maphillips wrote: tomikawaTT wrote: The Nashville station isn't 'downtown.' It's on the riverfront, well away from anything that could be described as a commercial hub. It's also nowhere near the major sports stadium - the one thing that might generate a train-riding crowd You are correct. I meant that they should have planned for the Nashville station to be at the site of the old L&N railroad station which is downtown and not on the riverfront. It used to have about 10-14 tracks I think and is the site of a hotel now. Nashville as a whole is probably a better candidate for an intercity train perhaps from Chicago or some intra state train connecting Memphis, Jackson, Nashville, Chattanooga and Knoxville. Amtrak should restart the Chicago Florida train that used to run in the 70s just to get a train going through there again.
tomikawaTT wrote: The Nashville station isn't 'downtown.' It's on the riverfront, well away from anything that could be described as a commercial hub. It's also nowhere near the major sports stadium - the one thing that might generate a train-riding crowd
You are correct. I meant that they should have planned for the Nashville station to be at the site of the old L&N railroad station which is downtown and not on the riverfront. It used to have about 10-14 tracks I think and is the site of a hotel now. Nashville as a whole is probably a better candidate for an intercity train perhaps from Chicago or some intra state train connecting Memphis, Jackson, Nashville, Chattanooga and Knoxville. Amtrak should restart the Chicago Florida train that used to run in the 70s just to get a train going through there again.
You must be working with an old map.
The Riverfront Station is accross the river from the Titans Stadium. Access is provided by the rebuilt Shelby ave Pedestrian Bridge. The MCS does provide service to Titan home games.
The problem is the TCry does not have an easy access to CSX rails. That will be required to get access to the old Union Station site. BTW Union Station is located near the CSX/NC&STL Kayne Yard. There's still some industry nearby (Tennessean Newspaper, etc).
It appears the state will require the MCS to be a part of the MTA/RTA city bus transit system. The MCS will get some state & local funds to cover the budget shortfall.
MP57313 wrote:Trains News Wire noted that the Music City Star's ridership is low, one year after the launch of the service. Other than the usual challenge of getting people to try the train - especially in an area that has had no rail service for 25 years - what is the railfan point of view as to why it is not that popular?Is the route too short, or too slow (not competitive with driving), or is it not convenient to employment centers? Since it runs on a shortline, I would not think freight train-caused delays would be much of a factor.
Trains News Wire noted that the Music City Star's ridership is low, one year after the launch of the service. Other than the usual challenge of getting people to try the train - especially in an area that has had no rail service for 25 years - what is the railfan point of view as to why it is not that popular?
Is the route too short, or too slow (not competitive with driving), or is it not convenient to employment centers? Since it runs on a shortline, I would not think freight train-caused delays would be much of a factor.
I'm not surprised the MCS has low ridership to date.
1) It's 40 miles from Riverfront to Lebanon, takes 1hour, $10 round trip. Compared to Metra, it's a short/slow/expensive ride. At least parking is free. There are 3 shuttle bus routes that go to the larger employers in town. (State government, Vanderbilt, etc)
2) The Nashville & Eastern shortline gets out of the way when the MCS is operating. It's a single track, curvy & windy route. It's no Racetrack!
3) Nashville & the MCS may be too far out of the way for most railfans. I doubt if the Tennessee Central was ever a popular route. Most likely, it's one road that should never have been built, since it tried to connect Nashville with Knoxville. I-40 is a lot busier. The TCry Museum should be better known with their Saturday excursions. They have a few talented folks to keep some ex-ATSF Budd cars running. THomas makes his annual visit near Labor Day.
4) Our "rush hour" may be no more than 2 hours inbound & outbound, daily, depending on accidents on the I's. Total travel time & co$t depends on the price of gas & parking.
5) The busiest corridors are SE on I-24, N or S on I-65, but CSX freight fills the old L&N rail lines. There is no good connection from the TC to L&N/CSX rails.
6) As a new carrier, the MCS had a problem in obtaining insurance. It cost $1Mil more than first estimated. Revenues are $1.7 less than needed. The State DOT may lend enough funds to cover most of that, but will require new management.
7) The value of the MCS is to show you can rebuild old ROW for about $1Mil per mile. The Gallery cars & F40's were in decent shape, mostly repainted to go into service. THe MCS got some more gallery cars from VRE, but those may be parts cars.
8)As a startup, the MCS runs 2 2-3 car trainsets+ 1 F40. Limited schedule, dosen't even need a timetable yet. The lack of advertising/support can be a problem. Get your tickest from the nearby Kroger store.
9) The experience of having a sellout jammed trains for the 4th of July celebration shows the locals are learning to take the train. Having refunds & a free ride may soothe hurt feelings.
Paul Milenkovic wrote: Model Railroader gave it coverage. One of the entrants in the Pike Size Passenger Trains contest was an N-scale model of the Music City Star. That is the reason I know such a thing exists in the 12" to the foot world.(Oops, I am going to get scolded and told to post this on the Model Railroader section.)
