why not all doors, both sides of train?

[gardendance]

Especially in transit, which for ages has had remote controlled doors, what are some reasons why a vehicle operator, or even agency, would not want to use as many doors as possible to speed passenger flow?

I've seen extremes: Jamaica, Queens NY on the Long Island Railroad, 3 12 car trains will meet on adjacent tracks with shared platforms between them. All doors open on the inward side of the outer 2 trains, and all doors on both sides of the middle train. Passengers from train 1 walk across platform 1, train 2, and platform 2 to board train 3.

the other end of the spectrum, Philadelphia streetcar, the motorman opens only 1 of the 2 front doors, regardless of how big the alighting crowd.

still sticking it to Philly, Suburban Station, some tracks have had 2 platforms since the early 1980's, yet I don't remember ever seeing a train open both sides.

[cbq9911a]

My experience at a RR museum is that you only use the doors on one side so that you can watch the people detraining.  This makes sure nothing unusual happens, like a fall.

In transit, with remote control doors, you'd need one person on each sideto mind the doors. 

[Nataraj]

you can always close one side at a time...

[daveklepper]

Single end cars have doors on only one side to provide addtional seats.

With on-board operator fair collection, opening only one front door limits fair evasion.   As well as allowing the operator safety supervision.

 

In communities where there is general law obayance, most transit systems do allow exiting by the rear door, streetcars as well as buses.   Toronto is one example that uses all doors.

Note that Jamaica Station has straight platform tracks, high platforms, and a history of useing a train on one track as a bridge for passengers changing between trains on both sides of that train.   Happens every day during rush hour, when a Penn Station local (stopping at Kew Gardens, Forest Hills, and Woodside, the latter for connection to the IRT & direct to Grand Central and Times Square) Penn Station Express, and Atlantic and Flatbush Aves. Brooklyn Express are synchronized to exchange passengers at Jamaica, the three having come from three different LI suburban points.

[gardendance]

With on-board operator fair collection, opening only one front door limits fair evasion.   As well as allowing the operator safety supervision.

Philadelphia and West Chester Traction - Red  Arrow Lines - SEPTA equipment had a chain to draw across the second leaf of their motorman's right side folding double doors. I volunteered for the Buckingham Valley Trolley Association, we had a Brill Master Unit. One of our members, maybe he was even one of our volunteers, was a SEPTA motorman who had operated the then retired Brill cars, he mentioned that he had always wondered what purpose the little slot in the stanchion between the 2 doors performed. My brother pulled the chain across and said "That's for crowd control". In his several years of operating at SEPTA, and my several years of volunteering, we had never noticed the chain.

Some more modern buses I've seen put the front and center door controls into separate buttons, but the Master Units' door controls were similar to what I remember on the generation of buses when I was growing up, a 5 position lever, center to closeddoors, right to open front doors first, then rear doors, left to open rear doors first, then front doors. These double ended trolleys had a second lever for the left side doors, which of course regular buses don't have.

Phildelphia city single ended PCC's had various toggle switches. If I remember correctly there was something for door 1, door 2 and both, maybe also controls for the individual center doors. Somewhere in there was something to allow the center doors to open if a passenger was standing on the door step treadle, and I think the treadle only activated if at least one front door was open. Philly's replacement eqipment, Kawasaki 1982, had similar controls, but tiny plastic switches. Some motormen joked about how they needed a lighter touch or they'd break those switches, something impossible with the sturdy steel toggles that the PCC's had.

Boston must have some extra control for the buses and trackless trolleys that serve Cambridge Harvard Square station and that have a left side center door. Another example of opening lots of doors, Harvard Square and Park Street stations I remember they opened both sides.

Does anybody know other cities that had single end equipment with platforms on the wrong side, and why?

Boston looks to me like the situation must have been that they built the subway in the double ended era, and so could put platforms on either side, then they bought single ended PCC's which had to get the extra left side door, then in recent times have reverted to double ended equipment.

I'm confused about Cleveland. Didn't the Shaker Heights Rapid Transit come first with single ended cars, doors on the right side, and then the Airport-Windermere line with double ended subway like cars with doors on both sides second? So why did they have left hand operation in the spots where the low platform Shaker and high platform Airport lines ran together? And I understand that they no longer follow this practice now that they have double enders on the former Shaker lines. http://web.presby.edu/~jtbell/transit/Cleveland/SHRT/ says 25 of the PCC's had doors on the left side were intended for a downtown subway that was never built.

So did Cleveland build the Shaker lines with conventional right hand operation with right hand platforms, then add impressive flying junctions for left hand operation with shared split high and low center platforms when the airport line came along? Why didn't they just keep the right hand operation with shared right hand platforms? And did they then resignal everything for right hand operation again? By the way, I rode double ended Breda equipment there in 1984 and they still used the left hand operation.

In communities where there is general law obayance, most transit systems do allow exiting by the rear door, streetcars as well as buses.   Toronto is one example that uses all doors.

I agree, if we all obeyed the "move to the rear and speed your ride" and "please leave by center door" signs we probably would actually speed our ride. Toronto's the only case where I saw that enforced. We were approaching Yonge Street, the motorman spotted a big crowd waiting on the corner, some folks on the car were walking to the front door, he authoritatively said "Center doors at Yonge Street" and everybody obeyed.

They also have a variation of the self service with roving inspector system on the Queen Street line. That route uses ACLRV's Articulated Canadian Light Rail Vehicles. Single ended, double truck front section 2 front doors, 2 center doors. Single truck rear section after the articulated joint with another 2 doors. The single motorman opens all doors, passengers do not need to present proof of payment when they board unless they want to get a free paper transfer to another line, in which case they must use the front door to transact with the motorman. If I rmember correctly, they do not use roving inspectors, I guess the bean counters figure not enough folks want a free ride on just the Queen Street car to warrant paying fare inspectors.

Note that Jamaica Station has straight platform tracks, high platforms, and a history of useing a train on one track as a bridge for passengers changing between trains on both sides of that train.   Happens every day during rush hour

and non-rush hours. I rode a Saturday trip from Penn Station and changed to a Montauk train.

