I read a report that stated CSX was trading 75 SD40-2s for a new locomotive order and placing more of the 40-2s in storage. Is this end of an era on the CSX?
(Fourth Statement down under June 23, 2007)
http://www.midwestrailfan.com/MOTIVEPOWER.html
Wow! I've been seeing CSX SD40-2s running in my neck of the woods (Tampa Bay area) for years now. They've been a remarkable testimony to EMD durability. I'm glad that I've gotten to see these locomotive legends in action.
About 2 years ago, a trio of locomotives (two UP GEs and a CSX SD40-2 stopped right in front of me as I was standing outside of a furniture repair building. I spoke with the friendly conductor that was standing on the SD40-2s back porch. He told me that this particular unit was not running well and the crew was "nursing it" to get it to function in the lashup. I knew that was a sure sign that SD40-2s, in general, had racked an outstanding number of miles.
"I like my Pullman Standards & Budds in Stainless Steel flavors, thank you!"
Railfan1 wrote:I read a report that stated CSX was trading 75 SD40-2s for a new locomotive order and placing more of the 40-2s in storage. Is this end of an era on the CSX?(Fourth Statement down under June 23, 2007)http://www.midwestrailfan.com/MOTIVEPOWER.html
Yep and good riddance. Those new GEVOs are fine running machines.
I just saw a CSX phosphate train running in Tampa. The lead unit was an SD40-2, followed by an SD70M.
That SD40-2 was in the old "Bright Future" scheme. Paint's completely faded. I'm assuming that some time soon this unit will be up for sale or headed for the scrapper.
Good riddance? Why?
The SD40-2 was the most popular 6 axle railroad workhorse in the U.S and Canada for 2 decades. IMHO, it has been a symbolic testimony to the quality put out by EMD. It will soon disappear from our mainlines and seen mostly on videos, photos books/magazines. I'm very glad that I got to see and appreciate these brutes in action.
The SD40-2 is the quintessential American diesel-electric locomotive. The fact they're still in mainline use, when the newest one is over 21, is a testament to their enduring quality. Unfortunately, it's likely to be an economic decision to park many of these fine machines, due to fuel economy and whatnot. I'm quite sure they'll be around in some form or another for perhaps the rest of my life (I'm 38 now).
One has to think though - those GEVO units with their new locomotive smell have to be smooth running machines now - but what about in 10 years? What's the reliability record on them going to be 10 years from now? They're getting 16 cylinder power out of 12 cylinders - is this at the sacrifice of usage down the road? Will these hold up as well as the equal-powered, but less-per-cylinder 16s?
My guess is that in 21 years, we will see more SD70ACe machines plying their duty than GEVOs, not necessarily because more were built (actually much less at current rates), but because EMD has a proven engine design. 3,800 SD40-2s can't be wrong.
AntonioFP45 wrote:Good riddance? Why?
Apparently you have never spent time on one. In notch 8. How about in notch 8 pulling tonnage up a 20 mile grade? They are loud, noisy and cramped. They are cold in the winter and hot in the summer. The cab leaks more air than it keeps out. They are fuel hogs compared to the GEVOs. They pollute the environment with their filthy exhaust (and you thought I wasn't a sensitive guy) Oh yea, did I mention they are loud in notch 8?
AntonioFP45 wrote: I'm very glad that I got to see and appreciate these brutes in action.
I'm very glad that I got to see and appreciate these brutes in action.
Compared to an C44AC or GEVO they are rather wimpy. When coupled to a C60AC they look about the size of a N guage toy.
silicon212 wrote:The SD40-2 is the quintessential American diesel-electric locomotive. The fact they're still in mainline use, when the newest one is over 21, is a testament to their enduring quality.
The SD40-2 is the quintessential American diesel-electric locomotive. The fact they're still in mainline use, when the newest one is over 21, is a testament to their enduring quality.