Model Railroader gave it coverage. One of the entrants in the Pike Size Passenger Trains contest was an N-scale model of the Music City Star. That is the reason I know such a thing exists in the 12" to the foot world.
(Oops, I am going to get scolded and told to post this on the Model Railroader section.)
Why? The information IS pertinent - and it's nice to know at least one entrant chose a prototype that didn't curl up and blow away half a century ago. I just wish there had been money and will enough to build and operate a more useful and comprehensive system.
As a former New Yorker who lived for many years in Tokyo, I'm fully aware that any operation that serves only commuters while ignoring shoppers and theater/sports travelers is standing with one foot on a banana peel.
Chuck
If GM "killed the electric car", what am I doing standing next to an EV-1, a half a block from the WSOR tracks?
It's too early to label Nashville's new commuter rail a "failure," but is there any other brand-new commuter rail, RT or LRT system in the last 30 - 40 years to have such a dicey start?
The people in Charlotte NC love their LYNX and it seems to be carrying above projections (at least when sports events are figured in.) Houston's LRT appears to be about shuttling people from one part of downtown to another; still, it has riders. People said Dallas - Fort Worth could never support light rail or commuter, but just look at TRE and DART. So it isn't just a Southern thing.
Jes' wonderin' . - a.s.
Have you emailed Trains (or the other magazine) about coverage?
My train videos - http://www.youtube.com/user/karldotcom
As a former inhabitant of the Nashville area who left town before the Music City Star started running, the whole idea always left me scratching my head.
The Nashville station isn't 'downtown.' It's on the riverfront, well away from anything that could be described as a commercial hub. It's also nowhere near the major sports stadium - the one thing that might generate a train-riding crowd.
Also, Nashville is not Los Angeles. Even at the height of rush hour, traffic along arteries parallel to the rails is reasonably fluid. The time-saving incentive simply isn't there.
Unlike the Field of Dreams, if you build a passenger rail route that doesn't offer real advantages to the public, they WON'T come
The Music City Star made the October 2007 cover story in Railfan & Railroad. Very nice 6 page article on the MCS. It may help answer some of your questions.
I'm a Nashvilian and I like our little commuter train. It is a fun short ride on a line that is lucky to have any kind of service. In some circles, the Tennesse Central/ Nashville & Eastern should never have been built. It's an independent poor short line running east & west in a North South world. Just ask CSX how busy they are in TN!
The line is curvy, windy, & goes to a smaller city in the Nashville metro region. THe only reason to build it was because it was relatively cheap to rebuild the whole line & get the cars for $1.00 each from Metra. The F40's were also cheap but useable. Pulling a short 2-3 car train will be a lot less taxing than any train Mettra runs. At least it is 98% on-time with 0 fatal accidents.
The future of MCS will require getting trains on the busy CSX freight lines. THe old line SE to Atlanta is one of the busiest in the system. There is a lot coming from the Memphis gateway.
For railfans, the N&E may not attract enough attention to get much action. The MCS runs are mostly set to run inbound in the AM then outbound in the PM. You'd have to spend most of the day at some attraction in Nashville. with a scanner, there would still be more CSX action. After Sept 11, Nashville hasn't been too railfan-friendly. Not that there are areas unsafe to avoid, they do watch carefully for tresspassers. Some locations don't have a good place to park & watch trains.
The downtown MCS station is on the riverfront. They do run some shuttle bus to the employment locations. A better bus/transfer station may be possible on CSX lines further west. Frankly, they need better promotion for the service they have.
Y'all come visit Nashville & ride our train! since it is 1/2 full, you can get a seat on the gallery car as it leads in/ trails out. Bring a camera, get all the pictures you want!
I'm not so sure about "faster and cheaper"... I seem to remember from a mass transit class I took long ago that a single seat ride was more important than those other two factors. Certainly, trip times (door to door) have to be competitive, and the price has to be right, but having to make connections really puts a damper on ridership.
I reread the Nashville paper article, and it seems to indicate that many riders have 3 seat rides! You have to take a shuttle from the train station to a bus terminal to catch a city bus to your work location. That's an awfully big hurdle to get someone born and bred in the auto culture over.
Maybe they need dedicated train station to employment center bus loops. Something like NJT does in Atlantic City might work out pretty well -- they keep growing the ridership on that line.
I know my own commute by express bus/HOV lane is slower by 15 minutes than driving in the AM and about equal to driving solo in the PM. The fares are very low, at the moment. Much less than gas and parking. But, I'd be willing to pay quite a bit more than gas, parking, insurance and depreciation just to avoid the hassle of driving. (I hope Gwinnett Transit and GRTA aren't listening)
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
I watched farms turn into valleys full of single family homes grouped by subdivision north of Toronto along the freeway over the years. All of those early risers will get in a car and head to the freeway in the morning and not a rail in sight. This will go for miles and miles north of that city.
No it's not unpatriotic, but it has to be done by someone with deep pockets. No one wants to be left holding the bag.
