Summit, Paradise Township, Henryville, East Stroudsburg and Delaware Water Gap.   Not to mention that the ROW has often fallen victim to flooding from Brodhead Creek and the Delaware River. 

East of the Delaware, it wouldn't serve motorists very well to have an isolated two-lane highway lead into NJ Transit's Port Morris Yard.

[HolyToledo!]

   Here we go again "Wink Wink"...... As myself and Eltraino have mentioned earlyer in a on line debate on these forums on Common Carrier Obligation and Eminate Domain the right of a railroad to sell a right of way for use other then railroad purposes is questionable. Portions Right of Ways have been sold to real estate developers and other non railroad developers for quite some time.-- In Buffalo NFTA is selling RR Right of Way that was railbanked from Conrail to strip mall developers because they have given up on any hope of ever that the Subway will ever be expanded.  Buffalo NFTA claims that the right of way is still there but does a zig-zag around the Home Depots and Targets Stores so yes legaly its still there but not usable for transit purposes.

Conrail Violated the ICC (Now STB) railbanking laws that relate to rail-trail creation and railbanking that say railroads Right of way must first be offered for sale to 1. Another railroad who will operate the railroad.2 County then State then Municipal Goverments..3 Another Common Carreir Utility (This is what ends up happening the most as Power Line Companys and gas Companys like usiing RR rights of ways for transmision) 4. Whoever was the landowner and there desendents in the deeds when the easement or land was condemed in the 1800s or as late as the 1920s in some cases.

[TomDiehl]

Wrong facts here.  CONRAIL closed, abandoned, and sold the Cut Off in 1984 to a private individual.  It was done quickly, before anyone really knew what had happened.  NJT, PA and the Federal government had to buy it from the private owner in order to be able to do this project.  So it was not a redundency for the governments to buy from CR.  It was a very unsettling maneuver by CR to get it sold as quickly and quietly as it did.

To add to Henry's comments, the right of way in New Jersey was offered for sale at a high price. Conrail saw this as an alternate (competitive, if bought by a short line or regional) route between Binghamton and New York City, since they already owned the old New York Central track, and it had more on-line business.

The ROW was not offered for a high price to Jerry Turco.  IIRC, he got it for a mere $1 million.  NJT (not the federal government, who were not involved IINM) bought it from Turco for approximately $21 million.

I never stated what price the Land was offered for after the offer to sell as an in-tact railroad right-of-way.It was sold off to break a vital link on a possibly competitive route to Conrail's former New York Central route. Selling an in-tact route between Binghamton and New York City could easily have given the new owner a way to take through traffic from Conrail between those two cities. It was a sale more to prevent competition. No argument that Turco made out like a bandit on the deal. Both his and Conrail's decisions on this section of right-of-way were strictly business.

[TomDiehl]

The Cutoff bridge across the Delaware goes from Columbia NJ to Slateford PA, not Portland.  Slateford Road's northern exit onto PA 611 has been built on top of the Cutoff ROW leading to Slateford Junction, and would have to be rebuilt into a road bridge.

Slateford Junction is about a mile north of Portland and anyone living in that area has a Portland mailing address. There may have been a town of Slateford at one time, but the area is Upper Mount Bethel Township today.

[TomDiehl]

[quote user="TomDiehl] Recently, NJT moved toward the actual construction of a 7.3 mile stretch from Port Morris Junction to Andover. A step closer to the PA border

That's a token offering that really serves nobody and nothing.  It's a quarter of the actual Cutoff, but a mere 8.3 percent of the route to Scranton from Port Morris.

"Token offering?" How about "what New Jersey DOT can afford to do without federal help." If they wait for the Fed's to come up with the money, there's no telling when the severed rail line will be rejoined. This way, an affordable step is being taken in the right direction.

[henry6]

I think there is more a "P.R." angle to the Andover extension than anything right now.  The whole project has been slowed down by awaiting the evnormental study ok which has meant a withholidng of monies from the Feds which has made proponents antsy and opponents more anti!  It shows those against this project that NJT is committed to making it happen, they believe it is needed to help North Jersey.  It could be (mis)read as a "token" offering in some respects, but, they've ordered the locomotives, they know PA is honest and dedicated to the project, as so are the Congressional delegations from both states.  So, if they have the money at hand, if they have the manpower at hand, if they have the materials at hand, why not?  And since it is into Byram Twp. where there has been opposition to the project and opposition to doing anything to make US Route 206 more capable of handling more traffic (to feed into the already over croweded I80), a train from the (new) Andover station might help win over some of the NIMBY's.

[JT22CW]

Slateford Junction is about a mile north of Portland and anyone living in that area has a Portland mailing address. There may have been a town of Slateford at one time, but the area is Upper Mount Bethel Township today

No, Slateford is definitely still there and distinct from Portland. If you want to argue postal names, then homes on Slateford Road are listed with Mount Bethel addresses, mostly, but never, ever Portland.

Recently, NJT moved toward the actual construction of a 7.3 mile stretch from Port Morris Junction to Andover. A step closer to the PA border

That's a token offering that really serves nobody and nothing. It's a quarter of the actual Cutoff, but a mere 8.3 percent of the route to Scranton from Port Morris.