You forgot to mention that they are all running around on total replacement parts (many of which were made by GE)
silicon212 wrote: One has to think though - those GEVO units with their new locomotive smell have to be smooth running machines now - but what about in 10 years? What's the reliability record on them going to be 10 years from now? They're getting 16 cylinder power out of 12 cylinders - is this at the sacrifice of usage down the road? Will these hold up as well as the equal-powered, but less-per-cylinder 16s?
If you bother to check the specs on a GEVO you would see that they are larger displacement engines than the EMD 710, so they actually produce less engine stress per horsepower per volume displacement. Besides, the block, crank, pistons, etc on the GEVO are much more massive than the EMD 710. Its the 4300 HP 710 that I worry about falling apart in 10 years, not the GEVO.
silicone212 wrote: My guess is that in 21 years, we will see more SD70ACe machines plying their duty than GEVOs, not necessarily because more were built (actually much less at current rates), but because EMD has a proven engine design. 3,800 SD40-2s can't be wrong.
Well that's the problem, you are guessing at this stuff as a railfan, not working with it.
The bottom line is this: We are making plans to remove most of the "classic" EMDs that you railfans love (but most of the crews and accountants are really starting to hate) from active service as fast as possible. We're even making plans to eventually replace the "new" (and totally crappy) 70MACs. Most of them will be replaced by new GEs. Of course, we will have to throw EMD a bone now and again just to keep GE honest, but I can say this: nobody (and I mean nobody) in the industry really wants to buy new EMDs. We would all be happy with a fleet of GEVOs.
Another reason the RR industry is losing faith in EMD: They are currently laying off 10%-15% of their workforce, and rumors are flying around the industry that they will be on the auction block yet again. Who wants to buy from a company nobody wants to own? GE is talking about hybrid locomotives for the future, the "new" EMD is still having problems making a quality locomotive from a hand-me-down GM design from the 1960's.
GP40-2 wrote:If you bother to check the specs on a GEVO you would see that they are larger displacement engines than the EMD 710, so they actually produce less engine stress per horsepower per volume displacement. Besides, the block, crank, pistons, etc on the GEVO are much more massive than the EMD 710. Its the 4300 HP 710 that I worry about falling apart in 10 years, not the GEVO.
Yes, the GEVO had better have a larger displacement engine - it's a 4 stroke - that means it's making power with every OTHER revolution of the crank, not every revolution such as EMD's two stroke.
4,300 HP 710s have been with us for over a decade.
edbenton wrote:Silicon that right there is the PROBLEM. EMD has not designed a NEW block successfully SINCE the 567 series in the 30's that is right the 710 series can be traced back to the origanal 567 that was used in the FT from 1939. Yes the metals and engineering have improved but how much more pressure can you expect that blkock to handle. The last new block they tried the H-Series was a disaster and a total failure in service. GE on the other hand knew the FDL was at its limit at 4400 HP and came up with the HDL and that at 6000 HP was a good unit you do not see CSX or UP retiring those units do you. They also were able to remove the back 4 cylinders and get 4400HP out of that same engine. Let me see here 12 cylinders that are making 4400 HP at a LOWER RPM verus a block design that has not been changed since BEFORE WW2 and it takes more fuel and spins faster also costs more to run. Which one if I am an accountant and the rew like the other one better namely GE am I going to order since it will save me money.
Ed,
You didn't mention the 645, which perhaps you don't consider as a "new design" since it was bascically a bored/restroked upgraded 567. But look at the success EMD had with the 12 and 16 cylinder 645 for a number of years. The SD40-2 and GP38-2 were solid performers that raised the bar.
EMD's current plight is ironically sad, especially when looking back to the 1970s. Back then, comparing GE road locomotives to EMD road locomotives was virtually "no contest".
GP40-2,
Just my view. Yes, the SD40-2 is smaller than today's 6 axle road locomotives, but by no means is it tiny.
I understand your perspective as a professional. For their time they were incredible machines, but for today's standards they are far less comfortable and efficient than modern units.
