Samantha:
Absolutely right: When I was at EAL (Eastern air lines) one year we had 15? road fatalities of crew members going or coming to an airport. Saturday nights coming from the airport were the worst and I was in three limo accidents furing my time there. Everyone always said hang on hang on when we saw a crash coming.
Yes, Gardendance I remember that movie. Good one!
Takes place on a New York subway train where a couple of thugs get onboard and terrorize the passengers in that subway car for a long time, not permitting any to get off. Just watching can make one's blood pressure rise quickly. I like the ending, which I won't give away in case some of you decide to look for it in video stores or online.
Ironically the main "thug" character was played by Tony Monsante, who winded up starring in his own 1970s Beretta style cop show, "Toma".
"I like my Pullman Standards & Budds in Stainless Steel flavors, thank you!"
Samantha wrote: Most of the serious incidents have occurred at the stations. However, whether a passenger is assaulted on a transit vehicle or at the station probably makes little difference to him. An assault is an assault.
Most of the serious incidents have occurred at the stations. However, whether a passenger is assaulted on a transit vehicle or at the station probably makes little difference to him. An assault is an assault.
Chances are you will have more incidents at stations rather than on board simply because the perpetrator, like all good burgulars, won't do anything without an escape route. For good or bad, you and your assailant are stuch with each other until the train gets to the station. More opportunity for you to get the upper hand, or remember description, if the assailant happens to time things poorly and start beating you up just after the doors close as opposed to just before they open.
When I was a kid I twice got sucker punched on transit. Once was on a bus, another kid was hassling me, I moved to another seat. Unfortunately I picked the one just in front of the center door, he hit me from behind as he exited. The other incident was on a subway train, I was about 3 seats from the door, it was a complete sucker punch, another youth hit me on his way to the open door. I like to think he would not have done it to an adult, or woman, etc...
By the way has everybody seen a wonderfully unsettling movie "The Incident" with Martin Sheen? http://www.amazon.ca/Incident-Larry-Peerce/dp/6301551990.
Patrick Boylan
Free yacht rides, 27' sailboat, zip code 19114 Delaware River, get great Delair bridge photos from the river. Send me a private message
My comment here is perception. NY was able to get a handle on crime on transit mostly by
1.getting more officers on the system.
2. going after some of the more minor offenses. ie spitting in public, eating / drinking on trains, smoking, catching graffitti artists/ taggers. etc. It came at a political cost "why u hassling me"
If you want to tackle serious crimes(assaults, muggings, robbery) put a bunch of camera's out there. Also know where crimes are happening and keep officers there. Also make sure your street officers have access to the tapes of crimes happening. Generally bad guys don't think they're going to get caught. And when they do you may not get them for the worst things they did but because they did something stupid, like spitting in public & an officer remembered the general face or look of a perp and investigated when the bad guy did something else and found out who they were.
Rgds IGN
Thanks, Samantha, Gardencance.
I was basically thinking "out loud" on on the keyboard. I spent my childhood in NYC during the 60s and early 70s. We had SERIOUS crime problems on our bus and subway transit system then but always felt good knowing that the conductor was onboard (some of those conductors didn't play around and weren't afraid to stand up to thugs). We also had transit cops riding the trains as well (although not on every single train, they were very visible throughout the system). Of course, we didn't have the security technology back then that we do today.
Antonio
Red line trains usually consist of three articulated units; Blue Line trains usually consist of two articulated units. They are operated by one driver.
I was a daily rider of the DART light rail lines when I lived in Dallas. I never saw a transit cop on the train, although I observed them frequently at the stations. By the same token, although I witnessed a lot of rude and disturbing behavior, I never witnessed any serious crime. For the most part I only rode the trains or bus to and from work or on occasion the TRE to Fort Worth for a Saturday lunch.
DART opted for light rail vehicles that have a cab at both ends. Accordingly, it is impossible to move from one until to another while the train is in motion. Thus, even if there is a police presence on the train, a bad guy can get on one of the cars without the police officer, ruff up a passenger, and get off before anyone is the wiser, unless the victim can get to one of the call boxes in each car.
I don't recall any murders on DART's light rail trains. There have been assaults on the trains or at the stations, usually late at night, that have resulted in serious injury. Most of the serious incidents have occurred at the stations. However, whether a passenger is assaulted on a transit vehicle or at the station probably makes little difference to him. An assault is an assault.
