Welding Budd Cars

[al-in-chgo]

I'm not sure this is the best post to put my question on, but there are still Budd-built or -designed cars made for Amtrak or in RT duty (I think). 

I've heard about a special technique the workers used to connect various parts of Budd-built streamliner cars (corrugated, roof, boards, etc.); that it was [is??] called "shot welding." 

Not to pry into industrial secrets, but can someone define or has someone had experience with this "shot welding"?  Is it anything like arc welding?   -  a. s. 

 

[erikem]

I'm not an expert, so don't take my word for gospel...

My understanding is that shot-welding is a very precisely controlled form of spot welding. The time and current were controlled to prevent the austenite/martensite transformation from occuring (i.e. from the steel being above the transition temperature for too long).

[gardendance]

and what do you mean by Budd cars? Amtrak Amfleet, both 1 and 2, are Budd built, I'm sure you get to see some of them around Chicago

Also Delaware River Port Authority's DRPA Port Authority Transit Corportation's PATCO original 1968 equipment, still running http://world.nycsubway.org/us/phila/patco.html are Budd built.

both the Amfleet and Patco equipment are corrugated stainless steel.

Or are you asking about Budd Rail Diesel Cars RDC, their unsuccesful successor attempt the Self Propelled Vehicle SPV-2000? Also corrugated stainless steel, some examples of the RDC are in service somewhere in North America, http://www.budd-rdc.org/rdcwhere-lines.html lists 2 VIArail Canada and 2 Alaska Railroad runs.

[gardendance]

I also remember someone mentioning around 1980 that stainless steel is hard to repair. This was in reference to Southeastern Pennsylvania Transportation Authority SEPTA getting flat stainless steel LRV's from Kawasaki. I don't remember the particulars of how it was hard to repair, but your concern about welding techniques might not be unique to corrugated stainless steel, or Budd built equipment.

By the way, PATCO's Budd built cars has builder's plates that say "Designed and Built by Budd", the 1980 Canadian Vickers built cars plates say something on the order of "Designed by Budd, built by Canadian Vickers under license"

[al-in-chgo]

I also remember someone mentioning around 1980 that stainless steel is hard to repair. This was in reference to Southeastern Pennsylvania Transportation Authority SEPTA getting flat stainless steel LRV's from Kawasaki. I don't remember the particulars of how it was hard to repair, but your concern about welding techniques might not be unique to corrugated stainless steel, or Budd built equipment.

By the way, PATCO's Budd built cars has builder's plates that say "Designed and Built by Budd", the 1980 Canadian Vickers built cars plates say something on the order of "Designed by Budd, built by Canadian Vickers under license"

 

I can definitely agree about the second-generation "Budd" cars having actually been manufactured by Vickers in Canada.  I read a PATCO history not too long ago that talked about how convoluted the order was; from shortly after the line started running to the second big order of cars was about 6 - 7 years.  First PATCO had to scratch up some money (the UMTA in 1971 helped); then Budd declined building them; then the unions had to accept a no-bid contract on Vickers' part.  (FWIW Vickers also built some Montreal galleries per Bombardier specs, but Canadian Vickers [or in its death throws, "Versatile Vickers"(!)] is long gone now.)  

That was silly of me to assume that no orig. Budd's were in service.  Of course there are at least a few RDC's out there, and Amfleet I (but were all the other generations of Amfleets also by Budd?).  I don't know if the PATCO originals are still out there, but Vickers' built to Budd specs and were very very similar to the first generation.  I'm not sure Budd still has any rolling stock on our CTA; they built the first order of the second generation of "high performance" cars in the early-mid 1970s, slabsides with sliding doors (everything prior used the "alligator" style).  But the ones I actually remember riding in the eighties and nineties on the Red Line (and even now I think) were built by Boeing per Budd specs.

Isn't it nice that the federal government will give aerospace makers something completely out of their line to work on just to keep them in business?

 

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

Metra still has some Budd-built ex-CB&Q gallery coaches in service.  The only Budd-built equipment on CTA is the 2201-2350 series, with blinker doors and fluted siding.  They are still in service.  The 2400-2600 series (the first with sliding doors) was built by Boeing-Vertol.  In fairness to CTA, Budd had withdrawn from carbuilding at the time the 2400's were ordered.

[ndbprr]

stainless steel is very hard to weld.  It has to do with the chrome and nickel content which basically are impervious to joining together when heated. You also can't cut it with an Oxy-acetylene torch.  Budd developed the shot process using pressure and highly concentrated heat to successfully overcome these tendencies.