Safety Valve wrote: Transit only works if you get the workers to the jobsite and home faster and cheaper than they would do it with a auto.
Transit only works if you get the workers to the jobsite and home faster and cheaper than they would do it with a auto.
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I quite agree, Safety Valve, and somewhat on the topic of reliability Chicago's Metra system last year introduced a program that is guaranteed to get people home. If, say, a Metra pass-holder needs emergency medical attention in the Loop and missed the train and there isn't one anytime soon (or if pass-holder is temporarily disabled as to walking distance), Metra will pay for a cab to get back home, or to the commuter station where the commuter had parked that morning.
This is a very generous offer by Chicago norms. I have worked in offices that offered to pay for a cab for late-nite overtime workers--as far as the Chicago city limits. But of course many if not most support staff in the law firms I've worked come from outside of Chicago -- especially those that take commuter trains home, as opposed to CTA. Probably the program isn't invoked all that much -- the new policy requires proof of medical or other emergency (Metra wouldn't want people lolligagging around Macy's to cash in on a "free" trip home). It's a nice covenant, though.
See -- rail commutation should make your life less stressed and inconvenient rather than more. You know, in Greater Toronto the one-car family is still the norm for most middle-income suburbanites. Partly it's because the service by feeder bus and GO trains is superb -- but I think the fact that the downtown T.O. government virtually stopped zoning office buildings for private stall parking had a lot to do with "subtly encouraging" even well-heeled commuters into making public transit the norm. As a result, I am told, the status symbol for suburban Torontonians (unlike Chicago) is not having paid car parking -- it is owning something like a Honda Goldwing for commutation on good days. For motorcycles they have room!
Would it be unpatriotic of me to suggest that sooner is better than later for setting up reliable rail + feeder bus transit in the USA too? - a. s.
I see Nashville as a tough area. If they want ridership, they need to lay tracks everywhere I-40 goes, run 24/7 with a timely schedule.. say 20 minutes between trains at ANY station. and totally provide access to the necessary things like Post office, hospitals etc...
The Grand Ole Opery is nice but not necessary to the stressed out and roadraging commutor stuck in a gridlock on I40 downtown.
If there is ever transit in my area, they are going to need to beat my commute time to little rock, do it faster, 24/7 and less cost than what I pay for gasoline. Im just happy that I dont have to pay draconian parking fees or fight for that last spot in a stuffed tower like I recall doing in my early work years back home in the city.
Otherwise Im sticking to my auto. There are lots of smaller roads to take than that obselete and overcrowded interstate. But in my area, those smaller roads have slowly filled up with 80 mph maniacs revelling in the freedom from the 5 mph braking contest on the freeway.
oltmannd wrote: From what I've read, the main problem is that the terminal in Nashville is too far from major employment centers. Nashville has a pretty sprawled out downtown since there is no rail transit for it to have grown around. Two seat rides are the bane of transit, particularly when one of them is a lengthy, uncomfortable city bus or shuttle bus ride.The slow speed doesn't help, either. If the total door to door commute time is too much longer than driving, people will put up with the congestion and cost of driving to get more time at home.It's amazing to me that they have the ridership they do have.
From what I've read, the main problem is that the terminal in Nashville is too far from major employment centers. Nashville has a pretty sprawled out downtown since there is no rail transit for it to have grown around.
Two seat rides are the bane of transit, particularly when one of them is a lengthy, uncomfortable city bus or shuttle bus ride.
The slow speed doesn't help, either. If the total door to door commute time is too much longer than driving, people will put up with the congestion and cost of driving to get more time at home.
It's amazing to me that they have the ridership they do have.
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IMHO, low ridership is poor because while getting stuck on Interstate 40 into town with half your co-workers is unfortunate, having to adhere to a rigid schedule -- even though you wouldn't mind working late but are stuck downtown without a car and the train only runs a couple of times a day -- is imprudent. Or might look lazy in our Calvinist culture.
I hope the problem isn't with the equipment, as I understand the diesels and gallery coaches are both ex-Metra, but in good shape and well rehabbed.
What might make the line catch on? An ice storm that will scare people to stay at home more than one day, unless they catch the train. Or HUGE daily traffic tie-ups (they've got some doozies already). Or MAJOR road reconstruction of the type we're having here in Chicago with the complete re-construction and updating of the Dan Ryan Expy (I-90/94).
Even then, will this impromtu commuting on the Nashville Music Express be anything other than a one-day wonder for most folks?
As economists have said for over thirty years, it isn't enough to subsidize mass transit, the private car must be more difficult and/or expensive to use.
Me, I'd go to extra trouble. That's because like many if not most of you, I enjoy the train-riding experience in and of itself. However, at least here in Chicago, most of the Metra commuters would drop it in a moment if there were no tolls to pay, no $250-plus-per-month parking stalls, fewer road jams.
I'm just sayin', I'm not advocating to avoid the train. Be a good guy and take the train anyway, and eventually it will catch on. One hopes.
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