Dallas has had the highest per capita crime rate of any city in the United States with a population of more than one million people for the last eight years running. The violent crime rate in 2007 was 1.07 per cent, whilst the property crime rate was 6.78 per cent. Miami had a violent crime rate of 1.49 per cent, which was higher than the Dallas rate, but a property crime rate of 5.16 per cent, which is lower than the rate for Dallas. The population of Dallas during 2007, according to the FBI Crime Statistics Report, was approximately 1,239,000 whilst the population of Miami was approximately 409,000.
I don't know a single middle or upper class person in Dallas who would ride DART at night unless they were going to one of the special events at the American Airlines Center. And then they would only go if someone else was going with them.
AntonioFP45 wrote: Just wanted to comment that I'm a bit surprised that a 3 car train, even if an LRT, as only one transit employeed aboard.....who's busy operating the train. Seems that a conductor or security officer on each train during most hours would make sense. Of course I'm assuming that's not currently the case because that is deemed too expensive for DART's budget.
Just wanted to comment that I'm a bit surprised that a 3 car train, even if an LRT, as only one transit employeed aboard.....who's busy operating the train. Seems that a conductor or security officer on each train during most hours would make sense. Of course I'm assuming that's not currently the case because that is deemed too expensive for DART's budget.
Just because everybody else does it doesn't make it right. Having said that, please let me mention everybody else.
PATCO Philadelphia-Lindenwold has operated one man crews with up to 6 car trains since 1969.
I assume BART San Francisco has used 1 man crews since inception
WMATA Washington DC 8 cars?, MARTA Atlanta, San Diego 3 cars? LRT, Los Angeles, the list of one man operations goes on.
You mention Miami Tri-Rail, that's the Palm Beach-Miami commuter railroad isn't it? Do they have traditonal commuter railroad crews, engineer running the train, old fashioned ticket collecting conductors? I think Metro-Dade is the Miami heavy rail elevated train, they have 1 man operation, in fact they ordered their cars from Budd the same time as Baltimore. And Miami's downtown people mover has no man operation.
These organizations have some sort of security system which involves guards or cops. I am willing to guess that DC, Atlanta or Los Angeles have similar or worse crime rates compared to Dallas. Although I haven't heard anybody mention Miami having overwhelming passenger loads, I do have to think Miami's crime problem is much worse than Dallas. And PATCO has 3 stations in Camden, NJ, which is no bastion of safety.
And I bet Atlanta, Miami and Los Angeles have similar car cultures compared to Dallas.
The light rail installations also have random ticket inspectors. The heavy rail installations, except for PATCO and Miami's downtown people mover, which don't regularly have any personel at the station, have some sort of manned cashier or information kiosk before the turnstiles where passengers must present fare to enter the platform.
Any comments on the crime prevention effectiveness of train or ticket crews vs uniformed vs plain clothes or undercover security or police? Or cameras, hidden or open?
Hi Samantha,
Does make me wonder though (and hopefully it never happens) that if a tragic crime occurs on one of these trains, such as a severe assualt/battery or even a murder, if suddenly the funds would materialize to have security guards ride the trains as they do on Miami's Tri-Rail commuter system.
Rightly or mistakenly, my thoughts
Well, it's not just Dallas.
Here's an excerpt from a Canadian newspaper (published today) on SkyTrain safety that clearly supports the central argument of this thread:
"The issue in mind is that whether in Paris, London or San Francisco, you can never eliminate random acts of violence. We're trying to make SkyTrain as safe as possible."
He said SkyTrain has hired more transit police officers, is installing new digital security cameras and turnstiles and is working closely with local police to fight crime in and around stations.
Nevertheless, a recently released survey commissioned by TransLink shows only 32 per cent of respondents rate safety in SkyTrain stations as good to excellent. Fifty-two per cent called for more SkyTrain attendants on duty, while 40 per cent said more transit police should be hired.
Respondents who don't use SkyTrain believe the danger is higher than those who do and many said they avoid the trains because they wouldn't feel safe.
Falcon said SkyTrain, with 80 million trips per year, is very safe, but a few "isolated incidents" create the perception of danger.
NDP finance critic Bruce Ralston said public confidence in the system must be improved if TransLink expects to succeed in boosting ridership.
