WELL BILEVELS ON NJT

[al-in-chgo]

Am dying to get back there and ride more NJT! 

 

[oltmannd]

Did two round trips from Hamilton to NYP this weekend.  Got to ride a bit of everything. Have to agree that those new multelevels are smooth and quiet.  Seating is nice, too.  So far, they are very clean.  Also rode on a one-from-the-newest vintage single level Comet.  It rode very nicely, but was a bit noisy and the interior, particularly the floor, was grimey.  Finally, rode in Arrow IIIs.  OK ride, good acceleration, but 80 mph top speed as previously mentioned.  One car had a lot of buzzing and vibration when taking power (transformer problem?).  Cars were very grimey except for the seats.

Rode reverse commute on Friday evening, then a late night return and a round trip on Saturday.  All four trains were heavily patronized.  Friday reverse commute trip had many standees into NYP.  Trains were large.  I think the Arrow III trains might have been 12 cars long and the others 10 cars.  I didn't get a good count.

I also rode the LIRR M7s from NYP out to Shea.  These were as nice as the NJT multilevels.  Smooth, quiet and comfortable.  The LIRR did an outstanding job of queing people up for "load and go" service out of Shea back to NYP after the Mets game. 

[paulsafety]

Hello,

Can anybody tell me if well-type bilevels are new on NJT's service in the NEC?  I rode one on October 11 and is was the smoothest and most-secure ride I may ever have had, except possibly for a Spanish Talgo.

Who makes 'em?  Will there be more of them?  Are they to be phased in on other NJT lines?  -  a. s.

August 13, 2008 -- NJT to add 50 cars to growing multilevel fleet --

New Jersey Transit Wednesday approved the purchase of 50 additional multilevel railcars to help meet current and anticipated ridership demand. The option increases NJT's overall multilevel order to 329; 170 multilevels already have delivered by Bombardier Transportation.

Gov. Jon Corzine, in a statement, praised the multilevels as a "near-term solution" to capacity issues faced by the state, particularly concerning access on the Northeast Corridor to New York.NJ Transit placed the first multilevels into service in December 2006.

NJT to add 50 cars to growing multilevel fleetNew Jersey Transit Wednesday approved the purchase of 50 additional multilevel railcars to help meet current and anticipated ridership demand. The option increases NJT's overall multilevel order to 329; 170 multilevels already have delivered by Bombardier Transportation.

"Exercising options in the contract with Bombardier Transportation to purchase additional vehicles was an easy decision given our ridership demands," said NJ Transit Executive Director Rich Sarles, who noted NJT "locked in the price back in 2002 for 13,000 more peak-period seats."

[paulsafety]

But I do wonder where the Comet VI generation cars are coming from.  Italy??

 

From Bombardier's web site (press release) --

"The stainless steel carbodies will be manufactured at Bombardier's La Pocatière, Québec, plant with final assembly at the Plattsburgh, NY plant."

Paul F.

[al-in-chgo]

The NJT fleet of multi level cars are officially Comet VI.

Thanks for the info.  The latest thing, indeed!   - a.s.

 

But I do wonder where the Comet VI generation cars are coming from.  Italy??

 

[al-in-chgo]

The NJT fleet of multi level cars are officially Comet VI.

Thanks for the info.  The latest thing, indeed!   - a.s.

 

[Bapou]

The NJT fleet of multi level cars are officially Comet VI.

[al-in-chgo]

naive and ambiguous guy that I am I call gallery cars doubledeckers too.

FWIW commuters in Chicagoland would understand what you mean, but they'd know you weren't from the area.  - a. s.

 

[gardendance]

naive and ambiguous guy that I am I call gallery cars doubledeckers too.

[al-in-chgo]

I pulled a dumb move last week. I took the NJT River Line from my home in Burlington, NJ to Trenton, intending to ride a double deck train.

I arrived Trenton a few minutes before 9am, went to the counter, bought my ticket. The agent said "9:14 track 1", so I sauntered to track 1. Behold a double deck train, no need to hang around the station watching single levels go by while I waited for a double deck.