[gardendance]

With on-board operator fair collection, opening only one front door limits fair evasion.   As well as allowing the operator safety supervision.

Philadelphia and West Chester Traction - Red  Arrow Lines - SEPTA equipment had a chain to draw across the second leaf of their motorman's right side folding double doors. I volunteered for the Buckingham Valley Trolley Association, we had a Brill Master Unit. One of our members, maybe he was even one of our volunteers, was a SEPTA motorman who had operated the then retired Brill cars, he mentioned that he had always wondered what purpose the little slot in the stanchion between the 2 doors performed. My brother pulled the chain across and said "That's for crowd control". In his several years of operating at SEPTA, and my several years of volunteering, we had never noticed the chain.

Some more modern buses I've seen put the front and center door controls into separate buttons, but the Master Units' door controls were similar to what I remember on the generation of buses when I was growing up, a 5 position lever, center to closeddoors, right to open front doors first, then rear doors, left to open rear doors first, then front doors. These double ended trolleys had a second lever for the left side doors, which of course regular buses don't have.

Phildelphia city single ended PCC's had various toggle switches. If I remember correctly there was something for door 1, door 2 and both, maybe also controls for the individual center doors. Somewhere in there was something to allow the center doors to open if a passenger was standing on the door step treadle, and I think the treadle only activated if at least one front door was open. Philly's replacement eqipment, Kawasaki 1982, had similar controls, but tiny plastic switches. Some motormen joked about how they needed a lighter touch or they'd break those switches, something impossible with the sturdy steel toggles that the PCC's had.

Boston must have some extra control for the buses and trackless trolleys that serve Cambridge Harvard Square station and that have a left side center door. Another example of opening lots of doors, Harvard Square and Park Street stations I remember they opened both sides.

Does anybody know other cities that had single end equipment with platforms on the wrong side, and why?

Boston looks to me like the situation must have been that they built the subway in the double ended era, and so could put platforms on either side, then they bought single ended PCC's which had to get the extra left side door, then in recent times have reverted to double ended equipment.

I'm confused about Cleveland. Didn't the Shaker Heights Rapid Transit come first with single ended cars, doors on the right side, and then the Airport-Windermere line with double ended subway like cars with doors on both sides second? So why did they have left hand operation in the spots where the low platform Shaker and high platform Airport lines ran together? And I understand that they no longer follow this practice now that they have double enders on the former Shaker lines. http://web.presby.edu/~jtbell/transit/Cleveland/SHRT/ says 25 of the PCC's had doors on the left side were intended for a downtown subway that was never built.

So did Cleveland build the Shaker lines with conventional right hand operation with right hand platforms, then add impressive flying junctions for left hand operation with shared split high and low center platforms when the airport line came along? Why didn't they just keep the right hand operation with shared right hand platforms? And did they then resignal everything for right hand operation again? By the way, I rode double ended Breda equipment there in 1984 and they still used the left hand operation.

In communities where there is general law obayance, most transit systems do allow exiting by the rear door, streetcars as well as buses.   Toronto is one example that uses all doors.

I agree, if we all obeyed the "move to the rear and speed your ride" and "please leave by center door" signs we probably would actually speed our ride. Toronto's the only case where I saw that enforced. We were approaching Yonge Street, the motorman spotted a big crowd waiting on the corner, some folks on the car were walking to the front door, he authoritatively said "Center doors at Yonge Street" and everybody obeyed.

They also have a variation of the self service with roving inspector system on the Queen Street line. That route uses ACLRV's Articulated Canadian Light Rail Vehicles. Single ended, double truck front section 2 front doors, 2 center doors. Single truck rear section after the articulated joint with another 2 doors. The single motorman opens all doors, passengers do not need to present proof of payment when they board unless they want to get a free paper transfer to another line, in which case they must use the front door to transact with the motorman. If I rmember correctly, they do not use roving inspectors, I guess the bean counters figure not enough folks want a free ride on just the Queen Street car to warrant paying fare inspectors.

Note that Jamaica Station has straight platform tracks, high platforms, and a history of useing a train on one track as a bridge for passengers changing between trains on both sides of that train.   Happens every day during rush hour

and non-rush hours. I rode a Saturday trip from Penn Station and changed to a Montauk train.

[gardendance]

With on-board operator fair collection, opening only one front door limits fair evasion.   As well as allowing the operator safety supervision.

Philadelphia and West Chester Traction - Red  Arrow Lines - SEPTA equipment had a chain to draw across the second leaf of their motorman's right side folding double doors. I volunteered for the Buckingham Valley Trolley Association, we had a Brill Master Unit. One of our members, maybe he was even one of our volunteers, was a SEPTA motorman who had operated the then retired Brill cars, he mentioned that he had always wondered what purpose the little slot in the stanchion between the 2 doors performed. My brother pulled the chain across and said "That's for crowd control". In his several years of operating at SEPTA, and my several years of volunteering, we had never noticed the chain.

Some more modern buses I've seen put the front and center door controls into separate buttons, but the Master Units' door controls were similar to what I remember on the generation of buses when I was growing up, a 5 position lever, center to closeddoors, right to open front doors first, then rear doors, left to open rear doors first, then front doors. These double ended trolleys had a second lever for the left side doors, which of course regular buses don't have.

Phildelphia city single ended PCC's had various toggle switches. If I remember correctly there was something for door 1, door 2 and both, maybe also controls for the individual center doors. Somewhere in there was something to allow the center doors to open if a passenger was standing on the door step treadle, and I think the treadle only activated if at least one front door was open. Philly's replacement eqipment, Kawasaki 1982, had similar controls, but tiny plastic switches. Some motormen joked about how they needed a lighter touch or they'd break those switches, something impossible with the sturdy steel toggles that the PCC's had.

Boston must have some extra control for the buses and trackless trolleys that serve Cambridge Harvard Square station and that have a left side center door. Another example of opening lots of doors, Harvard Square and Park Street stations I remember they opened both sides.