"Token offering?" How about "what New Jersey DOT can afford to do without federal help." If they wait for the Feds to come up with the money, there's no telling when the severed rail line will be rejoined. This way, an affordable step is being taken in the right direction

How about, no. If NJT finds it "affordable" to buy extravagances like 326 multilevel cars, 27 ALP46As (with no new electrification to run them on, and designed for 125 mph while NJT's cars are certified for no faster than 100 mph) and 26 "dual-powered" locomotives at a whopping $12.5 million per unit, never mind light rail projects whose costs go into the billions (yes, billions)…then for a project whose costs were estimated at $551 million in 2006 dollars (that's $602 million in 2008 dollars), NJT doesn't have to wait for federal funding; they could influence the state of PA to put up more money towards the project. Or if they really wanted to proceed, the project could easily be fast-tracked with all the money they could put towards it. No, they're withholding money deliberately.

I think there is more a "P.R." angle to the Andover extension than anything right now. The whole project has been slowed down by awaiting the evnormental study ok which has meant a withholidng of monies from the Feds which has made proponents antsy and opponents more anti! It shows those against this project that NJT is committed to making it happen, they believe it is needed to help North Jersey. It could be (mis)read as a "token" offering in some respects, but, they've ordered the locomotives, they know PA is honest and dedicated to the project, as so are the Congressional delegations from both states. So, if they have the money at hand, if they have the manpower at hand, if they have the materials at hand, why not? And since it is into Byram Twp. where there has been opposition to the project and opposition to doing anything to make US Route 206 more capable of handling more traffic (to feed into the already over croweded I80), a train from the (new) Andover station might help win over some of the NIMBYs

Sounds like you're the one misreading things, with all due respect. All it is is a token offering, and a useless one at that. They already own the entire Cutoff to the PA border. They're keeping not only PA but the federal government waiting by not putting up their share of TEA-21 funds and not drawing up and committing to an operating agreement. This shows, rather, that NJT in its current form are not at all committed to the Cutoff.

The EIS has nothing to do with holding money back, at all - otherwise, they would have waited for the EIS for THE Tunnel before putting any money towards it (which they haven't).

What locomotives have NJT bought specifically for the Cutoff? They're only going to use PL42ACs and whatever older non-dual-powered motive power they have, because the trains are going to Hoboken and not New York City.

Train service never wins over NIMBYs. NIMBYs have to be fought in order to gain passenger rail service.

[henry6]

[Sounds like you're the one misreading things, with all due respect. All it is is a token offering, and a useless one at that. They already own the entire Cutoff to the PA border. They're keeping not only PA but the federal government waiting by not putting up their share of TEA-21 funds and not drawing up and committing to an operating agreement. This shows, rather, that NJT in its current form are not at all committed to the Cutoff.

The EIS has nothing to do with holding money back, at all - otherwise, they would have waited for the EIS for THE Tunnel before putting any money towards it (which they haven't).

What locomotives have NJT bought specifically for the Cutoff? They're only going to use PL42ACs and whatever older non-dual-powered motive power they have, because the trains are going to Hoboken and not New York City.

Train service never wins over NIMBYs. NIMBYs have to be fought in order to gain passenger rail service.

1) Not a token step but a PR step to show that the project is real and is continuing; money availble, materials available, go for it.  Also, NJT now owns the Cut Off to the east end of the Slateford Bridge. From their west it is owned or leased by the PA authorities.

2) No, the Environmental Impact study has to be officially approved so that money can be released for the next step.  That is what is happening THE Tunnel project notwithstanding.

3) No locomotives have been purchased exclusevly for the Cut Off.  Yes, on paper so far, service in the project is Scranton to Hoboken based on market studies...(designed to get get people form west of the Dewlare to work in northern New Jersey as much as into NYC, in fact a major number of passengers are believed not to be going all the way to NY Penn; if so, change trains at Dover, Summit, or Newark).  That being said, NJT has ordered dual powerd locomotives with Andover service having been mentioned as a possible service, but so has other diesel line services including High Bridge-Raritan and proposedl West Trenton service.  Scranton service?  Nothing is cast in stone for anything in this project, plans are still being formulated step by step.  (Incidently, I speak from being involved in the project and not just as a railfan bystander.)

 4) Train service is winning against NIMBY's. Since NJ is the unofficial NIMBY State, the number or rail services that have been added, expanded, or otherwise exist, is proof that trains win over NIMBY's.

 

[TomDiehl]

Slateford Junction is about a mile north of Portland and anyone living in that area has a Portland mailing address. There may have been a town of Slateford at one time, but the area is Upper Mount Bethel Township today

No, Slateford is definitely still there and distinct from Portland. If you want to argue postal names, then homes on Slateford Road are listed with Mount Bethel addresses, mostly, but never, ever Portland

Well, I guess I'll have to tell my friends that live along the river just south of that bridge that they need to change their address because you obviously know more than the US Post Office.