So I boarded, then perused the schedule, and noticed there was a 9:04 LOCAL departure, that would arrive NY about 15 minutes AFTER my 9:14 EXPRESS. Now I was really elated, because in addition to being able to see the tops of Amtrak trains passing me, I'd also get to see the top of the local train as I passed it. I peeked over to the other tracks to get a look at the 9:04 departure. Guess what, 9:04 my train started moving, the conductor announced that I was on the local.

So I brilliantly thought I'll hop off a the next stop, Hamilton, and wait for the express follower, for surely if they put a double deck onto the local trip, they'll also have a double deck on the express. Guess again, the express was a single deck, as were the next 3 NY bound trains, and I saw no double deckers heading to Trenton while I stood at Hamilton.

Lesson there about the bird in the hand. By the way, I continue to call them double deckers, the thread title is "WELL BILEVELS", but they are actually "TRILEVELS", 1 level over each truck, between the trucks the depressed well level, on top of that the elevated 3rd level.

Thank you for proposing such a useful and unambiguous word.  I myself like "Double-Decker" a lot, especially since it distinguishes itself from "Galleries," the type of car Metra in Chicago runs.

[gardendance]

I pulled a dumb move last week. I took the NJT River Line from my home in Burlington, NJ to Trenton, intending to ride a double deck train.

I arrived Trenton a few minutes before 9am, went to the counter, bought my ticket. The agent said "9:14 track 1", so I sauntered to track 1. Behold a double deck train, no need to hang around the station watching single levels go by while I waited for a double deck.

So I boarded, then perused the schedule, and noticed there was a 9:04 LOCAL departure, that would arrive NY about 15 minutes AFTER my 9:14 EXPRESS. Now I was really elated, because in addition to being able to see the tops of Amtrak trains passing me, I'd also get to see the top of the local train as I passed it. I peeked over to the other tracks to get a look at the 9:04 departure. Guess what, 9:04 my train started moving, the conductor announced that I was on the local.

So I brilliantly thought I'll hop off a the next stop, Hamilton, and wait for the express follower, for surely if they put a double deck onto the local trip, they'll also have a double deck on the express. Guess again, the express was a single deck, as were the next 3 NY bound trains, and I saw no double deckers heading to Trenton while I stood at Hamilton.

Lesson there about the bird in the hand. By the way, I continue to call them double deckers, the thread title is "WELL BILEVELS", but they are actually "TRILEVELS", 1 level over each truck, between the trucks the depressed well level, on top of that the elevated 3rd level.

[daveklepper]

You are correct about the transformer taps, although fortunately the same transformer itself can be used.   I think the statement about inspection vs maintenance is nit-picking.  Of course when the locomotives or mu's are pulled for inspection, they are also maintained.   This is true for any railroad for any equipment.

Again, for the best balance between keeping equipment in service and preserving good performance as regard to acceleration and braking, especially in wet weather or with autumn leaves, motor trailer, or motor and two trailer, operation is preferred over all motor or coaches with locomotive operation.   This is one area where modern commuter electric railroading hasn't learned from experience.   The South Shore is an exception.   So is Acela, but that is a fixed consist, but I understand more than just the front and rear eight axles (four front and four rear) are powered.

[nanaimo73]

How are the PL42-AC locomotives performing ? Are more of them going to be acquired ?

[JT22CW]

I tried to find a simple answer; whomever wrote this Wikipedia article on the subject wrote it in a very technical format.  Basically, you need different types of transformer taps to operate on different voltages and frequencies, otherwise you'd either blow your motor(s) up or you won't get any current.

[al-in-chgo]

I've been meaning to ask:  What are "transformer taps" anyway?