Does anybody know other cities that had single end equipment with platforms on the wrong side, and why?

Boston looks to me like the situation must have been that they built the subway in the double ended era, and so could put platforms on either side, then they bought single ended PCC's which had to get the extra left side door, then in recent times have reverted to double ended equipment.

I'm confused about Cleveland. Didn't the Shaker Heights Rapid Transit come first with single ended cars, doors on the right side, and then the Airport-Windermere line with double ended subway like cars with doors on both sides second? So why did they have left hand operation in the spots where the low platform Shaker and high platform Airport lines ran together? And I understand that they no longer follow this practice now that they have double enders on the former Shaker lines. http://web.presby.edu/~jtbell/transit/Cleveland/SHRT/ says 25 of the PCC's had doors on the left side were intended for a downtown subway that was never built.

So did Cleveland build the Shaker lines with conventional right hand operation with right hand platforms, then add impressive flying junctions for left hand operation with shared split high and low center platforms when the airport line came along? Why didn't they just keep the right hand operation with shared right hand platforms? And did they then resignal everything for right hand operation again? By the way, I rode double ended Breda equipment there in 1984 and they still used the left hand operation.

In communities where there is general law obayance, most transit systems do allow exiting by the rear door, streetcars as well as buses.   Toronto is one example that uses all doors.

I agree, if we all obeyed the "move to the rear and speed your ride" and "please leave by center door" signs we probably would actually speed our ride. Toronto's the only case where I saw that enforced. We were approaching Yonge Street, the motorman spotted a big crowd waiting on the corner, some folks on the car were walking to the front door, he authoritatively said "Center doors at Yonge Street" and everybody obeyed.

They also have a variation of the self service with roving inspector system on the Queen Street line. That route uses ACLRV's Articulated Canadian Light Rail Vehicles. Single ended, double truck front section 2 front doors, 2 center doors. Single truck rear section after the articulated joint with another 2 doors. The single motorman opens all doors, passengers do not need to present proof of payment when they board unless they want to get a free paper transfer to another line, in which case they must use the front door to transact with the motorman. If I rmember correctly, they do not use roving inspectors, I guess the bean counters figure not enough folks want a free ride on just the Queen Street car to warrant paying fare inspectors.

Note that Jamaica Station has straight platform tracks, high platforms, and a history of useing a train on one track as a bridge for passengers changing between trains on both sides of that train.   Happens every day during rush hour

and non-rush hours. I rode a Saturday trip from Penn Station and changed to a Montauk train.

[al-in-chgo]

As most people have said, it's partly custom, partly safety. 

I agree that part of the "custom" part is that in the USA we are reluctant to let passengers board on the honor system in the middle of a vehicle (LRT say), although I know of at least one system (Charlotte's LYNX), where you buy your ticket or pass by machine at the station, but LRT system employees can check that out on a random basis on the train.  My understanding is it's a civic citation and a considerable fine if caught without card or ticket.  There are probably others I just don't know about. 

The honor system seems to be pretty much the rule on public transit systems in the German-speaking countries.  At least, I have never seen otherwise, not even on buses.  But their systems also allow the possibility that the cheating passenger will be kontrolliert, found without ticket or card, then cited and fined. 

 

 

[JT22CW]

Especially in transit, which for ages has had remote controlled doors, what are some reasons why a vehicle operator, or even agency, would not want to use as many doors as possible to speed passenger flow?

I've seen extremes: Jamaica, Queens NY on the Long Island Railroad, 3 12 car trains will meet on adjacent tracks with shared platforms between them. All doors open on the inward side of the outer 2 trains, and all doors on both sides of the middle train. Passengers from train 1 walk across platform 1, train 2, and platform 2 to board train 3.

the other end of the spectrum, Philadelphia streetcar, the motorman opens only 1 of the 2 front doors, regardless of how big the alighting crowd.

still sticking it to Philly, Suburban Station, some tracks have had 2 platforms since the early 1980's, yet I don't remember ever seeing a train open both sides.

Platforms don't come cheap.  Right of way to accommodate multiple platforms next to a single track is especially not cheap, and is the largest cost there.

How fast do you want to rush in and out of the train?  You want stampedes?

[gardendance]

Platforms don't come cheap.  Right of way to accommodate multiple platforms next to a single track is especially not cheap, and is the largest cost there.

How fast do you want to rush in and out of the train?  You want stampedes?

you're more likely to get stampedes in places where you restrict access. If you have 50 people at a terminal who want to get off and you open only 1 door it's going to be a bigger problem than if you open 2 doors. And I would expect that both the operating authority and the passengers would want station dwell time to be as short as practical.

I'm not talking about adding extra platforms, or extra doors, I'm talking about why doesn't a given agency use the doors and platforms they have.

One of the examples I gave was SEPTA Suburban station. Granted, it's been about 3 years since I've hung out and watched, maybe they've changed things since then. Fare collection is the old fashioned way, train crew comes through and lifts tickets, so fare enforcement doesn't seem like an issue. 2 of the tracks have platforms on both sides, so why doesn't SEPTA use both platforms on those tracks.

Most of the cars have remote controlled doors, so again, why doesn't SEPTA open every door at their high platform railroad stations? I've been on many 2 car trains, 2 doors per side per car, and had the crew open only 1 door. What was wrong with those other 3 doors? The impression I get is that some of the crew members just didn't want to bother getting up and watching the passenger flow. But some trains I saw where they did open every door, even the engineer's door, so this reinforces my impression that it's crew member's laziness, not some real safety or fare collection issue. And just a few blocks away on the Market and Broad St subways it's been open all doors since dinosaur times.

Again, it's been a few years since I rode, but AMTRAK would do the same thing quite often, open only 1 of the vestibule doors between 2 cars, so if you were in car #2 you had to walk across your vestibule to the next car's vestibule and merge with car #1's passengers. And I can remember seeing 2 crew members standing outside.