[al-in-chgo]

stainless steel is very hard to weld.  It has to do with the chrome and nickel content which basically are impervious to joining together when heated. You also can't cut it with an Oxy-acetylene torch.  Budd developed the shot process using pressure and highly concentrated heat to successfully overcome these tendencies.

Is the shot-weld process still something used when stainless steel must be welded, or was that a technique pecular to Budd and its licensees?   -  a. s.

 

[oltmannd]

The Viewliners are shot welded, too, but apparently the "art" had been lost and Bombardier?? had a terrible time getting the carbodies straight. -- at least that's the rumor I heard somewhere years ago....

[al-in-chgo]

The Viewliners are shot welded, too, but apparently the "art" had been lost and Bombardier?? had a terrible time getting the carbodies straight. -- at least that's the rumor I heard somewhere years ago....

The latest NJT bi-levels appear to be brushed stainless without fluting, but with some welding. 

I am still not quite sure were they came from.  Bombardier?  Overseas? 

 

[passengerfan]

Don't forget the VIA RAIL Budd cars built in 1954, many are still operating today.

Another group of cars still operating today that seem to be overlooked are those built by Hawker Siddeley as Tempo cars for the CN for fast Southwestern Ontario service. My understanding is they paid royalties to Budd for the shotwelding of these cars. Was fortunate to ride them many times, were comfortable seats; but the cars themselves at speed were anything but comfortable. That is why VIA RAIL sold them to Anshultz for use as the Ski Train out of Denver where speed is not really required but those cars should last for many years with a little TLC.

I believe Amtrak still has some of the ex NP ex BN Diners from 1956 still operating or held in reserve for possible future use.

The original Budd built Super Chief dining car still resides in the Sacramento Museum. 

And the NAVAJO the original Sleeper Lounge Observation from the same Super Chief is residing at a Museum in Colorado.

Must not forget the former CB&Q SILVER CHARGER the power unit for the GENERAL PERSHING ZEPHYR residing in the National Transport Museum near St. Louis.

And last but not least how about the 1934 PIONEER ZEPHYR residing in all its glory in the Museum of Science and Industry in Chicago. It was taken from the Museum a few years ago for restoration to its original appearance. The outside stainless steel required a few dents removed and a good buffing to restore it to its original look. In fact probably better than it ever looked when operating.  

TTFN Al -in - Stockton

[daveklepper]

The Nebraska Zepnyr with an E-5 occasionally runs at the Illinois Ry Museum.   The 1962 R-32's are still in service in New York City, just now some being phased out.   Were equipped with air-conditioning about 25 years ago.   60-foot long, 10 ft. wide (minus an inch or two) bowling ally seating, four doors per side, small corner cabs.   Were known for their reliability.  These were the orginal large USA order of stainless steel rapid transit cars.    The BMT had its little five-section multi six truck articulated "Little Zephyr" in 1935 and operated mostly on Brooklyn's Franklin Avenue Shuttle, scrapped by the Transit Authority 1954, the very first stainless steel subway car.   I believe some of SEPTA's early Silverliners are still in service, even older than the R-32's, but commuter, not subway cars.  

The original PATCO cars are definitely in service and are getting their second major overhaul and re-equipping.   They are just now preparing specs for a third generation of equipment, but this may be used to provide expansion, rather than replacement.

[al-in-chgo]

The Nebraska Zepnyr with an E-5 occasionally runs at the Illinois Ry Museum.   The 1962 R-32's are still in service in New York City, just now some being phased out.   Were equipped with air-conditioning about 25 years ago.   60-foot long, 10 ft. wide (minus an inch or two) bowling ally seating, four doors per side, small corner cabs.   Were known for their reliability.  These were the orginal large USA order of stainless steel rapid transit cars.    The BMT had its little five-section multi six truck articulated "Little Zephyr" in 1935 and operated mostly on Brooklyn's Franklin Avenue Shuttle, scrapped by the Transit Authority 1954, the very first stainless steel subway car.   I believe some of SEPTA's early Silverliners are still in service, even older than the R-32's, but commuter, not subway cars.  

The original PATCO cars are definitely in service and are getting their second major overhaul and re-equipping.   They are just now preparing specs for a third generation of equipment, but this may be used to provide expansion, rather than replacement.

 

I was very impressed with PATCO trains and PATCO service when at long last I got to ride the system this past October.  Exemplary, too, that the original cars are more than 40 years old and the second phase pushing thirty-five, and still running (without major overhauls?).