[Phoebe Vet]

Your mailing address is determined by which post office delivers your mail, not by your geographic location.

I know some people who live in PA but have a NY mailing address.

[daveklepper]

Light rail did win over the NIMBY's in the Denver and Salt Lake City areas.   That is a fact.

[JT22CW]

Well, I guess I'll have to tell my friends that live along the river just south of that bridge that they need to change their address because you obviously know more than the US Post Office

Your mailing address is determined by which post office delivers your mail, not by your geographic location

Well, since the original "argument" has to do whether or not Slateford "still exists" (and it does), then that's really not relevant. (Look up "Warnertown, PA" for a town that truly does not exist anymore in a physical sense, save on maps; Slateford has people living there, no matter what you have to put as your mailing address; and technically, you can put a zip code on the envelope instead of any town name.)

Not a token step but a PR step to show that the project is real and is continuing; money availble, materials available, go for it. Also, NJT now owns the Cut Off to the east end of the Slateford Bridge. From their west it is owned or leased by the PA authorities

You haven't proven that it's not a token step by saying this. Doing this does not show commitment whatsoever. To say that it does is to also imply that NJT is going to continue with projects such as the Newark-Elizabeth Rail Link all because they built MOS-1 (connecting Newark Penn with Newark Broad/former DL&W), but the bare fact is that they do not intend to proceed with that project, despite the fact that they had already apportioned funds for the extension to EWR (they already deemed the project "complete" long before Warrington had to quit due to health reasons).

No, the Environmental Impact study has to be officially approved so that money can be released for the next step. That is what is happening THE Tunnel project notwithstanding

False. NJ can put funds towards the Cutoff at any time, just like they have done with THE Tunnel. The EIS is necessary for federal funds only.

No locomotives have been purchased exclusevly for the Cut Off. Yes, on paper so far, service in the project is Scranton to Hoboken based on market studies...(designed to get get people form west of the Dewlare to work in northern New Jersey as much as into NYC, in fact a major number of passengers are believed not to be going all the way to NY Penn; if so, change trains at Dover, Summit, or Newark). That being said, NJT has ordered dual powerd locomotives with Andover service having been mentioned as a possible service, but so has other diesel line services including High Bridge-Raritan and proposed West Trenton service. Scranton service? Nothing is cast in stone for anything in this project, plans are still being formulated step by step. (Incidently, I speak from being involved in the project and not just as a railfan bystander.)

I understand that; but remember that "market studies" are as meaningful as what the Magic 8-Ball says. NJT's engaging in frivolous and outright foolish rolling stock and motive power purchases seemingly (more than just that) to avoid focusing on what should be their primary purpose, especially during the time of highest gas prices (when they started taking trains away), i.e. running more trains and expanding the commuter rail network in earnest.

Train service is winning against NIMBY's. Since NJ is the unofficial NIMBY State, the number or rail services that have been added, expanded, or otherwise exist, is proof that trains win over NIMBY's

No, it's not proof of same. Compare what's been added with what's been taken away. The pendulum is still on the side of services removed (especially on the Raritan Valley and Morristown Lines recently). If NIMBYs were no factor, we'd still have trains running on the Old Erie Main in Orange County NY, between Hoboken and Port Jervis. The bare minimum of new services have been through areas where NIMBYism is less of a factor (and considering Pennsauken in NJ, note the locations of its River Line stations, on the periphery of town).

Light rail did win over the NIMBY's in the Denver and Salt Lake City areas. That is a fact

With all due respect, are you sure that's a fact? What NIMBYism opposed those projects? How strong of a factor were they? and do they use the service now?

Let's restore LIRR service on the former Rockaway Beach line through Ozone Park, then. We shall see if it wins over NIMBYs, or if it will garner a bad reaction.

[gardendance]

The bare minimum of new services have been through areas where NIMBYism is less of a factor (and considering Pennsauken in NJ, note the locations of its River Line stations, on the periphery of town).

One could look at that as NIMYism, for example if they had placed the Rt 73-Pennsauken station closer to people's houses those people could complain about outsiders driving down their 25 mile per hour speed limit local street to get to the parking lot. But by the same token Moorestown and Cinnaminson drivers, who now get off of 50mph Rt 73 and only have about half a mile to go on 40mph River Road, with no traffic lights, to get to the current station, could have complained about being forced to drive those 25 mph streets to get to whatever other location you're thinking would have been more appropriate. I don't see any earthshakingly better spots for a station on the railroad right of way.

As for the station at the other end of Pennsauken, 36th ST, that's right at the spot where Conrail's Pavonia yard ends, so any further south into Camden would make it difficult for residents on the west side to get access across Pavonia yard. It's also where River Rd crosses the right of way, so that helps access.

North of 36th St there are no residences at all on the river, west, side of the tracks except for the 4 blocks by 2 blocks between the Delaire Railroad and Betsy Ross highway bridges, and looks like only 4 or 5 medium sized industries. I think more bus service on River Rd feeding Palmyra, Rt 73-Pennsauken, 36th St and points beyond (existing bus route 419) would do a better job than adding another train station, NIMBY's or no NIMBY's.