By the way, does anybody remember the early days of Amfleet? They had illuminated signs inside the cars which said "Exit this end" or "Exit Other end". I can remember seeing them lit in the 1970's, but I think I was the only person who ever obeyed them.

[henry6]

There are so many reasons.  Each instance you stated is a different situation.  Sometimes it is crowd control on and off the train, sometimes crowd control at the station itself.  Sometimes it is because there is a platform only on one side. Sometimes it is the only door(s) that work!  Sometimes it is so that the train crew can see or observe best.  Sometimes you don't want someone getting on the train or not in a particular car or you want to see if someone got on.  There as many answers as number of trains and stops per day!

[Anonymous]

Marta in Atlanta at the 5 Points station the train operator opens the doors on both sides of the train. Even more to the point MARTA operates trains with a single operator(who controls the doors) no conductor. It does delay the door openings when the platform is on the left side of the train while the operator gets up and goes to the other side.(and on departure as well)

     One other comment.  I saw  a picture of a bus in use in Rome(Italy)  35 or 40 footer I think. The interesting thing about the bus was 4 sets of double doors on each side of the bus. With loads being what they were this kind of setup had the ability to soak up crowds in a big hurrry.

Rgds IGN

[JT22CW]

Platforms don't come cheap.  Right of way to accommodate multiple platforms next to a single track is especially not cheap, and is the largest cost there.

How fast do you want to rush in and out of the train?  You want stampedes?

you're more likely to get stampedes in places where you restrict access. If you have 50 people at a terminal who want to get off and you open only 1 door it's going to be a bigger problem than if you open 2 doors. And I would expect that both the operating authority and the passengers would want station dwell time to be as short as practical

That's a different matter.  And frankly, dwell times at terminals are not as significant as at outlying stations.

I'm not talking about adding extra platforms, or extra doors, I'm talking about why doesn't a given agency use the doors and platforms they have.

One of the examples I gave was SEPTA Suburban station. Granted, it's been about 3 years since I've hung out and watched, maybe they've changed things since then. Fare collection is the old fashioned way, train crew comes through and lifts tickets, so fare enforcement doesn't seem like an issue. 2 of the tracks have platforms on both sides, so why doesn't SEPTA use both platforms on those tracks.

Most of the cars have remote controlled doors, so again, why doesn't SEPTA open every door at their high platform railroad stations? I've been on many 2 car trains, 2 doors per side per car, and had the crew open only 1 door. What was wrong with those other 3 doors? The impression I get is that some of the crew members just didn't want to bother getting up and watching the passenger flow. But some trains I saw where they did open every door, even the engineer's door, so this reinforces my impression that it's crew member's laziness, not some real safety or fare collection issue. And just a few blocks away on the Market and Broad St subways it's been open all doors since dinosaur times

Maybe you should ask the crew members why they do that instead of jumping to assumptions of "laziness".  Besides the very real possibility that they were ordered to perform their duties in this manner (a railroad rulebook will leave you scratching your head as to "why did they write this/that rule? it seems absurd"), it may be that the trains (consider the average age of SEPTA's EMU fleet) don't have their doors in good enough shape to accommodate your undefined ideal.

Sounds like you'd really hate it on the NYC Subway's 8th Avenue Line, because the 59th Street/Columbus Circle station has a center platform in between the express tracks that is permanently closed to passenger access.

And if SEPTA had taken up with the PRR's bizarre plan to operate the Philly commuter rail like streetcars or the Norristown Line (this is why the engineer's position on the Silverliner III is on the fireman's side, due to an aborted plan to have the engineer collect tickets and/or cash fares), you'd have a long wait for doors to open up to get off the train.

Again, it's been a few years since I rode, but AMTRAK would do the same thing quite often, open only 1 of the vestibule doors between 2 cars, so if you were in car #2 you had to walk across your vestibule to the next car's vestibule and merge with car #1's passengers. And I can remember seeing 2 crew members standing outside

This is a problem with a mere two cars?

Amfleet Is are about 33 years old, and have had to suffer from deferred maintenance.  Don't be surprised if those "automatic" doors are also wearing out.  Amfleet IIs have only one vestibule per car, and the doors are not automatic at all.  The doors on Horizon cars are manual.

[daveklepper]

The center platform at Columbus Circle 59th Street is the popular boarding point for fantrips and "Nostalgia Specials" using operating museum equipment.

[gardendance]

Platforms don't come cheap.  Right of way to accommodate multiple platforms next to a single track is especially not cheap, and is the largest cost there.

That's a different matter.  And frankly, dwell times at terminals are not as significant as at outlying stations.

I'm a bit hazy about why you think dwell times at terminals are not as significant as at outlying stations. If the train's finishing its run and doesn't have to be anywhere else and there's a pocket at the terminal for it to sit in then I'd agree with you, but that's not always the case. for example Penn Station New York I imagine they need to get trains out of the way, even though they have an enormous number of tracks. And Suburban Station Philadelphia most trains run through, even though the majority of passengers usually disgorge there in the morning and board there in the evening.

Maybe you should ask the crew members why they do that instead of jumping to assumptions of "laziness".  Besides the very real possibility that they were ordered to perform their duties in this manner (a railroad rulebook will leave you scratching your head as to "why did they write this/that rule? it seems absurd"), it may be that the trains (consider the average age of SEPTA's EMU fleet) don't have their doors in good enough shape to accommodate your undefined ideal.

I have actually asked on occasion. At least once the brusque response was "Cause that's the door I opened". Another occasion a 5 car train pulled in, crew member inside opened a door, got out and closed it immediately. I asked him where "Where do you want me to board", he said "Up front with the rest of the cattle." There were easily more than 40 people milling about that stretch of platform already before he opened the door, and at that point the train was about 5 minutes late. Needless to say making those 40 or so people move up the platform a car length or 2 and squeeze into the pair of doors between cars 1 and 2, along with the equal number of people who were already waiting further up the platform, did not do anything to allow the train to make up its time.