"At a time when we're being hectored and lectured about not using our cars, they've got to make it safe and comfortable for people. If a station becomes a hot spot for crime and they're not doing anything about it, that's wrong."
http://www.canada.com/surreynow/news/story.html?id=e9dfdd78-7731-4d08-a525-3d3944e4d7f8
California has tougher laws regarding firearms than Texas. Here to it is against the law to carry firearms on public transit but with a concealed weapon permit you are permitted to carry pepper spray and or tazers. California has had several suits regarding the concealed weapons permits and the courts in all instances have upheld there use.
Both can be very effective on public transit. I will check into Texas law on concealed weapons permits and see what is permitted and where it can be carried.
Al - in - Stockton
passengerfan wrote: For those that are concerned for there safety in Public transit I would suggest taking a recognized firearm safety course and applying for a concealed weapon permit. They are not easy to get and if you have ever been in court for anything relating to domestic violence or similar you can forget applying. After applying it takes about two months for the application to be approved and you better have a good reason why you need one. I recently received my firearm safety instructor license and at the first class I am an instructor in was amazed at the number of the so called weaker sex enrolled. The second class will be this Tuesday and many will be firing a weapon for the first time. Other instructors have advised me these classes are continuing a steady increase in enrollment and that in the last year alone they have doubled, and there is a waiting list for every class. The drop out rate is near zero and successful completion is over 90%. There are five licensed instructors conducting each class and the class size is limited to 25 per class. At the present time there are three classes per week and the course length is seven weeks with each class of two hours per week. There is probably four hours per week of home reading required in order to pass the course. At the final class there is a written test of 120 questions and firing test that must score 70% to pass. Al - in - Stockton
For those that are concerned for there safety in Public transit I would suggest taking a recognized firearm safety course and applying for a concealed weapon permit. They are not easy to get and if you have ever been in court for anything relating to domestic violence or similar you can forget applying. After applying it takes about two months for the application to be approved and you better have a good reason why you need one.
I recently received my firearm safety instructor license and at the first class I am an instructor in was amazed at the number of the so called weaker sex enrolled. The second class will be this Tuesday and many will be firing a weapon for the first time. Other instructors have advised me these classes are continuing a steady increase in enrollment and that in the last year alone they have doubled, and there is a waiting list for every class. The drop out rate is near zero and successful completion is over 90%. There are five licensed instructors conducting each class and the class size is limited to 25 per class. At the present time there are three classes per week and the course length is seven weeks with each class of two hours per week. There is probably four hours per week of home reading required in order to pass the course. At the final class there is a written test of 120 questions and firing test that must score 70% to pass.
It is against the law to carry any sort of firearm on a public transit vehicle of any kind in Texas.
I was reporting the crime statistics for Dallas, which are probably different than the national trends. Presumably, DART is not incurring millions of additional dollars for transit police protection because its vehicles and facilities are or are perceived to be safe zones.
The number of riders on DART is up 8 to 11 per cent. Many if not most of the new riders are middle to lower middle class commuters who had been driving but believe they can no longer afford it. If past behavior and trends are indicators of the future, the number of riders will decline if the price of gasoline decreases.
As a former commercial pilot and flight instructor, I used to tell my friends that the most dangerous part of my job was the drive to the airport. And the numbers support this assertion. The chances of being killed or injured seriously while driving are greater than the chances of being killed or injured seriously on public transit.
But the crime that happens on transit is a different animal. Muggings, robberies, verbal assaults (use of four letter words), teen rampages, panhandlers, etc. are the biggest threat on DART's trains. For most people they are just as threatening as being killed or injured seriously.
Again, it comes back to perception. It does not matter how safe DART management thinks it vehicles and facilities are. Or what the statistics say! What matters is what the people think. And if one reads the comments that are submitted from time to time on DART surveys, as I have, it is clear that many people believe that crime and public transit in Dallas go hand in hand.
Whilst it is true that driving is more dangerous, at least in terms of serious injury or fatalities, than riding public transit, it is equally true that driving is considerably safer today than it was in the 1960s. The fatality rate per vehicle mile traveled is approximately half of what it was then. And if I am not mistaken, the injury rate per vehicle mile traveled has fallen as well.
gardendance wrote: paulsafety wrote: Driving a car to work represents a far greater safety risk than using public transit.As Samantha mentioned, and I agree, perception plays a big part. I tried your argument with a friend, they felt that the statistics were all the other people who were injuring themselves in accidents that were their own fault, "It won't happen to me because I'm a careful driver and I don't want to trust some bus or train driver with my safety"I hate to admit it, and to remind everyone, but personal transport does give one a good deal of personal power, or at least the feeling of power, against those who would do us harm. And that goes for accidental harm or deliberate criminal harm.
paulsafety wrote: Driving a car to work represents a far greater safety risk than using public transit.