 

[oltmannd]

Just to clear up some points here:

• It is Silverliner IVs and Arrow IIs that are of the "same vintage", both made by Budd in '74-'75. 
• The only MUs bought by New Jersey Transit Corporation in particular (and new) are the light rail vehicles.  The Arrows were bought by NJDOT specifically, for operation by Penn Central and later Conrail.
• Not all early Comets have yet been retired.  All Comet Is (Pullman Standard) rebuilt for high platforms continue to operate, often mixed with the Comet IBs; these two types are the remaining push-pull cars that lack "long doors" that cover the stairwell.  A sizable number of Comet I low-door cars have been bought by Utah Transit Authority for rebuilding to operate on their new commuter line; they are intended for use in tandem with BBD bilevels (and possibly gallery cars) on that railroad.
• No Arrow IIs were rebuilt into push-pull cars.  It was solely the Arrow Is that became the Comet IB.  The Comet IA (Metro-North) fleet was built from Arrow III bodyshells.
• NJT has not eschewed MUs in favor of push-pull to "save maintenance costs".  The reason(s) thereof are ostensibly to save on FRA inspection costs, as well as not have to take revenue seats out of service every three months.
• There are no MU multi-levels.  All multi-levels are push-pull.
• NJT has operated several types of electric motor during their history, from the GG1 (they were the last active operator, retiring their fleet in 1984) through the E44 (which were too tall for the North River Tunnels) and E60CH (more successful, but could not operate successfully in push mode with the Comet IIs for some reason), to the current ALP44 and ALP46.
• The Arrow III rebuild was done grudgingly by NJT, or so it appears to me; many of the features that had been proven successful on the Comet III were not incorporated (particularly the long doors and the ADA bathrooms, although they did receive the Comet III's more comfortable brown seating); although AC traction was installed, this was somehow botched, what with the original 100-mph speed limit being subsequently cut down to 80 mph due to mechanical problems therein introduced; the automatic variable-tap transformers were not installed, this being the reason why they could not be used on Midtown Direct even to this day (Arrows' transformer taps have to be manually changed at the Meadowlands Maintenance Complex); and thus far, the MUs remain to this day a political football.

As usual, I knew just enough to get myself in trouble!

[al-in-chgo]

Just to clear up some points here:

• It is Silverliner IVs and Arrow IIs that are of the "same vintage", both made by Budd in '74-'75. 
• The only MUs bought by New Jersey Transit Corporation in particular (and new) are the light rail vehicles.  The Arrows were bought by NJDOT specifically, for operation by Penn Central and later Conrail.
• Not all early Comets have yet been retired.  All Comet Is (Pullman Standard) rebuilt for high platforms continue to operate, often mixed with the Comet IBs; these two types are the remaining push-pull cars that lack "long doors" that cover the stairwell.  A sizable number of Comet I low-door cars have been bought by Utah Transit Authority for rebuilding to operate on their new commuter line; they are intended for use in tandem with BBD bilevels (and possibly gallery cars) on that railroad.
• No Arrow IIs were rebuilt into push-pull cars.  It was solely the Arrow Is that became the Comet IB.  The Comet IA (Metro-North) fleet was built from Arrow III bodyshells.
• NJT has not eschewed MUs in favor of push-pull to "save maintenance costs".  The reason(s) thereof are ostensibly to save on FRA inspection costs, as well as not have to take revenue seats out of service every three months.
• There are no MU multi-levels.  All multi-levels are push-pull.
• NJT has operated several types of electric motor during their history, from the GG1 (they were the last active operator, retiring their fleet in 1984) through the E44 (which were too tall for the North River Tunnels) and E60CH (more successful, but could not operate successfully in push mode with the Comet IIs for some reason), to the current ALP44 and ALP46.
• The Arrow III rebuild was done grudgingly by NJT, or so it appears to me; many of the features that had been proven successful on the Comet III were not incorporated (particularly the long doors and the ADA bathrooms, although they did receive the Comet III's more comfortable brown seating); although AC traction was installed, this was somehow botched, what with the original 100-mph speed limit being subsequently cut down to 80 mph due to mechanical problems therein introduced; the automatic variable-tap transformers were not installed, this being the reason why they could not be used on Midtown Direct even to this day (Arrows' transformer taps have to be manually changed at the Meadowlands Maintenance Complex); and thus far, the MUs remain to this day a political football.