So can you give me an example of one of these rulebook instances that orders a crewmember not to open an otherwise serviceable door? The average age of SEPTA's MU fleet is less than the average age of PATCO's fleet, and the youngest age of Philly's Broad St Subway fleet for most of my lifetime. I was born in 1959, at which time the newest cars on Broad St were just under 30 years old, and they kept going just under another 25 years. Both those installations had little problem routinely using all doors on one side. What's so special about railroad rules vs subway rules? What advantage does the railroad rule give us?

Also I think I defined my ideal pretty well in the thread title, I'd like to use all doors, both sides of the train.

Sounds like you'd really hate it on the NYC Subway's 8th Avenue Line, because the 59th Street/Columbus Circle station has a center platform in between the express tracks that is permanently closed to passenger access.

Yep, as I mentioned before

I'm not talking about adding extra platforms, or extra doors, I'm talking about why doesn't a given agency use the doors and platforms they have.

so if New York had gone to the effort, expense, etc... once upon a time to build a platform, which according to

The center platform at Columbus Circle 59th Street is the popular boarding point for fantrips and "Nostalgia Specials" using operating museum equipment.

is still usable, then I'd appreciate if someone in the know would mention how they used it in the past and why they have decided no longer to use it.

This is a problem with a mere two cars?

Yes, trying to squeeze 2 cars' worth of passengers through 1 door is a problem. Again there are 2 doors per side on a regular old fashioned coach, more for some of the more recent models which have center doors in addition to the end vestibule doors. So that makes 4 doors in a 2 car train. I can understand it might be a bit of a hastle for the engineer to have to fold his seat and move out of folks' way, but there are still 3 doors left. Come on, get the people off, get the people on, and get the train moving. In my opinion the biggest impediment to high speed rail or rapid transit is not making the trains go fast, it's all the time they spend standing still with no apparent good reason.

[henry6]

Probably the neatest place to see the use of both sides of train doors open is on the LIRR Jamaica station during peak hours whereby a train becomes an extended platform between two other trains' platforms.  Done in both directions and it's fun to watch as a fan and welcomed as a harried commuter!

[JT22CW]

Platforms don't come cheap.  Right of way to accommodate multiple platforms next to a single track is especially not cheap, and is the largest cost there

That's a different matter.  And frankly, dwell times at terminals are not as significant as at outlying stations

I'm a bit hazy about why you think dwell times at terminals are not as significant as at outlying stations. If the train's finishing its run and doesn't have to be anywhere else and there's a pocket at the terminal for it to sit in then I'd agree with you, but that's not always the case. for example Penn Station New York I imagine they need to get trains out of the way, even though they have an enormous number of tracks. And Suburban Station Philadelphia most trains run through, even though the majority of passengers usually disgorge there in the morning and board there in the evening

Is it not the case that all trains run through Center City, except for Amtrak?

NYP is a terminus for both NJT and LIRR.  Used to be that, for NJT at least, trains would open up twenty minutes prior to departure (even at tracks other than 1 through 4, which are the only terminal tracks and used by NJT only); back in those days, NJT kept the center doors on Arrows shut, even during rush hour.  Now NJT, for reasons unknown and never explained at least to my satisfaction, waits until five minutes to departure before boarding trains.

LIRR trains usually run through to West Side Yard.  Some NJT trains run through to Sunnyside Yard.  Even with NYP as busy as it is, there aren't any (that I know of) inbound trains that are turned within minutes for outbound runs during evening rush (reverse that for morning rush).  I've never seen a train at NYP that detrains passengers only to have it fill up with outbound passengers right away.

Maybe you should ask the crew members why they do that instead of jumping to assumptions of "laziness".  Besides the very real possibility that they were ordered to perform their duties in this manner (a railroad rulebook will leave you scratching your head as to "why did they write this/that rule? it seems absurd"), it may be that the trains (consider the average age of SEPTA's EMU fleet) don't have their doors in good enough shape to accommodate your undefined ideal.

I have actually asked on occasion. At least once the brusque response was "Cause that's the door I opened". Another occasion a 5 car train pulled in, crew member inside opened a door, got out and closed it immediately. I asked him where "Where do you want me to board", he said "Up front with the rest of the cattle." There were easily more than 40 people milling about that stretch of platform already before he opened the door, and at that point the train was about 5 minutes late. Needless to say making those 40 or so people move up the platform a car length or 2 and squeeze into the pair of doors between cars 1 and 2, along with the equal number of people who were already waiting further up the platform, did not do anything to allow the train to make up its time.

I don't know the other side of those stories.  Until I get to hear them, I would not be able to judge.  Notwithstanding, my first impression is that they sound just too convenient (and, WADR, contrived).

So can you give me an example of one of these rulebook instances that orders a crewmember not to open an otherwise serviceable door?

I cannot, because I don't have access to a current SPAX rulebook.  However, rulebooks of other railroads are written as though lawyers composed them, regulating all sorts of crew behavior down to how to sit in an engineer's seat and what activites must be done and must be avoided there.

The average age of SEPTA's MU fleet is less than the average age of PATCO's fleet, and the youngest age of Philly's Broad St Subway fleet for most of my lifetime

All of SEPTA's current MU fleet was delivered by 1976 at the latest (the Silverliner IVs, and the IIs and IIIs are far older, the former from 1963 and the latter from 1967); the push-pulls date from 1987 and later (45 cars, eight electric locomotives).  I'd say that the great majority of SEPTA's RRD fleet is older on average than PATCO (PATCO I dating from 1968 and PATCO II from 1980); also, PATCO's fleet rebuild is only a few years old, never mind the fact that SEPTA's RRD network is far more widespread.

I was born in 1959, at which time the newest cars on Broad St were just under 30 years old, and they kept going just under another 25 years. Both those installations had little problem routinely using all doors on one side. What's so special about railroad rules vs subway rules? What advantage does the railroad rule give us?

I didn't cite any advantages; only differences.

SEPTA started running the regional rail only as recently as 1981; before that, Conrail was the operator.  Even nowadays, the city division is treated far differently from the regional rail division; the MFL's right of way receives expensive rebuilds, while the RRD's wires are left to fall apart.