Driving a car to work represents a far greater safety risk than using public transit.
As Samantha mentioned, and I agree, perception plays a big part. I tried your argument with a friend, they felt that the statistics were all the other people who were injuring themselves in accidents that were their own fault, "It won't happen to me because I'm a careful driver and I don't want to trust some bus or train driver with my safety"
I hate to admit it, and to remind everyone, but personal transport does give one a good deal of personal power, or at least the feeling of power, against those who would do us harm. And that goes for accidental harm or deliberate criminal harm.
Most people that I know, who are afraid to fly on commercial jets, mention the lack of trust of the pilots, the maintenance, etc. Not very rational, 100% self-led perceptions.
Also, per AAAFTS "traffic safety culture" survey/study completed this year, most people have no clue how dangerous it is to drive, or how many people die annually (regardless of their belief in their abilities). http://www.aaafoundation.org/pdf/2008TSCIndexFactSheet.pdf
I guess its hard for me since I work in highway safety -- 42,000 fatalities (ie. Funerals) and 2.4 million injuries per year in the USA from cars, trucks and motorcycles on public roads versus about 275-300 fatalities per year from all modes of public transit (Sources - National Safety Council & BTS)
Perhaps the "perception" that gas prices are hovering around $4 per gallon may encourage a broad spectrum of people to try transit -- once tried and seen as a solid option (ie. convenient, safe, reasonably inexpensive) they may stick with it.
Paul F.
paulsafety wrote: -- unfortunately, it's very difficult (if impossible) to get that level of detail from web sites (ie. Uniform Crime Report (UCR) data from the FBI).
-- unfortunately, it's very difficult (if impossible) to get that level of detail from web sites (ie. Uniform Crime Report (UCR) data from the FBI).
BTS Stats for crime on public transit from 1995 through 2005 on file here:
http://www.bts.gov/publications/national_transportation_statistics/html/table_02_34.html
Interestingly "Fare Evasion" stats were climbing steadily, driven mainly by light rail transit.
Other crime stats were even or trending down during the decade 1995-2005.
This is for all systems, not just Dallas.
This next link examines accidents 1995-2005 by mode.
http://www.bts.gov/publications/national_transportation_statistics/html/table_02_32.html
Samantha wrote: In addition to reported crime, many transit riders are exposed to doggy people with a variety of annoying behaviors. Anyone in Dallas can board the light rail system. Tickets are not required to enter the station area or board the trains. Fare checkers patrol the trains, but not very often, or at least it does not seem to be very often. Thus, all kinds of street people get on the trains, and they can make the journey unpleasant at best.
In addition to reported crime, many transit riders are exposed to doggy people with a variety of annoying behaviors. Anyone in Dallas can board the light rail system. Tickets are not required to enter the station area or board the trains. Fare checkers patrol the trains, but not very often, or at least it does not seem to be very often. Thus, all kinds of street people get on the trains, and they can make the journey unpleasant at best.
I mentioned in another post, Austin Tx for a few years in the 80's ran their buses fare free. The story I heard was that the cost to replace the existing fare boxes with the newfangled electronic ones was more than the revenue they expected to collect, so they just got rid of fare boxes and didn't bother collecting fares. One complaint was that this encouraged the riffraff to ride.
My how times change department: when I was growing up in Philadelphia a major irk for me was smoking on transit. Generally the commuter railroads had cars designated for smoking, and folks would rarely light up unless they were in one of those cars. The buses, subways and trolleys were a completely different situation. I can remember very few times before 1980 when I could go through a trip without at least 1 passenger smoking something, often it was more than 1 passenger, and often it was marijuana. Thankfully that particular crime seems to have been eliminated, unless I just jinxed us all by mentioning it.
Getting back to your 'doggy people', a few years ago I moved to NJ, so I commuted to Philly via NJTransit river line. Somehow the folks must have sensed that my wife works at a drug rehab facility, just about every week I'd hear a conversation about folks who were in or had just gotten out of rehab. Now why did I hear that so much more often on the NJTransit River line than I ever did on city transit in Philly?
paulsafety wrote: Interestingly, a google for "dallas, carjackings" turned up several stories of carjackings in the Dallas metro area -- perhaps folks who commute by car are at the same level of risk?I agree that crime on transit will keep some people away, and that rail/transit enthusiasts may (at times) overlook it's impact on ridership. I just think that it's only one of many factors affecting any system's ridership stats.