But because they paid for themselves years ago and there are still EMD 645 series parts available from cannabilized units, it makes sense that Class 1 and Class 2 railroads are going to continue to milk out more miles from 2nd Gen EMD units until increasing maintenance costs warrant their retirement.
"I Often Dream of Trains"-From the Album of the Same Name by Robyn Hitchcock
I've run SD70s, ES44s, and the like....I'll take a SD40-2 anyday, provided the doors and windows close and the toliet doesn't stink.
Many of my crews feel the same way.
Nick
Take a Ride on the Reading with the: Reading Company Technical & Historical Society http://www.readingrailroad.org/
carknocker1 wrote:Having worked with both the old and new locos , the new GE's are good road engines , but they are lousy on locals and yard jobs . Old EMD's make better engines in this kind of service , so they will have a place for awhile , but this brings up another point , no one makes a new yard locomotive and this will come back to haunt the railroads once the old EMD's are gone .
Actually, new yard switchers are being built. NRE, MPI and Railpower are all going after this market. NRE and Railpower have been building a fair number of gen-set locomotives and MPI has more conventional designs with Cat, EMD or Detroit Diesel/MTU engines.
This is true but to date I have seen so little of these locomotives at work ,
time will tell.
edbenton wrote: Let me see here 12 cylinders that are making 4400 HP at a LOWER RPM verus a block design that has not been changed since BEFORE WW2 and it takes more fuel and spins faster also costs more to run.
GEVO 12-cylinder - 1050RPM Notch 8.
EMD 16-710G3C-T2 950RPM Notch 8.
I'm sorry, I just don't see it. Some people say that 2-stroke engines are not as efficient as 4-stroke engines. That is very true when you look at your gasoline-powered chainsaw or weed whacker, but it does not apply to diesel engines. In fact, the WORLD's most EFFICIENT internal combustion engine is, you guessed it, a 2-stroke diesel that powers a container ship.
Don't get me wrong here, I enjoy seeing consists of ES44AC locomotives, and I see a lot of them here in Phoenix, but some of the stuff going around about GE vs EMD is bunk, and it cuts both ways.
In the end, GE is here to stay and I am happy for it. On the other hand, EMD is not the 'junk' that people make them out to be here. While it may be true that the SD40-2 units are getting retired and replaced with GE, my whole point here is reliability. We don't know where the GEVO will be in 10 years, it's a relatively new design. I'm not saying that because I am a GE hater - I'm not. My opinion also held true for the LSx engine design that Chevrolet replaced their old SB with - but now that's been around 10 years and it has proven itself. On the EMD front, we do know where they will be with the 16-710G3C engine in 10 years, because the 4,300 HP 710G3C has already been with us 12 years.
Then again, the newest of those SD40-2 units are now approaching 22 years of age, the oldest - 35 years, they HAVE been overhauled several times, and they HAVE lasted this long. There's always a market here for used EMD.
today at 2pm rochelle a up stacker 125 cont with 2 sd40s pulled out of global 3 yard . in galesburg sf main 2 sd40s hustling a stacker last week. these wont quit.
can see crews perspective of what engine is comfort.
talked to enginers on both up bnsf and they like the gm aces better than the gvos.
emd is makin money n profits,they will be around a spell
For the record, as a railfan and photographer, I hate the GEVOs. They are so asthetically unappealing. If you have photographed one, you have photographed them all. The SD40-2 however is a locomotive with character - second best to the SD60.
Anyway, my question is after all of the old EMD GP38's, 40's, 50's, 60's and the SD40's are retired, what is going to happen to the local switching operations? You see today's road locomotives as tomorrow's local switchers, but I just don't see a 200 ton GEVO rolling down the rickety sidings and industrial spurs twenty years from now without some major track upgrades!
I have yet to see any of the newer industrial switchers that some of you have talked about. And was I dreaming, or did up until recently EMD offer a light duty switching locomotive?
saxmusicman wrote:... I just don't see a 200 ton GEVO rolling down the rickety sidings and industrial spurs twenty years from now without some major track upgrades!