Also I think I defined my ideal pretty well in the thread title, I'd like to use all doors, both sides of the train.

That brings me back to my point about land needs for platforms on both sides of the train.  Land ain't cheap, and zoning laws can be very strict (this doesn't seem to be a problem for the interstate highway system, though).  Unless of course you don't mind being dropped in the ballast, at risk of being hit by a train going in the opposite direction?

Sounds like you'd really hate it on the NYC Subway's 8th Avenue Line, because the 59th Street/Columbus Circle station has a center platform in between the express tracks that is permanently closed to passenger access.

Yep, as I mentioned before

I'm not talking about adding extra platforms, or extra doors, I'm talking about why doesn't a given agency use the doors and platforms they have.

so if New York had gone to the effort, expense, etc... once upon a time to build a platform, which according to

The center platform at Columbus Circle 59th Street is the popular boarding point for fantrips and "Nostalgia Specials" using operating museum equipment.

is still usable, then I'd appreciate if someone in the know would mention how they used it in the past and why they have decided no longer to use it.

So would I, frankly.  But things are what they are.  And that's but one station on the system, not to mention not necessarily the busiest one on the IND.

PATH, at 33rd Street terminal in Manhattan, opens one side at a time, one to let passengers out and then the other to let them in; there are three tracks, with platforms on both sides of the train.  Just to add another station to the mix.

This is a problem with a mere two cars?

Yes, trying to squeeze 2 cars' worth of passengers through 1 door is a problem. Again there are 2 doors per side on a regular old fashioned coach, more for some of the more recent models which have center doors in addition to the end vestibule doors. So that makes 4 doors in a 2 car train. I can understand it might be a bit of a hastle for the engineer to have to fold his seat and move out of folks' way, but there are still 3 doors left. Come on, get the people off, get the people on, and get the train moving. In my opinion the biggest impediment to high speed rail or rapid transit is not making the trains go fast, it's all the time they spend standing still with no apparent good reason.

I have never seen any of this happen on SEPTA's RRD.  Every time at Market East, Suburban or 30th Street, all doors open.

[henry6]

Of course, like in the example of PATH at 33rd St. and Hoboken, too, one side is opened to allow passengers to detrain then a minute or two later the other side opens to allow new pasengers to board...this being at terminal locations is simply to keep passenger from sneaking a second trip and allow the quick loading and unloading. 

Train crews may not open doors not out of laziness but out of passenger safety and or security.  It would be prefered, especially at low platform stations, that passenger be able to be assisted by the train crew.  Plus crew doesn't want one sneaking aboard on the other side and not having ticket picked up.

 As I said earlier, there are so many scenerios and reasons why and why not, we could go on and on and never cover them all.  But safety, security, and efficiency of operateing are the three prime reason door open or not.

[daveklepper]

As far as I remember, there are no Penn Staiton, NY tracks that have platforms on both sides.  And yes, there are some NJ Transit and LIRR trains that discharge and reverse without moving to the yard.   Seen it with my own eyes.   But this is not usually seen by travelers, because usually the boarding passengers for these particular trains are held at the upstairs or mezzanine gate points until the discharge passengers ascend the elevator, escalators, or stairs for that platform.  HOW DID I SEE IT?   Well, if you were a very informed railfan and wanted to be assured of a window seat in the middle of a car on the most scenic side and wanted to board before the running herd, what would you do?   Even as a teenager:

Hey kid, you're not supposed to be here.

I know.

What are you doing here?

Waiting for the Bablylon (or Trenton or Port Washington) train to arrive, discharge all its passengers, and then board.

OK.

[wjstix]

As most people have said, it's partly custom, partly safety. 

I agree that part of the "custom" part is that in the USA we are reluctant to let passengers board on the honor system in the middle of a vehicle (LRT say), although I know of at least one system (Charlotte's LYNX), where you buy your ticket or pass by machine at the station, but LRT system employees can check that out on a random basis on the train.  My understanding is it's a civic citation and a considerable fine if caught without card or ticket.  There are probably others I just don't know about. 

The honor system seems to be pretty much the rule on public transit systems in the German-speaking countries.  At least, I have never seen otherwise, not even on buses.  But their systems also allow the possibility that the cheating passenger will be kontrolliert, found without ticket or card, then cited and fined. 

 

 

The Twin Cities / Hiawatha line LRT works like the Charlotte one it sounds like. You buy tickets from a machine if you don't use a monthly commuter pass. They aren't routinely collected but you can be asked to produce it by employees or police doing random checks, and can be given a fine/ticket for not having one.

One exception (about not checking) are for people parking out in Bloomington or south Minneapolis and going to-from Twins or Vikings games in downtown. There are policemen at the platform and you have to show your ticket to ride. Most people at the park-and-rides buy the special 'event day' round trip tickets which are good for I think six hours, as the normal commuter ticket is good for as many rides as you want but only for I think a three hour period. Police check you at the Metrodome end too, after the game a lot of people who bought the regular tickets to get downtown are surprised to find out their tickets have expired and they have to buy a new one to get back to their cars.

BTW the Hiawatha line LRTs have doors on both sides of the cars. The platforms are between the rail lines, so a car assigned to one line today might use it's left side doors, and the right side doors the next day if it's on the other track. Originally streetcar lines like here in the Twin Cities had the doors on the right side of the car since the cars travelled on the streets in traffic, often with one set of tracks in one traffic lane and another rail line in a lane going the opposite direction, so it was closer for people waiting at the curb. Same reason busses only have doors on one side.

[paulsafety]

As far as I remember, there are no Penn Staiton, NY tracks that have platforms on both sides. 

How about track #18 between platforms 9 and 10?

http://forums.railfan.net/image.cgi?/PassengerTrains/penn_sta.jpg

Never been to that part of the station -- just going by the above link (it may or may not be accurate)

Paul F.

[daveklepper]

Guess it is the exception.   And it could possibly be a track frequently used by both Amtrak (PRR in the past) and LIRR, with the north platform normally LIRR and the south PRR-Amtrak.