Thanks for the update!  It can be so difficult for a noob like me to take stock of the rolling stock, what with all the different generations, political implications, etc.

I for one am very fond of the new bilevels.  Do others feel that way? 

[JT22CW]

Just to clear up some points here:

• It is Silverliner IVs and Arrow IIs that are of the "same vintage", both made by Budd in '74-'75. 
• The only MUs bought by New Jersey Transit Corporation in particular (and new) are the light rail vehicles.  The Arrows were bought by NJDOT specifically, for operation by Penn Central and later Conrail.
• Not all early Comets have yet been retired.  All Comet Is (Pullman Standard) rebuilt for high platforms continue to operate, often mixed with the Comet IBs; these two types are the remaining push-pull cars that lack "long doors" that cover the stairwell.  A sizable number of Comet I low-door cars have been bought by Utah Transit Authority for rebuilding to operate on their new commuter line; they are intended for use in tandem with BBD bilevels (and possibly gallery cars) on that railroad.
• No Arrow IIs were rebuilt into push-pull cars.  It was solely the Arrow Is that became the Comet IB.  The Comet IA (Metro-North) fleet was built from Arrow III bodyshells.
• NJT has not eschewed MUs in favor of push-pull to "save maintenance costs".  The reason(s) thereof are ostensibly to save on FRA inspection costs, as well as not have to take revenue seats out of service every three months.
• There are no MU multi-levels.  All multi-levels are push-pull.
• NJT has operated several types of electric motor during their history, from the GG1 (they were the last active operator, retiring their fleet in 1984) through the E44 (which were too tall for the North River Tunnels) and E60CH (more successful, but could not operate successfully in push mode with the Comet IIs for some reason), to the current ALP44 and ALP46.
• The Arrow III rebuild was done grudgingly by NJT, or so it appears to me; many of the features that had been proven successful on the Comet III were not incorporated (particularly the long doors and the ADA bathrooms, although they did receive the Comet III's more comfortable brown seating); although AC traction was installed, this was somehow botched, what with the original 100-mph speed limit being subsequently cut down to 80 mph due to mechanical problems therein introduced; the automatic variable-tap transformers were not installed, this being the reason why they could not be used on Midtown Direct even to this day (Arrows' transformer taps have to be manually changed at the Meadowlands Maintenance Complex); and thus far, the MUs remain to this day a political football.

[oltmannd]

NJTs current MUs (Arrows in NJT-speak) are were all purchased in the early to mid 1970s.  Since then, the have only purchased locomotive hauled coaches (Comets in NJT-speak) and only most recently, locomotive hauled bi-levels.

 

In which case, NJT must be giving its remaining m.u.'s tender loving care.  We rode m.u.'s to and from the end of the line at Gladstone two weeks ago and I promise we were hauled by pantograph to m.u.  --   no loco at either end.  The units were built by Bombardier, a trainman told me.  Presumably their electric works were rehabbed at some point between then and now.  - a. s.

Those were Arrow IIIs.  They were built by GE in 1977/78.   I don't know if they've had any major work on them or not, but I'd guess "not".  SEPTA's Silverliner IVs of the same vintage (most were built in 1974) have not been overhauled or rewired, although I've read somewhere that SEPTA is going out to bid for the work.

The insulation used on wiring since the early 70s is pretty tough stuff.  The majority of EMD Dash-2s are still running around with their original wiring.

[al-in-chgo]

NJTs current MUs (Arrows in NJT-speak) are were all purchased in the early to mid 1970s.  Since then, the have only purchased locomotive hauled coaches (Comets in NJT-speak) and only most recently, locomotive hauled bi-levels.

 

In which case, NJT must be giving its remaining m.u.'s tender loving care.  We rode m.u.'s to and from the end of the line at Gladstone two weeks ago and I promise we were hauled by pantograph to m.u.  --   no loco at either end.  The units were built by Bombardier, a trainman told me.  Presumably their electric works were rehabbed at some point between then and now.  - a. s.