... I just don't see a 200 ton GEVO rolling down the rickety sidings and industrial spurs twenty years from now without some major track upgrades!
fuzzybroken wrote: saxmusicman wrote: ... I just don't see a 200 ton GEVO rolling down the rickety sidings and industrial spurs twenty years from now without some major track upgrades! ...According to someone else, the UP doesn't even have CWR on its mainline on the Adams Sub, since it would take upgrading of far too many grade crossings to make CWR installation worthwhile...!!!
saxmusicman wrote: ... I just don't see a 200 ton GEVO rolling down the rickety sidings and industrial spurs twenty years from now without some major track upgrades!
Same thing on the UP Phoenix Line. From McQueen west, the mainline is jointed track, last upgraded in the 1950s.
However, from McQueen eastward to a point between Magma and Coolidge, the track is CWR, having been built by Morrison-Knudsen in the mid 1960s.
Jointed or CWR, it's all CF&I "head free" 113 lb rail.
>>The last new block they tried the H-Series was a disaster and a total failure in service. GE on the other hand knew the FDL was at its limit at 4400 HP and came up with the HDL and that at 6000 HP was a good unit you do not see CSX or UP retiring those units do you. <<
The EMD 265H prime mover is no worse than the GE HDL. GE nolonger offers the HDL prime mover. The HDL was redesigned twice, first after the first prime mover was shipped to the US due to the fact that its physical dimensions were too large, the second time to try and strenthen the engine block and turbochargers due to severe vibration problems. There were the connecting rod problems which resulted in the CSX AC6000CW fleet being derated to 4400-4700hp for quite a while while GE tried to correct the problem. These units are mechanical failures and the reason they are still in service is due to GE being the one who covers the tab on these units. For GE, the HDL prime mover was a massive failure and they have been involved in lawsuits with the company they partnered with to design and build this diesel. The prime mover which is now in the GE GEVO locomotives is a completely redesigned version of the HDL. On the outside they may look the same, but everything is different between the two on the inside. The biggest change was a completely redesigned crankcase which was a big problem in the HDL. GE chose to go with a new prime mover rather than an FDL in its future locomotives due to the fact that there would have to be major modifications made to the FDL for it to be made compliant with the Tier II emissions standards.
For EMD, the 265H was a learning experience as well. The actual prime mover was debugged, being redesigned early on to correct engine block walls which were too thin and to solve cooling issues but problems within the electrical system of the SD90MAC-H have been the major issue with that locomotive. The 265H has quietly continued in developement and will be powering a new 6000hp unit for China which goes into production this year and will likely show up in a new domestic model within the next couple of years as the EPA emissions standards become stricter.
Bryan Jones
BRC has 5 hump pushers comprised of a de-rated SD40-2 and a six-motor slug, I believe that de-rated SD40/SD40-2's are more common than you think.
As far as new switchers: MPI, NRE and Railpower are going after this market with gen-sets of various sizes and conventional designs with Cat and other prime movers. So far, they're mostly in Texas and California because of environmental regs but I'm sure they will eventually turn up elsewhere because of upcoming EPA regs. NS also has some on their roster.
The real end of the SD40-2 era would be the 40-2's leaving CPRail. They had one of the most extensive rosters of SD40-2's (5500 series to 6000 series with some other units in between). If the SD40-2's began leaving CPRail, the era would truly be over...
...But that isn't going to happen, at least for a while :).
rangerjim95 wrote:... There will still be a place for these engines as long as there are jobs that are not suited for today's newer power. I wonder if any converted for passenger use would be a viable commuter/passenger engine?
CPRail modeler wrote:The real end of the SD40-2 era would be the 40-2's leaving CPRail. They had one of the most extensive rosters of SD40-2's (5500 series to 6000 series with some other units in between). If the SD40-2's began leaving CPRail, the era would truly be over......But that isn't going to happen, at least for a while :).
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