Interestingly, a google for "dallas, carjackings" turned up several stories of carjackings in the Dallas metro area -- perhaps folks who commute by car are at the same level of risk?
I agree that crime on transit will keep some people away, and that rail/transit enthusiasts may (at times) overlook it's impact on ridership. I just think that it's only one of many factors affecting any system's ridership stats.
Sadly for public transit having the couple of tons of steel and space around you that an automobile provides does grant some degree of safety. For evildoers to cause you harm when you're in an auto they usually have an automobile themselves, or a gun. Very few people win who start a fistfight against an automobile, your fellow transit rider however can hurt you with his fist.
Whether crime is disproportionately higher on or in DART's facilities or vehicles depends on the area of the city. Many of Dallas' neighborhoods have crime rates that are probably higher than those on the transit system. But many of the city's neighborhoods, as well as most of the suburbs, have relatively low crime rates, especially those against persons. The system wide transit crime rate is probably higher than that found in the low crime neighborhoods.
Perception is reality. If people think riding transit after hours or on the weekends is dangerous, irrespective of the probability of being a crime victim, the only ones who will do it are those who do not have an alternative. And this group makes up a significant percentage of the after hours riders.
Samantha wrote: The chance of being attacked on public transit in Dallas is probably no greater than being assaulted in some of the city's high crime areas. But many middle class people will not ride the train because of the perception of crime. Dallas has the highest crime rate of any city with more than one million people for than eight years running. So the need for more transit cops comes as no surprise to this former resident.
The chance of being attacked on public transit in Dallas is probably no greater than being assaulted in some of the city's high crime areas. But many middle class people will not ride the train because of the perception of crime.
Dallas has the highest crime rate of any city with more than one million people for than eight years running. So the need for more transit cops comes as no surprise to this former resident.
There's no question that crime happens on all modes of public transport (ie. ferries, funiculars, et.al.) The obvious concern is whether the crime rate is disproportionately higher on public transport than on the average city block with alleys, blind corners, ATM machines, etc. Also, when making comparisons between modes it would very helpful to compare statistics -- unfortunately, it's very difficult (if impossible) to get that level of detail from web sites (ie. Uniform Crime Report (UCR) data from the FBI).
You point out that Dallas isn't a model community right now. I'm sure at least some who post here regularly can remember times when our own local city was very "risky" to travel at odd hours -- things can change for the better or worse depending on economy, local citizens taking back their city, levels of police staffing, etc.
Researching DART's site and press clippings about DART ridership show a rollercoaster of statistics and explanations about why ridership is UP, or DOWN depending on the author, the years being compared, the affect of re-routing buses after extentions of rail lines are opened, etc.
Dallas Area Rapid Transit (DART) is seeking 35 additional transit police officers to patrol its system. The current authorization is 200 officers, although only 177 of the slots have been filled. The increase in the DART police force will cost the agency an additional $1.5 million for the first year. This is on top of the $1.25 million that was authorized last year to increase the transit police force from 170 to 200 officers.
In 2007 there were 395 reported crimes against persons and 834 crimes against property on DART vehicles or around its facilities. Through May of this year the number of crimes against persons was down slightly, whilst the crimes against property were about the same as in 2007.
Many of the incidents happen on the light rail trains or at the stations. Most of them happen at night or on the weekend, but there are a numerous incidents during the day. Surveys have shown that most people who commute on the light rail system feel safe during regular commuter hours, but many indicated that they would not ride the trains after hours or on the weekends.
In Dallas, at least, there is little crime on the buses because the driver can keep a watch on the passengers. But on the trains the driver is isolated. While he or she can observe what is going on in the first unit, at least its forward section, he does not have a clue what is going on in the second or third unit. It is relatively easy for the bad guys to get on the second or third unit, wreak havoc, and be off the train before anyone is the wiser. DART is installing cameras on the light rail cars, but many of the bad guys know how to mask them while misbehaving.
Crime is one of the aspects of public transit, especially rail, which its enthusiasts overlook.
Dallas has had the highest crime rate of any city with a population of more than one million for eight years running. So the need for more transit cops comes as no surprise to this former resident.
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