[BellmoreBob]

An intelligent use of doors on both sides occurs on Hudson-Bergen Light Rail, northbound trains, at Exchange Place, Jersey City.  There are an island platform, an extra platform on the river side, and crowds.  It is much safer for people heading east to office buildings or the PATH station to leave by the riverside doors than to walk in front of the train.  This maneuever is done quickly.  The operator closes each side separately, aided by television cameras on the side of the cars.

[daveklepper]

Regarding 59th Street, Columbus Circle.   I think the original intent was that doors on both sides would be used on expresses only in the direction of heavy traffic, north in the evening, south in the morning.  People boarding from entering the station for expresses would be encouraged to use the center platform, allowing the side platform to serve those transferring across the platform between locals and expresses better.   All rapid transit trains have door controls at the side of the car where the doors are located, and the orginal 1932 through WWII R-1 - R-9 cars actually forced the conductor to stand on steps BETWEEN THE CARS to control the doors.   So with the time taken to go from one side of the train to the other, more time was lost by useing doors on both sides than saved.   This is my guess as to what happened --  some 74 years ago.

It is a lot easier on light rail and streetcar equipment to open the doors on both sides.

[gardendance]

a bit of recap of the both sides of the train part of this thread. Eventually I'll get back my complaint about operators who don't open all doors on one side.

Here are some examples which regularly use both sides. Just in the New York area we have several variations of fare collection and in and out passenger segregation.

Long Island Railroad, Jamaica. This is the only case I know which uses the middle train as a platform. All or most tracks have platforms on both sides. My first LIRR ride was a Saturday, both inbound and outbound I saw a 3 train connection, train 1 and 3 passengers used train 2 as an extension of their platform to transfer. Fare collection is traditional railroad conductor walking through to check tickets, so the crew's at least 2 people, more if they decide to put on more fare collectors who could conceivably watch the doors.

Most cars have a small window one can poke their head through to observe the platform while pressing the door buttons, doors are 2 sets per side of car, about 1 third of the distance from the car end. The operator's cab does not take up the entire car width, and some cars are married pairs with no cab at one end, so sometimes the doorman gets to hide in a cab, sometimes he works inside the passenger area. I think there are door controls on both sides, so the doorman doesn't have to jump from car to car to get diagonally opposite door controls.

There is some older equipment, I think on locomotive hauled diessel runs, which have manual? vestibule doors instead of the one third doors and I think they tend to put those on the outside 1 or 3 trains instead of the middle 2 train, and there's some new bi-level equipment whose door and control arrangement I'm not familiar with.

I have since revisited on weekday rush hours, and am always impressed with the efficiency. Some have commented that safety is one reason for not opening 2 sides, in this case not requiring transferring passengers to climb stairs to get from platform to platform is a safety advantage.

PATH, 33rd Street terminal in Manhattan, JT22CW mentioned opens one side at a time, one to let passengers out and then the other to let them in.

PATH, Newark, also a terminal, trains arrive upper level, 1 track, 1 platform, let passengers off. The trains then pull out of the station to change ends, or go home. Departing trains come back in on the main level. At least 1 track has platforms on both sides, in rush hour at least trains open doors on both sides. The time I noticed them using both sides was about 11am on a weekday, I've never noticed it on a weekend.

So in one case, 33rd St, PATH opens and closes 1 side at a time to segregate in and out passengers, in the other case, Newark, they move the entire train. Fare collection in both locations is turnstile before getting to the platform, but Newark arriving has no turnstile. So if one evades detection at 33rd St they get a seat before everyone else, at Newark one's also a fare evader. As far as I know PATH is still 2 man crew, motorman at front and doorman in the middle, and does not use television, just poke your head out the tiny window, which may or may not be in an operator's cab, just like the Long Island.

NJ Transit, Newark, light rail, trains to and from 2 different locations, 2 tracks, arriving, loop around to 2 tracks departing. Platform on the right side of each track, so track 1 can use track 2's platform as well. I don't remember if track 1 arriving opens both sides, but the arriving announcement tells transferring passengers to stay on, ride around the loop, and transfer to the other line at the departing platform. Departing track 1 trains open both sides, so transferring passengers use track 2 platform to change trains. This service used to be single ended PCC's, with doors on only 1 side, but prior to PCC's I assume they regularly operated double enders http://world.nycsubway.org/perl/show?18982 with doors on both sides. And in the old days the PCC's and double enders had regular curb level doors with a few steps up to get to carbody floor level, so I'm betting that they opened doors on only 1 side back then.

BellmoreBob says NJ Transit Hudson-Bergen Light Rail, northbound trains, at Exchange Place, Jersey City 1 direction has an extra platform, seems to be another case where it's safer to use both sides, so passengers can get to and from their street destinations without having to pass in front of the train.
These NJ Transit light rail cases are the newfangled self service honor ticketting system that has random inspections, trains are 1 man crews, full width cabs, and they use television to monitor the doors.

Other installations I know which use extra platforms:

Septa Philadelphia Upper Darby 69th St terminal rt 100 Norristown, 3 tracks 4 platforms. Similar to PATH 33rd St, arriving trains open the right side, discharge passengers, close doors, change ends, open the new right side doors, board passengers. Single man operation per car. Fare collection is pay when you board going to 69th St, pay when you leave going from 69th St, so fare evasion is not an issue for boarding-discharging segregation, just passenger flow. Frankly I don't see that flow is such a big issue, there's so little reverse commuting that you won't have many people trying to get on blocking people trying to get off. However the cars' interiors are 2 by 2 seating going to a rather narrow doorway to get to the vestibule exit, so I can see where one could argue you won't get much advantage if you allow passengers to use both sides at the same time.

Boston, Park Street red line subway, 2 tracks, 3 platforms, trains open both sides. Also at Park St, green line, 4 tracks, at least 1 of which has 2 platforms, on that(those) track(s) they open both sides.

Boston-Cambridge Harvard Square subway station, bus and trackless trolley berths have platforms on both sides, buses and trackless trolleys have an extra set of center doors on the left side, and open them as well as the regular right side doors.