[oltmannd]

NJTs current MUs (Arrows in NJT-speak) are were all purchased in the early to mid 1970s.  Since then, the have only purchased locomotive hauled coaches (Comets in NJT-speak) and only most recently, locomotive hauled bi-levels.

The earliest Arrows (I and II) were Budd built in the 1960s and replaced some of the PRR MP54s.  The Arrow IIIs are GE built and polished off what was left of the MP54s.  They are cousins to SEPTAs Silveliner IVs. 

The earliest Comets were Pullman-Standard built and paid for by NJDOT for diesel hauled trains on the EL.  These were the progenitors of the Amtrak Horizon cars.  This was pre-NJT.  The state also anted up for the U34CH diesels to pull them and provide the HEP.

Various incarnations of the P-S cars were purchased along the way by different builders with different configurations. i.e. the later versions have center doors.

Some of the Arrow I and II cars were de-motored and used as cab cars for locomotive powered trains.

The early Arrows and Comets are now gone from the NJT roster.

[al-in-chgo]

The two electric systems that NJT replaced used motor-trailer mu combinations,  the famous owl-faced Pennsy MP-54 motors and tp-54 control trailers, and the DL&W new (1926) motor cars and converted steam control trailers.   NJT first went to all motor car MU cars.   To save maintenance costs lately it has been purchasing only new electric locomotives and first single level and now double level coaches with cab-cars for push-pull operation.   But acceleration isn't quite up to mu operation.   I tjoml motor-trailer operation is the best combination.

 

So do I, especially for longer trains.  Am I correct in assuming that up until now (late October 2007), NJT's has taken delivery only of m.u. bilevels, not unpowered bilev trainsets or coaches? 

[daveklepper]

The two electric systems that NJT replaced used motor-trailer mu combinations,  the famous owl-faced Pennsy MP-54 motors and tp-54 control trailers, and the DL&W new (1926) motor cars and converted steam control trailers.   NJT first went to all motor car MU cars.   To save maintenance costs lately it has been purchasing only new electric locomotives and first single level and now double level coaches with cab-cars for push-pull operation.   But acceleration isn't quite up to mu operation.   I tjoml motor-trailer operation is the best combination.

[oltmannd]

30+ electric locomotives! 

Lots of info on NJT is here http://www.hobokenterminal.com/index.html

[al-in-chgo]

 

Thanks for the thorough and swift answer.  Since no good deed goes undone, if I may I'll open up the questions a bit:   

I know that NJT has diesel-electric engines pulling trains on some lines. Does it also use electric motors to haul its trains?  Or all they are m.u.'ed?

Sorry for the many questions but this is all quite new to me and fascinating.   - a. s.

 

[JT22CW]

Can anybody tell me if well-type bilevels are new on NJT's service in the NEC?  I rode one on October 11 and is was the smoothest and most-secure ride I may ever have had, except possibly for a Spanish Talgo.

I've never heard of the term "well-type".  I presume you mean low-floor, and in contrast to a gallery car.

Yes, they're quite new; came into service earlier this year or so.  Official name is "Multi-Level fleet".

Who makes 'em?

Bombardier.

Will there be more of them?

I would say yes.  There was some talk coming out of NJT over the summer that they wanted to go so far as to retire the Comet III fleet (which is about 1½ decades old!) and replace them with multi-levels.  This would be a mistake, from my POV.  (I also am not fond of the prospect of these replacing the remaining Arrow III MUs.)

Are they to be phased in on other NJT lines?

The intention AFAIK is for all lines to have them, including Atlantic City.  They've been tested while mixed with single-levels, also; but no "mixed" configurations currently operate in revenue service.

[al-in-chgo]

 

Hello,

Can anybody tell me if well-type bilevels are new on NJT's service in the NEC?  I rode one on October 11 and is was the smoothest and most-secure ride I may ever have had, except possibly for a Spanish Talgo.

Who makes 'em?  Will there be more of them?  Are they to be phased in on other NJT lines?  -  a. s.