Park St green line and Harvard Square there's nothing to prevent a passenger from walking across the vehicle path. I'm a little hazy on Harvard Square, but Park St all platforms have connecting stairways, so unless somebody got on the wrong train at another station and wants to make a mad dash to their correct train on the next platform they have no reason to run in front of a train. My memory of Harvard Square is that the right side had a no stairway path to the subway platform, so I assume the left side platform was for access to stairs to the cashier mezzanine or the street.

Park St red line platforms are level with the train floor, but green line and buses platforms are regular curb level height, although some of the vehicles are low floor, level with or no more than 1 step up from the platform, most have 3 steps up from platform to carbody.

One reason why I didn't explore the Harvard Square station as much as the Park St station was if I rode a trackless trolley out of Harvard Square I had to pay another fare to get back, but Park St connected to other cashier controlled stations so I could get a free foamer round trip. Plus Harvard Square had diesel smell from the buses.

The red line used to be 2 man crews with partial width cabs, so maybe the conductor had to dance from cab to cab to operate the left side doors, but nowadays it's full width cabs, I don't know if they still have 2 man crews. The green line and the buses and trackless trolleys have regular bus type operator positions, when the green line runs in trains they have a crew member at the 2nd car operator's seat who handles the doors.

Isn't Park St the oldest, or one of the oldest, subway stations in the US 1896? Unless they added that extra platform recently I'd have to assume they've had more than 100 years to decide if it's an acceptable safety risk to use both sides.

Atlanta MARTA 5 Points station both upper and lower levels 2 tracks 3 platforms, opens both sides. narig02 said this can delay both opening and closing doors. My recollection was that there was a control to open the opposite side doors on the operator's side of the cab, but the door close button controlled only the side you were on. The operator seat was on the right side and had full controls. Pulling into a station he'd put down his newspaper, press the door open button for the appropriate side, or both sides's buttons at 5 Points, so there was no discernable delay to open doors. For left side doors he'd walk over to the left side, where there were 4 buttons: door open for that side only, door close for that side only, train start, train stop. So at 5 points there was a slight delay while the operator walked from side to side to close the doors. Anyway what amazed and slightly frightened me was that for left side doors he'd press the door close button and the train stop button on the left side, walk back across the cab, sit down and pick up his newspaper again and not put the newspaper down until we got to the next station.

I don't remember any attempt to segregate arriving and departing passengers at 5 Points.

Other than NJ Transit's light rail I don't think any of the above use television to look at the doors, although I imagine the trend is to have it on new equipment.

Those are the only installations that I know of that regularly use both sides, but there's a good mix of fare collection, door control, passenger observation, platform and car floor level.

anybody got any others?

[henry6]

a bit of recap of the both sides of the train part of this thread. Eventually I'll get back my complaint about operators who don't open all doors on one side.

Here are some examples which regularly use both sides. Just in the New York area we have several variations of fare collection and in and out passenger segregation.

PATH, 33rd Street terminal in Manhattan, JT22CW mentioned opens one side at a time, one to let passengers out and then the other to let them in.

PATH, Newark, also a terminal, trains arrive upper level, 1 track, 1 platform, let passengers off. The trains then pull out of the station to change ends, or go home. Departing trains come back in on the main level. At least 1 track has platforms on both sides, in rush hour at least trains open doors on both sides. The time I noticed them using both sides was about 11am on a weekday, I've never noticed it on a weekend.

So in one case, 33rd St, PATH opens and closes 1 side at a time to segregate in and out passengers, in the other case, Newark, they move the entire train. Fare collection in both locations is turnstile before getting to the platform, but Newark arriving has no turnstile. So if one evades detection at 33rd St they get a seat before everyone else, at Newark one's also a fare evader. As far as I know PATH is still 2 man crew, motorman at front and doorman in the middle, and does not use television, just poke your head out the tiny window, which may or may not be in an operator's cab, just like the Long Island.

 Note: At Newark you cannot evade fare as train empties, goes west of the station, motorman walks train to other end before going into the other station track for eastbound trek.

   Hoboken also has the inbound trains open one side to discharge, then after a few moments, opens opposite side to board.  There is a slight chance here to evade fare.

But also you've got Pavonia, Exchange Place, Grove St. and a few other stops on the 33rd St. line that are center platform only for changing routes and direction. 

Then you got NYC's subways and...ah forget it!  Too many, too complicated for here!!!

 ALSO, RE: LIRR. New cars have full width cabs with door on left side but not right.  Not motormans cab as on older cars and not a vestebule as on much older cars.

[paulsafety]

PATH, Newark, also a terminal, trains arrive upper level, 1 track, 1 platform, let passengers off. The trains then pull out of the station to change ends, or go home. Departing trains come back in on the main level. At least 1 track has platforms on both sides, in rush hour at least trains open doors on both sides. The time I noticed them using both sides was about 11am on a weekday, I've never noticed it on a weekend.

So in one case, 33rd St, PATH opens and closes 1 side at a time to segregate in and out passengers, in the other case, Newark, they move the entire train. Fare collection in both locations is turnstile before getting to the platform, but Newark arriving has no turnstile. So if one evades detection at 33rd St they get a seat before everyone else, at Newark one's also a fare evader. As far as I know PATH is still 2 man crew, motorman at front and doorman in the middle, and does not use television, just poke your head out the tiny window, which may or may not be in an operator's cab, just like the Long Island.

You're correct that platform B and C border the only eastbound PATH track at Newark.  All PATH trains arrive empty and open doors on both sides to allow direct entry from either eastbound NJT or Amtrak passengers who are transfering.   There is fencing and turnstile control from both platforms and from stairs up from main level for folks coming to the station by bus or trolley.

http://images.nycsubway.org/i68000/wimg_68161.jpg

[daveklepper]

Park Street, Boston, Green Line and Boylston Street Station, are the oldest North American subway stations (1898).  Budapest's Foldatti subway is the only older one the world.